Is Obama Communist or Muslim?

[TheGrungeDiva]

The grouping of socialism/communism into one camp was a flaw in the polling. One can easily be a socialist but not ascribe to the tenets of Marx. Just ask Benito Moussolini, Saint Simon, and Charles Fourier.

Very true.

I lumped them together because many Americans seem to use them somewhat interchangeably.

Technically, according to the original meanings of the words, socialism is the "transition stage" from capitalism to communism. In practice, it has become "communism lite" -- the acceptance of certain programs being run by the government without giving over total authority of every last aspect of everything to the government. In true communism, EVERYTHING is controlled by the government: property, groceries, toothpicks, etc. This is what Marx envisioned. Marx predicted that nations would move to that system slowly, one program at a time. Today, countries recognize total communism is crazy (to put it bluntly), but that some things MUST be run by government. Heck, EVERY goverenment that has ever existed has had elements of socialism -- or else it wouldn't be a government. The very act of being a government, governing, is socialistic in nature. The more programs that are controlled by the government, the more socialist a country is. We (the U.S.) have socialized military and infrastructure. We sort of have socialized education, but public schools aren't so much run by the government as vice-versa. And even after Obamacare is in full swing, we will NOT have socialized medicine, not even close. Most health care will still be delivered by private (probably mostly non-profit) corporations.

I didn't really mean to get into a discussion of political systems, but I totally get what you're saying.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

[Sorry for going OT, GD, felt I had to make this input].

No apologies necessary. Your points are very appropriate and well constructed. Thanks for sharing, as they say.

 

[JimJimmers]

Well, then, you would answer "neither" in the poll. Since that is one of the four options, I'm not sure why you had problems.

Because is is not a binary position. I will say it one more time. OBAMA'S CHURCH HAD ELEMENTS OF THOSE THINGS IN THEIR TEACHINGS. That's why none of the options were correct. Jeremiah Wright: I “Made It Comfortable” For Obama to Accept Christianity Without Having to Renounce Islam (Video Report) | The Gateway Pundit

So I couldn't vote yes to Muslim, because a true Muslim would never hold dual faiths. However, neither would a true Christian, so like I said you're left with a pea soup of belief.

Good grief. I never said the Church was Marxist. I said it was possible to interpret some of the things that Jesus said as being Marxist.

Okay, I thought it was fairly common knowledge. According to The Richmond Times-Dispatch, it's on the church's website, about how merging Christianity with Marxism is the way to go.

For the record: I don't think "the Church" (whether you mean "The Church" as in all Christianity, or the UCC as a denomination, or Trinity UCC in particular -- you never did answer that question) is Marxist. I do think there are some socialist aspects that fit well with Christianity.

I said the church he went to for 20 years, I thought that made it obvious. If you still don't get it, I meant Jeremiah Wright's church. The one the Obamas got married in.

Wow, so many problems with this I almost don't know where to begin. First of all, just because an organization honors an individual, that doesn't necessarily mean that organization endorses everything that individual has ever said, or is in lock-step with that individual on every issue.

An example could be Martin Luther, the Protestant Reformer. I know several evangelical churches who honor Luther on Reformation Sunday, remembering the advances he made for the Church. That doesn't mean they agree with everything Luther says. Of course they don't agree with everything, or else they'd be Lutheran, not evangelical. Honoring him doesn't make them "kinda Lutheran" -- it's just an acknowledgment.

In that case, what were they honoring? His driving habits? They were honoring his ideology.

Wow, that's almost as racist as Rev. Wright himself. The two of you are like peas in a pod, aren't you?

ROFL! What do you find racist about that? You could stretch it and call it anti-Islamic, but Islam is not a race. If you have any doubts as to the anti-Jewish nature of Islam, read the koran.

Wacko is right ... And since you could provide no link for that one, despite excellent references for all your other statements, I am left having to assume that you made that up. Nice work.

Wow, are you seriously unable to cross-reference something? Or are you just afraid I'm right? There's a search engine called "Google", that is very handy. I figured you could do one out of 3, but I guess not. Very well.

Obama's Pastor Wright: "Italians Look Down Their Garlic Noses… Jesus Got Public Lynching Italian Style" | The Gateway Pundit

Any questions?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

So I couldn't vote yes to Muslim, because a true Muslim would never hold dual faiths. However, neither would a true Christian, so like I said you're left with a pea soup of belief.

I didn't ask if he was a Christian. I asked if he was a Muslim and/or a socialist. If you believe that he is not a Muslim, then you could have answered either "socialist/communist" or "neither." Either of those answers would have correctly reflected the statement that Obama is not a "true Muslim," as you say. No problem in the poll question or answer options. Just a problem with the user interface. We call that an an "ID-ten-T" error.

Obama's Pastor Wright: "Italians Look Down Their Garlic Noses… Jesus Got Public Lynching Italian Style"

Facealm.

Ah, and "Italian Style" means that it was Italians who did it. Like "scotch tape" is only made in Scotland.

To others on this board: please tell me that such thinking is in the minority. I am truly frightened for the future of this planet if any sizable portion of the population actually believes this horse manure.

 

[JimJimmers]

YOU are the idiot, GrungeDiva. That phrase 'ID-ten-t' was not lost on me. ONCE AGAIN: If you were to read the article, you would see that, according to his pastor, he became a Christian without straying from his traditional Muslim faith. If you think that definitively points to a single poll option, go ahead and mentally select one. However, for the rest of us who believe not every answer is a yes or no answer, I will keep my original answer.

