Can no longer separate sex from sin

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Feb 20, 2016
1,151
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#1
Let me start this off by saying I have never been abused in my life. Both my parents are godly loving people, and they did not teach me the things I'm about to say. I simply came to this conclusion on my own.

I still have a desire to marry, but the more I learn about how hard it is, the more hopeless it feels. Probably the most difficult area for me is sex. I'm a virgin in her mid-twenties who's never been asked out once (a rare breed, I know), so it's easy for me to think this way.

I've never looked at porn or anything like that. But I have my own struggles like everyone else. I have an on/off bad habit of reading smut, and no matter how many times I give in, I feel dirty. I've been told having these feelings is normal given my age. But I don't care. I'm a virgin so I'm not supposed to know about any of that stuff.

It's gotten to the point though where I can no longer mentally separate sex in general from sin. For one thing, sex more often than not does WAY more harm than good (STDs, unwanted pregnancies, affairs, human trafficking, porn, rape, incest, abuse, etc.). In fact, I get angry now if someone ever suggests sex is a good thing and natural. Natural does not equal good. It's natural for us to sin.

I don't care if it's God-given or natural. The point is I can no longer look forward to being with my future husband, if I ever even have a chance. And as a single person, I have no morally legal way to deal with my libido. I'm just supposed to pretend it doesn't exist. In fact, I'm appalled that I would want something so destructive and perverse.

I feel like I'm in a lose-lose situation. If I don't marry, then my drive really serves no purpose. But even if I do, I know I'm going to have to do a lot of mental clearing out to even have a chance of enjoying it.

There's this expectation in the Christian community that on your wedding night you just go from being a virgin to a vixen. What was once meant to be avoided like the plague is now to be enjoyed like there's no tomorrow. Now that it's pretty much impossible for me to not associate sex in general with sin…I don’t know. My point is you can't just say yes in one night after years of saying no.

If anyone wants to have an attempt at changing my mind, then go ahead.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#2
I'll take a stab at this, despite having not been a virgin for a long, long time.

This scripture came to mind
Isaiah 5:20 -
What sorrow for those who say that evil is good and good is evil, that dark is light and light is dark, that bitter is sweet and sweet is bitter.
To dismiss the notion that sex is, by it's very creation, not evil (bad, wrong, dirty, whatever) is to dismiss God's claims of what is good and what is evil. Sex, in the sense God intended it is not dirty, evil, wrong,etc... period. To say otherwise is to go against God's own words.
Either you have focused too much, or been mislead, into believing that it's an all or nothing topic and thus contradicting God.

Whatever notion that a virgin should be a 'vixen' on her wedding night does not come from God either. If anyone has told you that they're an idiot and giving you false beliefs. If you came up with it by yourself then it sounds like you are presuming what others expect in such a context and therefore speaking for others. It's pretty difficult to speak for strangers and get it right.
I can state, for a fact, if i ever married a virgin i would not expect her to be a vixen. Quite the opposite in fact and would enjoy being fortunate enough to share such experiences with the person i love.
Anyone who expects you to be a vixen on the first night is basically saying 'never even date me'. So avoid those creeps, because they do Not speak for everyone.
In fact I'd wager to say the experience of not knowing is what God intended. It may be awkward but it also be fun, if not taken too seriously.

I have heard of people commenting on the very thing you are saying, and i can understand. But also bear in mind part of your belief is affected by your lack of experience. Reading about it is nothing like engaging in it for real in the mental and emotional sense. So what it is to you now, and what it will be to you after some time with a husband will drastically alter your views.

My suggestion, relax. If you meet a guy where you feel his attitude/behavior will make things worse, get rid of him.



Another big issue is within the people labeled Christian. We do have some that wander deeply into religious territory and those are usually the ones using guilt and manipulation to control people in regards to sin. It sounds like you've been exposed to some of that.
On the other hand we have people on the opposite end of the spectrum that believe sex to be casual, or under certain circumstances, ok before marriage.
You get these two conflicting messages and i can see where it would leave someone in the mental state you are in. Perhaps swing your views to less extremes, rather than be affected by extremists.

By the way, it's pretty much expected that a new bride (and groom) be nervous for their honeymoon (assuming it's both or eithers first time). That's part of the enjoyment.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,275
113
#3
Let me start this off by saying I have never been abused in my life. Both my parents are godly loving people, and they did not teach me the things I'm about to say. I simply came to this conclusion on my own.

I still have a desire to marry, but the more I learn about how hard it is, the more hopeless it feels. Probably the most difficult area for me is sex. I'm a virgin in her mid-twenties who's never been asked out once (a rare breed, I know), so it's easy for me to think this way.

