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The question this begs is, "Have you"? It is difficult to believe you can speak credibly to these circumstances unless you yourself have lived under such conditions. I'll give you, if you do live in Ireland, there have been times in the last 30 years -- more than your lifetime -- that such circumstances arose for a short time. However, your parents lived through a turmoil far more violent than you would have experienced in your own life, so again, the question again is, how can you speak credibly, and ask such questions, if you yourself haven't experienced them?
My father was beaten nearly to death in his own home. My mother and I suffered sectarian abuse for nearly twenty years. We had to relocate several times because my little brother and I would get stones thrown at us in the streets. I've been beaten up I don't know how many times. My best friend's father was shot fourteen times with an assault rifle at his front door. My grandfather was shot twice by the British army. I've had friends who've had their "knees done" by paramilitary organizations, had to have reconstructive surgery because they've been beaten so badly, shot with rubber bullets. They take you down to some dark alleyway, push you up against a wall, and put a bullet through the back of each knee.
I remember driving up the coast and there was a slogan on one of the footbridges above, that read "our snipers shoot on sight". I remember my friend being pushed up against a wall at the back of an old house and having his arm snapped with a baseball bat. A close family friend had her father shot dead in her front living room, while she watched. They told her "if you tell anyone about this, you'll be next". For years I couldn't (like many people) walk through parts of the city because of the religious banner attached to me, even though I've never been religious. I've had gangs of ten or more jump me on my walk home from work. "We see you here again and we'll kill you".
My ex girlfriend's mother and father (as well as my own) couldn't get a job for years because of a cultural employment policy that discriminated against them. Family friends turned to dealing drugs or slinging bric-a-brac for the same reasons.
When I was three, the family next door lobbed broken bricks over my back fence and nearly killed my little brother. At the age of fifteen I was diagnosed with PTSD and had severe panic attacks for years.
I've been beat up, bullied, abused, kicked around, discriminated against, threatened, mocked, ridiculed, demeaned. I've had to up and leave my home because of thugs that spraypainted threatening messages on our front wall. We would walk to the shops and they spat at our feet. I've had many a friend commit suicide (is it any wonder why?). I've had to work hard to educate myself, to buy my own clothes, pay for my own travel, my own social life, my own things, from the age of 15, because I lived in poverty most of my life; my family could just about afford the rent, food and utilities bills. If I wanted to escape it all, I had to work hard for it.
You know kids here, as young as three, have a worryingly high rate of depression compared to nearly every other developed nation in Europe. I've been through that, too.
And it's only given me more sympathy for others who have to face things like that; immigrants, refugees, victims of conflict. It doesn't help to mistreat these people. Conflict doesn't cease by conflict.
You know, the Troubles ended officially in 1998. I was born well before that, and I've seen some pretty horrific things. Just because I didn't live through the very worst of it, when bombs were going off daily, doesn't mean it disappeared the moment they signed the agreement. It didn't. It still hasn't. There has been animosity in this country since the moment it was partitioned, and on some level, it probably won't ever go away.
Shootings, beatings, murders, threats, vandalism, sectarianism. It all still happens.
I remember driving up the coast and there was a slogan on one of the footbridges above, that read "our snipers shoot on sight". I remember my friend being pushed up against a wall at the back of an old house and having his arm snapped with a baseball bat. A close family friend had her father shot dead in her front living room, while she watched. They told her "if you tell anyone about this, you'll be next". For years I couldn't (like many people) walk through parts of the city because of the religious banner attached to me, even though I've never been religious. I've had gangs of ten or more jump me on my walk home from work. "We see you here again and we'll kill you".
My ex girlfriend's mother and father (as well as my own) couldn't get a job for years because of a cultural employment policy that discriminated against them. Family friends turned to dealing drugs or slinging bric-a-brac for the same reasons.
When I was three, the family next door lobbed broken bricks over my back fence and nearly killed my little brother. At the age of fifteen I was diagnosed with PTSD and had severe panic attacks for years.
