Obama's Argument

[PoetMary]

So your basic position is not that God will always protect you, but that your ready to accept whatever comes..which is a understandable position ...but I don't think its a position where you should question or challenge the faith of others who might see self-protection with a firearm as a act of common sense and faith.

I didn't question or challenge anyone. I simply stated MY OPINION. In fact, I went out of my way to make it clear that this was my opinion. I said things like, "apart from the moral issues *I* have with guns," and "*I* trust God to protect me," etc.

And, fyi, I'd appreciate you not telling me what I believe. "So your basic position is not that God will always protect you..." I'm fully capable to sharing what I believe and I speak as I mean.

Part of the problem is how YOU define "protection." Being spared from suffering is NOT my definition of protection....but it seems possible that it might be yours. Personally, I believe that we need to suffer in order to be like Jesus. This is why I don't fear suffering.

When I say that God protects me, I mean that I believe that He always has my back. Any suffering I experience is simply a way for me to identify more closely with Jesus. Thus, even within my suffering he has my back because he's making me more like him.

 

[Mitspa]

I didn't question or challenge anyone. I simply stated MY OPINION. In fact, I went out of my way to make it clear that this was my opinion. I said things like, "apart from the moral issues *I* have with guns," and "*I* trust God to protect me," etc.

And, fyi, I'd appreciate you not telling me what I believe. "So your basic position is not that God will always protect you..." I'm fully capable to sharing what I believe and I speak as I mean.

Part of the problem is how YOU define "protection." Being spared from suffering is NOT my definition of protection....but it seems possible that it might be yours. Personally, I believe that we need to suffer in order to be like Jesus. This is why I don't fear suffering.

When I say that God protects me, I mean that I believe that He always has my back. Any suffering I experience is simply a way for me to identify more closely with Jesus. Thus, even within my suffering he has my back because he's making me more like him.

Like I said..if you believe its Gods Will or in some way biblical to allow criminals to rape and rob and kill you and your family ..then have at it .... but its not Gods Will and its clearly not biblical. Now if your speaking of being persecuted for the gospel..thats a different issue and it don't appear you have made that claim at all in your post?

 

[kodiak]

Like I said..if you believe its Gods Will or in some way biblical to allow criminals to rape and rob and kill you and your family ..then have at it .... but its not Gods Will and its clearly not biblical. Now if your speaking of being persecuted for the gospel..thats a different issue and it don't appear you have made that claim at all in your post?

Mitspa, some people don't believe guns are for them, that is fine. She isn't trying to take away your right to own a gun, she is just stating her opinion for her self. A gun is not the only way to protect yourself from those things.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa, some people don't believe guns are for them, that is fine. She isn't trying to take away your right to own a gun, she is just stating her opinion for her self. A gun is not the only way to protect yourself from those things.

I believe I understood what she was saying and answered in a Godly and biblical way... while making a clear and evident point about the issue at hand. Thank you for your input

 

[jsr1221]

I believe I understood what she was saying and answered in a Godly and biblical way... while making a clear and evident point about the issue at hand. Thank you for your input

You say that for each and every person that says they are not comfortable with guns, though. Some people have different ways of protecting themselves. My uncle uses a bat. My house has guns. People have rights to carry. They also have rights not to carry. Why are you trying to make people feel guilty over something they're not comfortable with? The beauty of God is that He created each of us differently, and He gives us the free will to make decisions while seeking Him. You're trying to play God, and that's a sin.

 

[PoetMary]

Like I said..if you believe its Gods Will or in some way biblical to allow criminals to rape and rob and kill you and your family ..then have at it .... but its not Gods Will and its clearly not biblical. Now if your speaking of being persecuted for the gospel..thats a different issue and it don't appear you have made that claim at all in your post?

I never claimed any of the things you say here in your post. I never mentioned rapists. I never mentioned criminals. I never mentioned robbers. You are clearly interpreting and adding to what I said to suit your own way of viewing things.

You (later) claimed that you answered me biblically...which you did not. If you actually read the bible the penalty for rapists was that they had to pay the brideprice for the woman and then marry her. There was no "death by gun" for rapists. There was no death penalty at all imposed on rapists.

If you feel like the only way that evil will be handled in this world is via a gun, then you need to go to it. I have great trust in the work of the Holy Spirit in the world. I don't think that God needs violence to deal with evil. I also don't value human life cheaply and speak easily of killing others (whether or not they are sinning).

The people that I know who've actually had to kill another person in the line of duty have suffered greatly for this act. Not because they did wrongly, but because killing a creature made in God's image is no light affair. It takes a toll on the person who does it (and likely their families as well). So when it comes to discussions about killing people, I cannot be flip about it.