I've never looked at porn or anything like that. But I have my own struggles like everyone else. I have an on/off bad habit of reading smut, and no matter how many times I give in, I feel dirty. I've been told having these feelings is normal given my age. But I don't care. I'm a virgin so I'm not supposed to know about any of that stuff.

It's gotten to the point though where I can no longer mentally separate sex in general from sin. For one thing, sex more often than not does WAY more harm than good (STDs, unwanted pregnancies, affairs, human trafficking, porn, rape, incest, abuse, etc.). In fact, I get angry now if someone ever suggests sex is a good thing and natural. Natural does not equal good. It's natural for us to sin.

I don't care if it's God-given or natural. The point is I can no longer look forward to being with my future husband, if I ever even have a chance. And as a single person, I have no morally legal way to deal with my libido. I'm just supposed to pretend it doesn't exist. In fact, I'm appalled that I would want something so destructive and perverse.

I feel like I'm in a lose-lose situation. If I don't marry, then my drive really serves no purpose. But even if I do, I know I'm going to have to do a lot of mental clearing out to even have a chance of enjoying it.

There's this expectation in the Christian community that on your wedding night you just go from being a virgin to a vixen. What was once meant to be avoided like the plague is now to be enjoyed like there's no tomorrow. Now that it's pretty much impossible for me to not associate sex in general with sin…I don’t know. My point is you can't just say yes in one night after years of saying no.

If anyone wants to have an attempt at changing my mind, then go ahead.
Let me
start this off by saying I have never been abused in my life. Both my parents are godly loving people, and they did not teach me the things I'm about to say. I simply came to this conclusion on my own.

I still have a desire to marry, but the more I learn about how hard it is, the more hopeless it feels. Probably the most difficult area for me is sex. I'm a virgin in her mid-twenties who's never been asked out once (a rare breed, I know), so it's easy for me to think this way.

I've never looked at porn or anything like that. But I have my own struggles like everyone else. I have an on/off bad habit of reading smut, and no matter how many times I give in, I feel dirty. I've been told having these feelings is normal given my age. But I don't care. I'm a virgin so I'm not supposed to know about any of that stuff.

It's gotten to the point though where I can no longer mentally separate sex in general from sin. For one thing, sex more often than not does WAY more harm than good (STDs, unwanted pregnancies, affairs, human trafficking, porn, rape, incest, abuse, etc.). In fact, I get angry now if someone ever suggests sex is a good thing and natural. Natural does not equal good. It's natural for us to sin.

I don't care if it's God-given or natural. The point is I can no longer look forward to being with my future husband, if I ever even have a chance. And as a single person, I have no morally legal way to deal with my libido. I'm just supposed to pretend it doesn't exist. In fact, I'm appalled that I would want something so destructive and perverse.

I feel like I'm in a lose-lose situation. If I don't marry, then my drive really serves no purpose. But even if I do, I know I'm going to have to do a lot of mental clearing out to even have a chance of enjoying it.

There's this expectation in the Christian community that on your wedding night you just go from being a virgin to a vixen. What was once meant to be avoided like the plague is now to be enjoyed like there's no tomorrow. Now that it's pretty much impossible for me to not associate sex in general with sin…I don’t know. My point is you can't just say yes in one night after years of saying no.

If anyone wants to have an attempt at changing my mind, then go ahead.
Lol..dont beat yourself up too badly..i commend your abstinence..its hard..sexual drive and desire IS normal but our society is bombarded and obsessed with sex and not in a healthy pure way as God intended..so you have classic struggle of the mind betwen good and evil..satan uses smut to twust ur mind into believing certain things that arent true..tgats what Satan does..but focus your mind on whats good and true and youll find in God..a NEW meaning of love and intimacy that has nothing to do with sex...but you have to figure what thats all about first before you can truly love another in a healthy way..and as far as a wedding night..maybe youll marry another virgin or someone who is patient and loving with your lack of experience and will actually RESPECT you MORE for having waited to give yourself to them...thats part of the BEAUTY of marriage..growing together physically as well...get healthy in your spirit first..:)
 
Feb 20, 2016
1,151
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#4
To everyone wondering why I think in this extreme way, let me say I have high-functioning autism. I think in very black and white terms. If I see more black in something than white, then my mind automatically tends to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Not that I want it to. It's just that my brain thinks very logically and thinks, "How can something be good if it's expressed in so many ways that have huge catastrophic consequences?" Trying to keep my mind in a grey area takes a lot of mental energy for me, and it's distressing.

Like I said before, I've observed that sex tends to cause a lot more harm than good. But you're right. It might partly be because I have no experience with romance whatsoever (which makes me feel all the more isolated), so I've never really seen it used the "right" way.