I've been beat up, bullied, abused, kicked around, discriminated against, threatened, mocked, ridiculed, demeaned. I've had to up and leave my home because of thugs that spraypainted threatening messages on our front wall. We would walk to the shops and they spat at our feet. I've had many a friend commit suicide (is it any wonder why?). I've had to work hard to educate myself, to buy my own clothes, pay for my own travel, my own social life, my own things, from the age of 15, because I lived in poverty most of my life; my family could just about afford the rent, food and utilities bills. If I wanted to escape it all, I had to work hard for it.
You know kids here, as young as three, have a worryingly high rate of depression compared to nearly every other developed nation in Europe. I've been through that, too.
And it's only given me more sympathy for others who have to face things like that; immigrants, refugees, victims of conflict. It doesn't help to mistreat these people. Conflict doesn't cease by conflict.
You know, the Troubles ended officially in 1998. I was born well before that, and I've seen some pretty horrific things. Just because I didn't live through the very worst of it, when bombs were going off daily, doesn't mean it disappeared the moment they signed the agreement. It didn't. It still hasn't. There has been animosity in this country since the moment it was partitioned, and on some level, it probably won't ever go away.
Shootings, beatings, murders, threats, vandalism, sectarianism. It all still happens.
It only matters what I take out of it. I've seen first hand how horrible people can be. I've also seen conflict dwindle down to what is, in relative terms, peace, compared to what it used to be. And I watched the process by which that came to happen. There's no peace unless you're willing to make it happen. I'm not sectarian, I never have been. I've got plenty of reason to be -- there's a lot that's happened in my life that meant I could just have easily have picked up a gun and chosen a side, but I didn't -- and thankfully, the younger generations seem to care less and less about old disagreements.
It's the older generations who hold bitterness about it, and that's true of most conficts.
Young Irish, young British, young Americans, young Germans, they're a lot more willing to accommodate these refugees, and it's probably because they look at the mistakes of their parents, and their parents' parents, and want to do things differently.
It's the older generations who hold bitterness about it, and that's true of most conficts.
Young Irish, young British, young Americans, young Germans, they're a lot more willing to accommodate these refugees, and it's probably because they look at the mistakes of their parents, and their parents' parents, and want to do things differently.
You don't live in Northern Ireland, so I don't expect you to understand, but religion is not just about what Church you go to here, it's a socially ingrained bipartite culture. Protestantism is, in the social psyche, inextricably linked with British Loyalism, while Catholicism is inextricably linked with Irish Republicanism. Even if a person wasn't religious, in that they didn't attend church, didn't pray, didn't believe in God, it didn't matter, and it still doesn't.
If you come from a Protestant/Loyalist family (if your mother and father were Protestant, and note, that may only be Protestant by cultural label, not practicing Protestant) or you came from a Protestant or Loyalist area (I'm sure you've heard of the geographical segregation in Northern Ireland) then that's what you were too -- Protestant, Loyalist. And that meant that you weren't welcome, for the most part, in Catholic areas. Likewise, if your parents or your geographic location or your heritage was Catholic, Irish Republican, then that's what you were, too.
You didn't (and still don't, really) get Protestant Irish Republicans, or Catholic British Loyalists. It just doesn't happen. It's a taboo. My mother was a Protestant and my father a Catholic. It would have been bad enough to live in a Protestant area if you were a Catholic family, but a mixed family? A Protestant "Fenian"-lover and a Catholic Prod-lover and their bastard half-halfer kid? Na. Unacceptable.
If you come from a Protestant/Loyalist family (if your mother and father were Protestant, and note, that may only be Protestant by cultural label, not practicing Protestant) or you came from a Protestant or Loyalist area (I'm sure you've heard of the geographical segregation in Northern Ireland) then that's what you were too -- Protestant, Loyalist. And that meant that you weren't welcome, for the most part, in Catholic areas. Likewise, if your parents or your geographic location or your heritage was Catholic, Irish Republican, then that's what you were, too.