Part of the reason why my conscience will not allow me to own a gun is because what would be the point? I don't need a rifle because I'll never go hunting animals, and I don't need a handgun because I will never shoot another person. I'm not willing to kill another person. I'd rather die myself than kill another person. Now, you may say that my perspective would be different if I had children...and that's a possibility. I doubt that having children would push me into gun ownership, but I'd probably be more likely to have an alarm system and possibly surveillance cameras. Certainly I'd have life insurance (which I do not currently have).

What's interesting is that you want to characterize me as some kind of weak person who is too fearful to defend others. This is ironic because I regularly step in to defend the weak--at a great cost to myself. I've taken all kinds of flack from all kinds of people in my life because I've made myself a target to free up someone else. I just won't use a gun to do it.

Thus, here I am, presenting my own opinion/experience/faith regarding this issue. I have maligned the faith of no one else in my presentation. I have offered instruction to no one as to how they should believe or behave. And STILL you have to falsely represent what I have said and imply that it isn't biblical or right.

 

[Mitspa]

I never claimed any of the things you say here in your post. I never mentioned rapists. I never mentioned criminals. I never mentioned robbers. You are clearly interpreting and adding to what I said to suit your own way of viewing things.

You (later) claimed that you answered me biblically...which you did not. If you actually read the bible the penalty for rapists was that they had to pay the brideprice for the woman and then marry her. There was no "death by gun" for rapists. There was no death penalty at all imposed on rapists.

If you feel like the only way that evil will be handled in this world is via a gun, then you need to go to it. I have great trust in the work of the Holy Spirit in the world. I don't think that God needs violence to deal with evil. I also don't value human life cheaply and speak easily of killing others (whether or not they are sinning).

The people that I know who've actually had to kill another person in the line of duty have suffered greatly for this act. Not because they did wrongly, but because killing a creature made in God's image is no light affair. It takes a toll on the person who does it (and likely their families as well). So when it comes to discussions about killing people, I cannot be flip about it.

Part of the reason why my conscience will not allow me to own a gun is because what would be the point? I don't need a rifle because I'll never go hunting animals, and I don't need a handgun because I will never shoot another person. I'm not willing to kill another person. I'd rather die myself than kill another person. Now, you may say that my perspective would be different if I had children...and that's a possibility. I doubt that having children would push me into gun ownership, but I'd probably be more likely to have an alarm system and possibly surveillance cameras. Certainly I'd have life insurance (which I do not currently have).

What's interesting is that you want to characterize me as some kind of weak person who is too fearful to defend others. This is ironic because I regularly step in to defend the weak--at a great cost to myself. I've taken all kinds of flack from all kinds of people in my life because I've made myself a target to free up someone else. I just won't use a gun to do it.

Thus, here I am, presenting my own opinion/experience/faith regarding this issue. I have maligned the faith of no one else in my presentation. I have offered instruction to no one as to how they should believe or behave. And STILL you have to falsely represent what I have said and imply that it isn't biblical or right.

You just take things too personally ..its hard to have a reasonable discussion with you about a issue without you getting all upset...you throw false ideas into a conversation (almost always base in left-wing error) and then when someone challenges you..you get very defensive ...If your going to promote these left wing and unbiblical ideas..you need to learn that others are going to challenge those ideas and its not personal ..its about truth and error.

 

[Mitspa]

You say that for each and every person that says they are not comfortable with guns, though. Some people have different ways of protecting themselves. My uncle uses a bat. My house has guns. People have rights to carry. They also have rights not to carry. Why are you trying to make people feel guilty over something they're not comfortable with? The beauty of God is that He created each of us differently, and He gives us the free will to make decisions while seeking Him. You're trying to play God, and that's a sin.

Look its not a issue for me at all that some choose a completely passive position on this issue ..It only becomes a issue with me when that start teaching that as the biblical position that other Christians should accept as the truth. Its not and I think it puts others in danger to be deceived by such error.

 

[kodiak]

Look its not a issue for me at all that some choose a completely passive position on this issue ..It only becomes a issue with me when that start teaching that as the biblical position that other Christians should accept as the truth. Its not and I think it puts others in danger to be deceived by such error.

You just take things too personally ..its hard to have a reasonable discussion with you about a issue without you getting all upset...you throw false ideas into a conversation (almost always base in left-wing error) and then when someone challenges you..you get very defensive ...If your going to promote these left wing and unbiblical ideas..you need to learn that others are going to challenge those ideas and its not personal ..its about truth and error.

