U.S. Supreme Court declines stay 4 clerk refusing to issue gay marriage certificates
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Interesting pdf: http://courts.ky.gov/commissionscommittees/CCCCC/Documents/CodeofConduct.pdf
Another interesting pdf: http://www.e-archives.ky.gov/pubs/aoc/ClerksManual_2006.pdf
Another interesting pdf: http://www.e-archives.ky.gov/pubs/aoc/ClerksManual_2006.pdf
V
... which you then followed with the exact same response you posted on the "Is Kim Davis Christian???" thread. As an aside, that's considered spamming -- posting the same post more than once, regardless of where on the forum the two or more posts are made.
But the real issue is that you really insist on being allowed your unrighteous judgment. Your emboldening and all- CAPS indicates that, face-to-face with us, you'd be stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum. On that other thread, I told you in this post that you are far beyond any purview of the Christian to make that judgment. Your insistence has now become rebellion, and -- at the risk of once again rousing your ire as I did telling you this once before -- knock it off! You have no right to it.
But the real issue is that you really insist on being allowed your unrighteous judgment. Your emboldening and all- CAPS indicates that, face-to-face with us, you'd be stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum. On that other thread, I told you in this post that you are far beyond any purview of the Christian to make that judgment. Your insistence has now become rebellion, and -- at the risk of once again rousing your ire as I did telling you this once before -- knock it off! You have no right to it.
N
Agree completely.
If a law was passed where she had to register folks to be interned, she would have to do it or quit. There isn't really a difference in what the law says. She would have to register whatever/whomever she is told.
I think the government is trying to force her to do her job. If she wants to keep it, she has to abide by the law, whether just, unjust, morally right or wrong. Her view of it may well be the reason she doesn't want to do the job. If she was approving same-sex marriage, she would be wrong from a Christian/Biblical perspective.
When religion and laws come in contact or overlap, laws and duties need to be carefully worded to prevent religious discrimination. I think you have found what I found. Her duty is only to make sure all of the proper evidence is there to have a state sanctioned marriage according to the law and then sign that she agrees it is there, and record/file it properly.
It wasn't until I finally read her duties of office that I realized she is not approving of same-sex marriage by providing her signature to the marriage license documents. I agree with you there.
Still, one issue that came up for me while reading some of that was that she is to follow Kentucky laws. The document said nothing about following federal laws. Now, I may be nit-picking, but law is law. I did not follow up on that to see if the state of Kentucky actually made an amendment to recognize federal law on same-sex marriage. The supreme court of Kentucky may well have adopted the new law, or there may be a law on the books already that forces them to accept whatever the feds decide concerning laws that were supposed to be decided by the individual states. I guess it's a matter of discrimination when considering that, so I suppose that's how the feds passed the law. I don't know.
Still, I think the place to make a stand is with each individuals church superiors. If your church weds same-sex marriage and claim to be Christian, they are in error. Citizens of the U.S. have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If they are happy to be recognized by their state, so be it. They don't hurt me or determine by their marriage, my salvation. I am required to treat others with love, as I love myself. I think when the state steps into Christian churches and tells them they must accept these marriages, the government will be overstepping the founding principles of this country...the separation of church and state.
Still, if you have a legitimate beef, you can write your legislators. Tell them what you think and why. Be considerate and respectful in tone.
V
Reading comprehension much? What I said has nothing to do with my opinion of your participation on CC. Heck, make a post a minute, I don't care. You should know full well -- and probably do -- that "Knock it off!" means stop usurping Jesus' authority in judging the saints! Maybe someday you'll get that through your head.
I tell you simply that you have overstepped the bounds of authority for a Christian, and you see that as "attacking"? Then perhaps what you're feeling isn't an attack, but conviction. You might think about that.
You have made a great deal of fuss over the past few days of having the authority to judge. You even, at one point, spoke of judging actions rather than salvation. Had you limited yourself to judging only actions, you would be fine. But you have repeatedly and determinedly crossed over the line with Davis. First, mentioning her divorces. Second, questioning her salvation based on her church membership.