You didn't (and still don't, really) get Protestant Irish Republicans, or Catholic British Loyalists. It just doesn't happen. It's a taboo. My mother was a Protestant and my father a Catholic. It would have been bad enough to live in a Protestant area if you were a Catholic family, but a mixed family? A Protestant "Fenian"-lover and a Catholic Prod-lover and their bastard half-halfer kid? Na. Unacceptable.
V
Thanks for the explanation.
As to the emboldened portion of your post in the above quote, I actually do "get it." Though our family has been in the U.S. (or, as it was known then, "the colonies") for eight generations, we originated in the Catholic enclaves of Belfast.
Three of my ancestors were brothers, and Catholic. Rightly or wrongly, they were labeled horse thieves. They were given the choice of the rope, or the colonies.They obviously chose the colonies. Since then, our family has been primarily Baptist, from six generations back until now.
So yes, I do understand. And you have expressed the experience eloquently. I wanted to see this stated, and you have done so.
As to the emboldened portion of your post in the above quote, I actually do "get it." Though our family has been in the U.S. (or, as it was known then, "the colonies") for eight generations, we originated in the Catholic enclaves of Belfast.
Three of my ancestors were brothers, and Catholic. Rightly or wrongly, they were labeled horse thieves. They were given the choice of the rope, or the colonies.They obviously chose the colonies. Since then, our family has been primarily Baptist, from six generations back until now.
So yes, I do understand. And you have expressed the experience eloquently. I wanted to see this stated, and you have done so.
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Thanks for the explanation.
As to the emboldened portion of your post in the above quote, I actually do "get it." Though our family has been in the U.S. (or, as it was known then, "the colonies") for eight generations, we originated in the Catholic enclaves of Belfast.
Three of my ancestors were brothers, and Catholic. Rightly or wrongly, they were labeled horse thieves. They were given the choice of the rope, or the colonies.They obviously chose the colonies. Since then, our family has been primarily Baptist, from six generations back until now.
So yes, I do understand. And you have expressed the experience eloquently. I wanted to see this stated, and you have done so.
As to the emboldened portion of your post in the above quote, I actually do "get it." Though our family has been in the U.S. (or, as it was known then, "the colonies") for eight generations, we originated in the Catholic enclaves of Belfast.
Three of my ancestors were brothers, and Catholic. Rightly or wrongly, they were labeled horse thieves. They were given the choice of the rope, or the colonies.They obviously chose the colonies. Since then, our family has been primarily Baptist, from six generations back until now.
So yes, I do understand. And you have expressed the experience eloquently. I wanted to see this stated, and you have done so.
I'm wondering, though, how does it feel to be a devout, America Christian solely because your ancestors stole (or didn't steal) some horses? Lol I'm sure there's some irony we could poke at in there somewhere.
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Omni,
I'm very sorry you had to deal with all of that, and grow up with such suffering.
I was fortunate enough to grow up in a peaceful place,
but I've spent time in a lot of dangerous countries, and I know how bad things can be.
I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through all of that.
Nonetheless, our personal experiences, however severe,
have nothing to do with the philosophical issue of whether or not there is a God.
There either is, or is not, a God.
This matter has nothing to do with our subjective experiences.
It is a finite question, with a finite answer.
It's like math.
Two plus two is still four regardless of how I feel.
It is the same with God.
He either exists, or he doesn't, quite regardless of our difficult experiences.
To be perfectly honest, those terrible experiences you had actually VALIDATE many principles of scripture.
Scripture says that mankind is a fallen race, and all men are sinners.
I would think YOU, of all people, would understand that concept first hand.
I'm very sorry you had to deal with all of that, and grow up with such suffering.
I was fortunate enough to grow up in a peaceful place,
but I've spent time in a lot of dangerous countries, and I know how bad things can be.
I'm genuinely sorry you had to go through all of that.