The Bible never commands that everyone own a weapon. She is not telling you that you should not own a gun, just that it is not right for her. Show us in the Bible where it says everyone has to own a weapon, like you are trying to say.

 

[Mitspa]

The Bible never commands that everyone own a weapon. She is not telling you that you should not own a gun, just that it is not right for her. Show us in the Bible where it says everyone has to own a weapon, like you are trying to say.

Show me where I said "everyone has to own a weapon"...find a direct quote I have made in its context...And I will defend that quote...I don't defend what folks twist my words to say..i defend what I say... You have just tried to twist my words and should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[kodiak]

Buy a gun..and learn how to use it..the next time it could be a real bad dude

here you are trying to tell her to buy a gun for protection

If folks want to be or are willing to allow their loved ones to be raped, robbed and abused by criminals and wicked people? That's up to you...but don't claim its biblical or Gods desire for His people, because its clearly not.

she never claimed those things, you are trying to get her to buy a gun still even after she has stated she doesn't want to

I didn't claim that no evil can befall me. I simply claimed that I utterly trust God to protect me in every way. THUS, when/if evil does befall me, God is there for me.

As to being sick, I basically see the doctor once a year. I've not taken antibiotics since 1993. I've occasionally gotten food poisoning. I've been in a couple of car accidents (minor injuries in one, no injuries in another). I've spun out on an icy overpass coming close to both walls (on either side) and ending up perpendicular to the road with an oncoming 18-wheeler. I've had a man break into my home late one night. I've had other men engage in abusive behavior (physically) toward me. I've been threatened by students. I've dealt with some extreme weather incidences. I really don't have any fears regarding what COULD happen to me out in the big bad world. I'm not afraid of any of my material goods being stolen. I'm not afraid of my person being harmed. I just don't have room for that kind of wasted energy in my head.

again she says she doesn't want a gun

You just take things too personally ..its hard to have a reasonable discussion with you about a issue without you getting all upset...you throw false ideas into a conversation (almost always base in left-wing error) and then when someone challenges you..you get very defensive ...If your going to promote these left wing and unbiblical ideas..you need to learn that others are going to challenge those ideas and its not personal ..its about truth and error.

and here you accuse her of false ideas just because she doesn't want a gun and say she holds an unbiblical view, when all you two are discussing is if she has to own a gun

Show me where I said "everyone has to own a weapon"...find a direct quote I have made in its context...And I will defend that quote...I don't defend what folks twist my words to say..i defend what I say... You have just tried to twist my words and should be ashamed of yourself.

You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to force her into a belief she does not support. she never once tried to tell you or anyone else not to own a gun so when you said her views were against the Bible, that is exactly what you were doing. Which in turn implies that you believe based on the Bible that everyone needs a gun. Logically that is where one must take what you said in context of the whole conversation. I hope you can see where anyone reading this can take it, and if you didn't mean it in that way, then state how you meant it, but I will not watch someone accuse someone else that them not owning a gun is unbiblical. You should understand this.

 

[Mitspa]

here you are trying to tell her to buy a gun for protection

she never claimed those things, you are trying to get her to buy a gun still even after she has stated she doesn't want to

again she says she doesn't want a gun

and here you accuse her of false ideas just because she doesn't want a gun and say she holds an unbiblical view, when all you two are discussing is if she has to own a gun



You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to force her into a belief she does not support. she never once tried to tell you or anyone else not to own a gun so when you said her views were against the Bible, that is exactly what you were doing. Which in turn implies that you believe based on the Bible that everyone needs a gun. Logically that is where one must take what you said in context of the whole conversation. I hope you can see where anyone reading this can take it, and if you didn't mean it in that way, then state how you meant it, but I will not watch someone accuse someone else that them not owning a gun is unbiblical. You should understand this.

So you could not find where I said "everyone has to own a weapon"....so stop trying to twist my words, and what I said, i said and in the context of why I said it...So i suggest you stop trying to play mod or judge and just learn from the points i made.

 

[kodiak]

So you could not find where I said "everyone has to own a weapon"....so stop trying to twist my words, and what I said, i said and in the context of why I said it...So i suggest you stop trying to play mod or judge and just learn from the points i made.

Reread what you said and read what I wrote, I am not trying to play mod or judge, I am holding you accountable for what you said like you seem to want to do yourself. Please tell me what you honestly meant within everything I said to you, I never said you came right out and said it, you are twisting my words now. So are you going to explain yourself, so I can truly apologize, or are you going to apologize to her for what you have said.