The reality is, you went too far in both cases. Yes, the Bible says divorce is sin. But it also says that, in Christ, sin is forgiven. The believer must acknowledge the nature of his/her sin, and the fact it is contrary to biblical teaching, and move on, secure in Christ's salvation and the grace and mercy of the Father.
What you have forgotten -- at least in Davis' case, as I'm sure you never forget it in case of your own sin -- is that God does not hold forgiven sin against us. Yetyou have chosen to do so, using her three marriages as "evidence" of hypocrisy. You did so without ever checking the facts. Someone this morning posted that her marriages and divorces all took place before her salvation. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, have you bothered to reconsider your position regarding her agenda?
Now you've moved on into deeper unrighteousness, judging her salvation. Again, you have no right. It is not up you, me, or anyone else to judge anyone else's eternal destiny. Yet despite cautionary statements and even correction, you continue in that error -- which is, in reality, sin.
So once again, with clarity: Knock off unrighteous judgment of someone else's salvation.
Now please rest assured, if you refuse this correction as well, you have no judgment from me. Not that you care one way or another, I'm certain. Your judgment will come from God, and you might keep in mind what happened to the "fairest angel" who wanted to usurp God's authority.
As a believer, you will not receive the same. But it can't be too good when an adopted child of Christ tries to be like Christ to the extent they think they have authority they do not have.
I tell you simply that you have overstepped the bounds of authority for a Christian, and you see that as "attacking"? Then perhaps what you're feeling isn't an attack, but conviction. You might think about that.
You have made a great deal of fuss over the past few days of having the authority to judge. You even, at one point, spoke of judging actions rather than salvation. Had you limited yourself to judging only actions, you would be fine. But you have repeatedly and determinedly crossed over the line with Davis. First, mentioning her divorces. Second, questioning her salvation based on her church membership.
The reality is, you went too far in both cases. Yes, the Bible says divorce is sin. But it also says that, in Christ, sin is forgiven. The believer must acknowledge the nature of his/her sin, and the fact it is contrary to biblical teaching, and move on, secure in Christ's salvation and the grace and mercy of the Father.
What you have forgotten -- at least in Davis' case, as I'm sure you never forget it in case of your own sin -- is that God does not hold forgiven sin against us. Yetyou have chosen to do so, using her three marriages as "evidence" of hypocrisy. You did so without ever checking the facts. Someone this morning posted that her marriages and divorces all took place before her salvation. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, have you bothered to reconsider your position regarding her agenda?
Now you've moved on into deeper unrighteousness, judging her salvation. Again, you have no right. It is not up you, me, or anyone else to judge anyone else's eternal destiny. Yet despite cautionary statements and even correction, you continue in that error -- which is, in reality, sin.
So once again, with clarity: Knock off unrighteous judgment of someone else's salvation.
Now please rest assured, if you refuse this correction as well, you have no judgment from me. Not that you care one way or another, I'm certain. Your judgment will come from God, and you might keep in mind what happened to the "fairest angel" who wanted to usurp God's authority.
As a believer, you will not receive the same. But it can't be too good when an adopted child of Christ tries to be like Christ to the extent they think they have authority they do not have.
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10 Facts one should know about the Davis case- Liberty Counsel...