Nonetheless, our personal experiences, however severe,
have nothing to do with the philosophical issue of whether or not there is a God.
There either is, or is not, a God.
This matter has nothing to do with our subjective experiences.
It is a finite question, with a finite answer.
It's like math.
Two plus two is still four regardless of how I feel.
It is the same with God.
He either exists, or he doesn't, quite regardless of our difficult experiences.
To be perfectly honest, those terrible experiences you had actually VALIDATE many principles of scripture.
Scripture says that mankind is a fallen race, and all men are sinners.
I would think YOU, of all people, would understand that concept first hand.
Evil men have ALWAYS killed each other...
both in ancient times, and modern times.
And all men, everywhere, use whatever excuse is convenient... often it is religion.
But evil men will use any excuse to fight, and kill, and destroy each other...
because that is the nature of man.
This still has nothing to do with the solitary issue of whether or not God exists.
The fact that you have seen so much evil is a validation of scripture.
The scripture says mankind is fallen and corrupt.
You should know that.
both in ancient times, and modern times.
And all men, everywhere, use whatever excuse is convenient... often it is religion.
But evil men will use any excuse to fight, and kill, and destroy each other...
because that is the nature of man.
This still has nothing to do with the solitary issue of whether or not God exists.
The fact that you have seen so much evil is a validation of scripture.
The scripture says mankind is fallen and corrupt.
You should know that.
All I know is that if God does exist, he's not up in the sky wondering if he's Catholic or Protestant or Coptic, or Buddhist, Muslim, whatever. I don't have an issue with God, I have an issue with men and women who think they can summarize him in a statement of faith. It's like trying to catch a hot air balloon with a staple gun.
This is a very clever way to evade the argument, and end the discussion without dealing with it.
You say you don't have a problem with God.
So what does that mean?
Are you agnostic?
Do you believe there is a God, but He's not someone we can really know?
Do you believe there "might" be a God?
Or are you a firm atheist, who simply uses little tricks of rhetoric to evade difficult questions?
You say you don't have a problem with God.
So what does that mean?
Are you agnostic?
Do you believe there is a God, but He's not someone we can really know?
Do you believe there "might" be a God?
Or are you a firm atheist, who simply uses little tricks of rhetoric to evade difficult questions?
Nope, I don't think a person's view of God is what defines them. I think that a person's view of God (if they have one), is a small part of who someone is. I believe that people are far more complex and share a lot more in common than what their view of God is. Hence why I can be friends with Christians, Muslims, Buddhist, atheists, asgnostics. I'm acknowledging that you think that a person's view of God defines them, and that you need to define me because of that. Because if you can't define me, then how do you know where you stand with me? How do you approach me? What am I?
So, I would assume you find it more difficult to be friends with someone who isn't Christian and who doesn't share the same view of God as you do. Why is that?
So, I would assume you find it more difficult to be friends with someone who isn't Christian and who doesn't share the same view of God as you do. Why is that?
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A
Hungary's embassy to London flooded with calls from Britons supporting tough stance on migrants: Embassy reveals that it receives 300 emails and calls per day - 70 per cent in favour of decision to fence off Hungary's borders: Hungary's embassy to London flooded with calls from Britons supporting tough stance on migrants - Telegraph
Nigel Farage: EU exit my priority - British government promises referendum by 2018: Nigel Farage: EU exit my priority, not UKIP - BBC News
Europe is adrift as German leadership crumbles: https://www.morningstar.com/news/ma...-is-adrift-as-german-leadership-crumbles.html
"Germany's attempt to strong-arm its fellow EU members into accepting a quota allocation for just some of the refugees... provoked defiance from East European countries. Slovakian Prime Minister Robert Fico did not hesitate to reject the vote by EU interior ministers as a 'diktat.'" (note: The UK, Slovakia, Romania, Hungry, etc... came together and voted to reject EU quotas).