If you had any decency, you would apologize for calling me an idiot, as well as saying I am somehow racist. I see now that you really didn't want people to answer your poll to learn anything, you merely wanted to argue and prop up your predetermined conclusions.

 

[Nautilus]

I still dont see the issue if he was a muslm, being a christian isnt a prerequisite to be president.

 

[Bushido8000]

Probably Atheist Obama Mocks & Attacks Jesus Christ And The Bible / Video / Obama Is Not A Christian - YouTube

 

[Nautilus]

Probably Atheist Obama Mocks & Attacks Jesus Christ And The Bible / Video / Obama Is Not A Christian - YouTube

Still really has nothing to do with being president...unless you have a different opinion of president...its leader of a country not a pastor...

 

[Ritter]

Still really has nothing to do with being president...unless you have a different opinion of president...its leader of a country not a pastor...

That hasn't stopped Presidents from playing Minister in Chief.

I think a President ought to abide by certain principles that could be considered traditionally American, but beyond that? If a Muslim were to become President but govern like James Madison, I'd be fine.

The probability of that actually being the case?

 

[JimJimmers]

I still dont see the issue if he was a muslm, being a christian isnt a prerequisite to be president.

You're right, Nautilus, it isn't a prerequisite. I figured the OP just wanted people's opinions on Obama's personal beliefs.

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

You're right, Nautilus, it isn't a prerequisite. I figured the OP just wanted people's opinions on Obama's personal beliefs.

I'm trying to figure out how someone could think that a person could be both Muslim and Socialist. The fact that there are two people who think that in this forum boggles my mind. Can you say "cognitive dissonance"? I knew you could.

 

[tribesman]

I'm trying to figure out how someone could think that a person could be both Muslim and Socialist. The fact that there are two people who think that in this forum boggles my mind...

Actually, there are quiet a few examples of socialist muslims. Although not normally marxist socialists, but arab socialists, nasserists etc. There can also be named examples of marxist socialist muslims as well. For example many soviet republics were muslim. These cases would be assumed secularized and non-islamist muslim.

 

[Nautilus]

Actually, there are quiet a few examples of socialist muslims. Although not normally marxist socialists, but arab socialists, nasserists etc. There can also be named examples of marxist socialist muslims as well. For example many soviet republics were muslim. These cases would be assumed secularized and non-islamist muslim.

Most countries in the USSR were not members by choice however, so that clasification is faulty at best since they were muslim by choice, but forced into the communist category.

 

[tribesman]

Most countries in the USSR were not members by choice however, so that clasification is faulty at best since they were muslim by choice, but forced into the communist category.

The issue is not if they were in the USSR by choice or not (I would say they were not). But obviously there were secularized muslim marxist socialists in these countries who collaborated with the soviets. How these people came under Islam is another topic.

 

[tribesman]

Sékou Touré, former president of west african Guinea, and key figure in its independence from France, was muslim and marxist socialist.

 

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[JCTALKS]

1 thing is for sure he lies about just about everything

 

[Nautilus]

1 thing is for sure he lies about just about everything

yes clearly....let me guess we should elect a good tea party republican right?

 

[TheGrungeDiva]

These cases would be assumed secularized and non-islamist muslim.

My understanding is that "Muslim" is a religion, not a race. A person cannot be "Muslim" unless they follow the religion of Islam.

Now, I accept that I could be wrong in this, if I am shown an authoritative source that says otherwise.

Tribesman, I do respect you as one of the wisest voices on this particular forum, but I'd have to say I don't count you as "authoritative" when it comes to All Things Islamic -- no offense intended.

Being a Muslim is in contrast to being Jewish. I know many people who identify themselves as racially "Jewish" while not following the laws (the "Torah") of Judaism. And most Jews who do keep kosher accept their secular sisters and brothers, and recognize them as Jews. (Various names exist for these secular Jews: Wandering, Enlightened ... depends on your point of view.)

My understanding is that this is "not kosher" (pun intended) within Islam, which is more like Christianity. A person would not say, "Well, my parents were Christian, but I don't believe in God, so I guess I'm Christian." No, both Christians and atheists agree that, no matter what you were "raised," if you don't believe in God, you can't be Christian. Some Christians may put more restrictions on that name than others. (Some will say you have to accept the divinity of Christ, although there are some sects who do not accept that but still consider themselves Christian.) But I don't think you will find anyone who says you can be a Christian without at least some faith in God. My understanding is that Islam is even more that way. That you can't just "call yourself" Muslim because you want to identify as Muslim. My understanding is that you have to follow Islamic law. Now, I do understand that there are different sects within Islam (Suni, Sheite, etc.) each with different teachings, different interpretations of the Qaran. But -- and again, if I am wrong, I'm ready to admit it, given suitable evidence -- acceptance of the Qaran at some level is pretty much a given for any sect.

Another tenet which is (again, as far as I know -- correct me if I'm wrong) pretty much required in any sect of Islam no matter what, would be seeking the accumulation of personal wealth as a blessing from Allah. That one tenet is enough to make it 100% incompatible with socialism, by definition. Right?

So no, you can't be both Socialist and Muslim. Any more than you could be an Athiest Christian.