Press Release | Liberty Counsel
Davis only asked that the Kentucky marriage license forms be changed so her name would not appear on them. She would record any license without her name affixed. Marriage licenses remain in county records permanently. Davis said, “I never imagined a day like this would come, where I would be asked to violate a central teaching of Scripture and of Jesus Himself regarding marriage. To issue a marriage license which conflicts with God’s definition of marriage, with my name affixed to the certificate, would violate my conscience.”Before the U.S. Supreme Court issued its opinion in Obergefell on June 26, 2015, 57 clerks, including Davis, wrote a letter to Kentucky legislators during the regular session, pleading with them to “get a bill on the floor to help protect clerks” who had a religious objection to authorizing the licenses. The Kentucky Clerks Association also recommend that the names of clerks be removed from the forms.Davis was elected County Clerk as a democrat in November 2014 and took office in January 2015, after her mother retired from the position. Before January, Davis was a Deputy Clerk for 27 years.Kim Davis became a Christian at a church service she attended to honor the dying wish of her mother-in-law, who passed away on a Sunday morning. Davis said, “Following the death of my godly mother-in-law over four years ago, I went to church to fulfill her dying wish. There I heard a message of grace and forgiveness and surrendered my life to Jesus Christ.”Davis, who is married to one of the 3 men she married and divorced, admits she was a sinner before she accepted Jesus Christ four years ago and changed her life.Kim Davis does not hate homosexuals or lesbians, as she explained: “I have no animosity toward anyone and harbor no ill will. To me this has never been a gay or lesbian issue. It is about marriage and God’s Word. It is a matter of religious liberty….”Davis is a professing Christian who, before incarceration, attended church worship services multiple times per week and held a weekly Bible study with women at a local jail.As elected officials, Kentucky Clerks can only be removed from office if impeached by the Kentucky House of Representatives and convicted by the Senate. The Kentucky General Assembly does not meet until January 2016.The Supreme Court did not change Kentucky’s marriage law or its forms, but invalidated the legislation limiting marriage to opposite sex couples. It is up to each state’s legislature to conform the law to the opinion. Kentucky Senate President Robert Stivers filed a brief in Davis’s case, pointing out to the judge: “The Supreme Court ruling has completely obliterated the definition of marriage and the process for obtaining a marriage license in Kentucky. The General Assembly will be compelled to amend many sections of Kentucky law, not just for the issuance of marriage licenses, to comply with the recent Supreme Court decision.” The brief pointed out that the Governor can call a special session of the legislature, or he could issue an executive order about the licenses to later be codified by the legislature during the 2016 session. A judge is not a super-legislature that can rewrite the law.Davis is being represented at no charge by attorneys with Liberty Counsel, an international nonprofit litigation, education, and policy organization dedicated to advancing religious freedom, the sanctity of life, and the family. Liberty Counsel was founded in 1989 and has offices in Florida, Virginia and Washington, D.C., an outreach in Israel, and hundreds of advocates around the world.
Open the above link to see them numbered 1-10
Press Release | Liberty Counsel
Davis only asked that the Kentucky marriage license forms be changed so her name would not appear on them. She would record any license without her name affixed. Marriage licenses remain in county records permanently. Davis said, “I never imagined a day like this would come, where I would be asked to violate a central teaching of Scripture and of Jesus Himself regarding marriage. To issue a marriage license which conflicts with God’s definition of marriage, with my name affixed to the certificate, would violate my conscience.”Before the U.S. Supreme Court issued its opinion in Obergefell on June 26, 2015, 57 clerks, including Davis, wrote a letter to Kentucky legislators during the regular session, pleading with them to “get a bill on the floor to help protect clerks” who had a religious objection to authorizing the licenses. The Kentucky Clerks Association also recommend that the names of clerks be removed from the forms.Davis was elected County Clerk as a democrat in November 2014 and took office in January 2015, after her mother retired from the position. Before January, Davis was a Deputy Clerk for 27 years.Kim Davis became a Christian at a church service she attended to honor the dying wish of her mother-in-law, who passed away on a Sunday morning. Davis said, “Following the death of my godly mother-in-law over four years ago, I went to church to fulfill her dying wish. There I heard a message of grace and forgiveness and surrendered my life to Jesus Christ.”Davis, who is married to one of the 3 men she married and divorced, admits she was a sinner before she accepted Jesus Christ four years ago and changed her life.Kim Davis does not hate homosexuals or lesbians, as she explained: “I have no animosity toward anyone and harbor no ill will. To me this has never been a gay or lesbian issue. It is about marriage and God’s Word. It is a matter of religious liberty….”Davis is a professing Christian who, before incarceration, attended church worship services multiple times per week and held a weekly Bible study with women at a local jail.As elected officials, Kentucky Clerks can only be removed from office if impeached by the Kentucky House of Representatives and convicted by the Senate. The Kentucky General Assembly does not meet until January 2016.The Supreme Court did not change Kentucky’s marriage law or its forms, but invalidated the legislation limiting marriage to opposite sex couples. It is up to each state’s legislature to conform the law to the opinion. Kentucky Senate President Robert Stivers filed a brief in Davis’s case, pointing out to the judge: “The Supreme Court ruling has completely obliterated the definition of marriage and the process for obtaining a marriage license in Kentucky. The General Assembly will be compelled to amend many sections of Kentucky law, not just for the issuance of marriage licenses, to comply with the recent Supreme Court decision.” The brief pointed out that the Governor can call a special session of the legislature, or he could issue an executive order about the licenses to later be codified by the legislature during the 2016 session. A judge is not a super-legislature that can rewrite the law.Davis is being represented at no charge by attorneys with Liberty Counsel, an international nonprofit litigation, education, and policy organization dedicated to advancing religious freedom, the sanctity of life, and the family. Liberty Counsel was founded in 1989 and has offices in Florida, Virginia and Washington, D.C., an outreach in Israel, and hundreds of advocates around the world.