EU emergency summit over refugee crisis ended in what the Guardian headlined as "disarray": EU refugee summit in disarray as Tusk warns 'greatest tide yet to come' | World news | The Guardian
Looks like the utterly undesirable leftard plan to colonize Western Civilization with Muslims toward replacing Western Civilization with an immoral violent totalitarian theocratic false religious cult is hitting a major snag. Pray that snag becomes the beginning of the end of this leftardation.
Nigel Farage: EU exit my priority - British government promises referendum by 2018: Nigel Farage: EU exit my priority, not UKIP - BBC News
Europe is adrift as German leadership crumbles: https://www.morningstar.com/news/ma...-is-adrift-as-german-leadership-crumbles.html
"Germany's attempt to strong-arm its fellow EU members into accepting a quota allocation for just some of the refugees... provoked defiance from East European countries. Slovakian Prime Minister Robert Fico did not hesitate to reject the vote by EU interior ministers as a 'diktat.'" (note: The UK, Slovakia, Romania, Hungry, etc... came together and voted to reject EU quotas).
EU emergency summit over refugee crisis ended in what the Guardian headlined as "disarray": EU refugee summit in disarray as Tusk warns 'greatest tide yet to come' | World news | The Guardian
Looks like the utterly undesirable leftard plan to colonize Western Civilization with Muslims toward replacing Western Civilization with an immoral violent totalitarian theocratic false religious cult is hitting a major snag. Pray that snag becomes the beginning of the end of this leftardation.
A
Sociology 101: human behavior is more the result of culture than it is of biology. For example, many behaviors differ dramatically among societies in ways that show the strong impact of culture.
It's truly ignorant, and obviously people who make this mistake have never taken even a sociology 101 course in their life, to falsely assert that a person's beliefs have but a small influence upon their behavior and corporately the societies they create when exactly the opposite is the case.
Social scientists recognize that religion is a powerful influence upon the behavior of both individuals and societies (e.g. "unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things” see Weber 1915).
While its entertaining to read a non-religious person's Islamic apologist screed; in this case it's nothing more than a string of false assertions, rambling personal narrative, and a colossal display of educational ignorance.
Falsely asserting that a person's beliefs or worldview (e.g. the interpretive lens which shapes, influences, and generally directs a person's life influencing the decisions they make and the behaviors they engage in) has only a small to negligible influence upon their behavior is empirically untrue completely contradicting both the social sciences (e.g. sociology, political science, psychology, anthropology, etc...) and the principles of logic as well as observation and empirical statistical analysis.
People's beliefs affect both their behaviors and their societies influencing cultures, structures, and institutions (for good or bad) which, in turn, affects people. Research on the determinants of behavior influenced by religion show empirically that one's religious belief's directly materially influence individual and societal behavior and it's ignorant to falsely assert otherwise.
It's truly ignorant, and obviously people who make this mistake have never taken even a sociology 101 course in their life, to falsely assert that a person's beliefs have but a small influence upon their behavior and corporately the societies they create when exactly the opposite is the case.
Social scientists recognize that religion is a powerful influence upon the behavior of both individuals and societies (e.g. "unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things” see Weber 1915).
While its entertaining to read a non-religious person's Islamic apologist screed; in this case it's nothing more than a string of false assertions, rambling personal narrative, and a colossal display of educational ignorance.
Falsely asserting that a person's beliefs or worldview (e.g. the interpretive lens which shapes, influences, and generally directs a person's life influencing the decisions they make and the behaviors they engage in) has only a small to negligible influence upon their behavior is empirically untrue completely contradicting both the social sciences (e.g. sociology, political science, psychology, anthropology, etc...) and the principles of logic as well as observation and empirical statistical analysis.
People's beliefs affect both their behaviors and their societies influencing cultures, structures, and institutions (for good or bad) which, in turn, affects people. Research on the determinants of behavior influenced by religion show empirically that one's religious belief's directly materially influence individual and societal behavior and it's ignorant to falsely assert otherwise.