 

[PoetMary]

You just take things too personally ..its hard to have a reasonable discussion with you about a issue without you getting all upset...you throw false ideas into a conversation (almost always base in left-wing error) and then when someone challenges you..you get very defensive ...If your going to promote these left wing and unbiblical ideas..you need to learn that others are going to challenge those ideas and its not personal ..its about truth and error.

1. I didn't take it personally. I simply responded to the fact that you introduced ideas that I never evidenced in anything I said (something that you did yourself with another chatter who you felt misunderstood you).

2. None of my ideas are "left-wing error." I think it's interesting that you presume I'm a liberal simply because we disagree. I've never made any statements on here about my political ideologies or affiliations.

3. Nothing I said was unbiblical. I challenge you to post any idea I presented that contradicts scripture.

4. You didn't really challenge any ideas I presented. You misinterpreted what I said. When I clarified that misinterpretation you went on to add to what I'd said, "sum it up" in your own words, and finally add some conclusive statements to it.

Here's what a challenge looks like: Mary, have you ever considered the fact that you have those views because you are single? An inquiring kind of challenge might be: So, Mary, are you saying that everyone should espouse your view of guns? A theological challenge might be: Mary, how do you justify your view based on (fill in with a particular scripture about defense/self-defense/weapon usage).

 

[Mitspa]

Reread what you said and read what I wrote, I am not trying to play mod or judge, I am holding you accountable for what you said like you seem to want to do yourself. Please tell me what you honestly meant within everything I said to you, I never said you came right out and said it, you are twisting my words now. So are you going to explain yourself, so I can truly apologize, or are you going to apologize to her for what you have said.

Your giving your opinion..and your clearly wrong..so what do you want from me? I have already told you that i believe what i said and how i said it was fine ..and I don't see any problem...you say you don't like it...ok .. you had your say and i had mine and she had hers ... Free speech is a wonderful thing

 

[Mitspa]

1. I didn't take it personally. I simply responded to the fact that you introduced ideas that I never evidenced in anything I said (something that you did yourself with another chatter who you felt misunderstood you).

2. None of my ideas are "left-wing error." I think it's interesting that you presume I'm a liberal simply because we disagree. I've never made any statements on here about my political ideologies or affiliations.

3. Nothing I said was unbiblical. I challenge you to post any idea I presented that contradicts scripture.

4. You didn't really challenge any ideas I presented. You misinterpreted what I said. When I clarified that misinterpretation you went on to add to what I'd said, "sum it up" in your own words, and finally add some conclusive statements to it.

Here's what a challenge looks like: Mary, have you ever considered the fact that you have those views because you are single? An inquiring kind of challenge might be: So, Mary, are you saying that everyone should espouse your view of guns? A theological challenge might be: Mary, how do you justify your view based on (fill in with a particular scripture about defense/self-defense/weapon usage).

Ok you guys are derailing a good thread by all this nonsense about who said what and when and how...I said what i said ..and im sure what i said was right

 

[kodiak]

Your giving your opinion..and your clearly wrong..so what do you want from me? I have already told you that i believe what i said and how i said it was fine ..and I don't see any problem...you say you don't like it...ok .. you had your say and i had mine and she had hers ... Free speech is a wonderful thing

You have not said what you meant, which is what I am asking. Please go through the post you asked me to make and if I was wrong, I will apologize, but if you were wrong, I want you to apologize to Mary. I know you think what you said is fine, but please go through it and explain it so I can understand you meant no harm. Will you at least do that, then I will apologize if what I said is wrong. If what you said is right, please just do this, so I can understand the way you write, because everyone writes and interprets things differently. I don't think this is a unreasonable request.

 

[Mitspa]

You have not said what you meant, which is what I am asking. Please go through the post you asked me to make and if I was wrong, I will apologize, but if you were wrong, I want you to apologize to Mary. I know you think what you said is fine, but please go through it and explain it so I can understand you meant no harm. Will you at least do that, then I will apologize if what I said is wrong. If what you said is right, please just do this, so I can understand the way you write, because everyone writes and interprets things differently. I don't think this is a unreasonable request.

Im sorry its just not worth my time ..to get you to understand...if you want to understand my position you can read my post...Im here to debate the issue that was raised on this thread...not to play this back and forth game with words.

 

[kodiak]

Im sorry its just not worth my time ..to get you to understand...if you want to understand my position you can read my post...Im here to debate the issue that was raised on this thread...not to play this back and forth game with words.

Then please apologize to Mary, because people have understood what you said to mean that.

 

[Mitspa]

Then please apologize to Mary, because people have understood what you said to mean that.

Well i dont owe Marry an apology ....she and you should thank me for trying to help her escape from her error...But i wont ask for thanks ...Im just glad to help