Open the above link to see them numbered 1-10
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I do give you credit for PERSISTANCE in your WRONG THINKING.... I have NEVER judged Kim Davis's SOUL and NEITHER have I questioned her SALVATION... these accusations are FABRICATIONS OF YOURS. I have judged the SITUATION and the ISSUES and once again... I re-iterate... SOME PEOPLE actually DO clearly and correctly understand my position. You do not and are stubbornly holding your wrong interpretation of my comments as an EXCUSE to rail at me... that is wrong... so very wrong.
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Barly, you owe Kim Davis an apology. I won't be surprised if you fail to do so.
V
I beg to differ. Yes, that means I'm either calling you a liar, or confused. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Do you deny this is your post?
You might get away with a technicality if you were a politician, but your disingenuousness just grows more apparent with every post.
Big deal, you inserted the word "IF" in caps, as though that exonerates you from making an unrighteous judgment. Anyone can read that post and know what you did, and no denial from you will stand, either in this forum, or before God Himself.
I think my quoting of the post in which you did question her salvation, even though trying to do so "hypothetically," proves once again your either a liar, or confused.
There are many who see where you are coming from. I wouldn't go so far as to say they see it clearly, because there has been a great deal of effort to make correction of you by people from the same viewpoint. It seems to me that would demand of a reasonable person a reconsideration of what they have been saying.
My interpretation is not wrong. It is obvious what you are doing, and it is obvious it is sinful, unrighteous, and quickly becoming arrogant, willful sin.
Apparently you have no interest in considering you might be in error. Therefore, remain there for all I care. I'm sick of reading your defensive self-justifications and your persistent refusal to consider these cautionary posts and corrections -- not from just me, either -- might be God's way of trying to touch your spirit.
"If any man thinks ill of you, do not be angry with him, for you are worse than he thinks you to be." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon.
You might get away with a technicality if you were a politician, but your disingenuousness just grows more apparent with every post.
Big deal, you inserted the word "IF" in caps, as though that exonerates you from making an unrighteous judgment. Anyone can read that post and know what you did, and no denial from you will stand, either in this forum, or before God Himself.
I think my quoting of the post in which you did question her salvation, even though trying to do so "hypothetically," proves once again your either a liar, or confused.
There are many who see where you are coming from. I wouldn't go so far as to say they see it clearly, because there has been a great deal of effort to make correction of you by people from the same viewpoint. It seems to me that would demand of a reasonable person a reconsideration of what they have been saying.
My interpretation is not wrong. It is obvious what you are doing, and it is obvious it is sinful, unrighteous, and quickly becoming arrogant, willful sin.
Apparently you have no interest in considering you might be in error. Therefore, remain there for all I care. I'm sick of reading your defensive self-justifications and your persistent refusal to consider these cautionary posts and corrections -- not from just me, either -- might be God's way of trying to touch your spirit.
"If any man thinks ill of you, do not be angry with him, for you are worse than he thinks you to be." -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon.
V
That publication refutes everything you've claimed, conjectured, "hypothesized," or stated as "fact," and yet "there is nothing ... which changes [your] original premise or [your] firm decision to maintain it"? Then your own words convict you: Everything I have said about your is correct.
No, I guessed right for the correct reasons. You are stubbornly, willfully, arrogantly engaging in unrighteous anger, and your anger at correction just makes that more obvious.
No, I guessed right for the correct reasons. You are stubbornly, willfully, arrogantly engaging in unrighteous anger, and your anger at correction just makes that more obvious.