To give another example, I know sex in marriage is compared to fire in a fireplace, but to me, it doesn't matter whether the fire is in a fireplace or an open field. The fact remains that fire is dangerous.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,456
3,506
113
#5
Let me start this off by saying I have never been abused in my life. Both my parents are godly loving people, and they did not teach me the things I'm about to say. I simply came to this conclusion on my own.

I still have a desire to marry, but the more I learn about how hard it is, the more hopeless it feels. Probably the most difficult area for me is sex. I'm a virgin in her mid-twenties who's never been asked out once (a rare breed, I know), so it's easy for me to think this way.

I've never looked at porn or anything like that. But I have my own struggles like everyone else. I have an on/off bad habit of reading smut, and no matter how many times I give in, I feel dirty. I've been told having these feelings is normal given my age. But I don't care. I'm a virgin so I'm not supposed to know about any of that stuff.

It's gotten to the point though where I can no longer mentally separate sex in general from sin. For one thing, sex more often than not does WAY more harm than good (STDs, unwanted pregnancies, affairs, human trafficking, porn, rape, incest, abuse, etc.). In fact, I get angry now if someone ever suggests sex is a good thing and natural. Natural does not equal good. It's natural for us to sin.

I don't care if it's God-given or natural. The point is I can no longer look forward to being with my future husband, if I ever even have a chance. And as a single person, I have no morally legal way to deal with my libido. I'm just supposed to pretend it doesn't exist. In fact, I'm appalled that I would want something so destructive and perverse.

I feel like I'm in a lose-lose situation. If I don't marry, then my drive really serves no purpose. But even if I do, I know I'm going to have to do a lot of mental clearing out to even have a chance of enjoying it.

There's this expectation in the Christian community that on your wedding night you just go from being a virgin to a vixen. What was once meant to be avoided like the plague is now to be enjoyed like there's no tomorrow. Now that it's pretty much impossible for me to not associate sex in general with sin…I don’t know. My point is you can't just say yes in one night after years of saying no.

If anyone wants to have an attempt at changing my mind, then go ahead.
You have either condition yourself or you have been conditioned to believe sex is sin..

When the Biblical truth of the matter is sex outside of marriage is sin..

But sex within marriage is good..

It is sad that you have developed this twisted view of sex.. But it is something you will need to correct for yourself if you wish to have a Biblical supported and approved, healthy marriage..
 
Feb 20, 2016
1,151
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#6
You have either condition yourself or you have been conditioned to believe sex is sin..

When the Biblical truth of the matter is sex outside of marriage is sin..

But sex within marriage is good..

It is sad that you have developed this twisted view of sex.. But it is something you will need to correct for yourself if you wish to have a Biblical supported and approved, healthy marriage..
I'm sad about it too. All my life I've had to deal with being different and seeing the world differently from everyone else. Not that I'm fishing for sympathy. I'm just making it clear for everyone.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#7
To everyone wondering why I think in this extreme way, let me say I have high-functioning autism. I think in very black and white terms. If I see more black in something than white, then my mind automatically tends to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Not that I want it to. It's just that my brain thinks very logically and thinks, "How can something be good if it's expressed in so many ways that have huge catastrophic consequences?" Trying to keep my mind in a grey area takes a lot of mental energy for me, and it's distressing.

Like I said before, I've observed that sex tends to cause a lot more harm than good. But you're right. It might partly be because I have no experience with romance whatsoever (which makes me feel all the more isolated), so I've never really seen it used the "right" way.

To give another example, I know sex in marriage is compared to fire in a fireplace, but to me, it doesn't matter whether the fire is in a fireplace or an open field. The fact remains that fire is dangerous.
Fire is dangerous... when misused. It can be used for evil, to burn down a house, or for good, to cook a meal for a family.
Sex is the same way. When misused it's a dangerous act that can cause a plethora of problems. When used the way it was intended it's a wonderful expression of love.
Would you call a knife bad? It can be used to stab someone, or cut the seat belt off someone trapped in a car after an accident.

But it's good to see you reaching out and trying to understand and challenge yourself and your autism. It's very easy to just let things happen and do nothing.
 
Feb 20, 2016
1,151
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#8
Fire is dangerous... when misused. It can be used for evil, to burn down a house, or for good, to cook a meal for a family.
Sex is the same way. When misused it's a dangerous act that can cause a plethora of problems. When used the way it was intended it's a wonderful expression of love.
Would you call a knife bad? It can be used to stab someone, or cut the seat belt off someone trapped in a car after an accident.

But it's good to see you reaching out and trying to understand and challenge yourself and your autism. It's very easy to just let things happen and do nothing.
This is a problem I've had pretty much all my life. Viewing the world differently from others and not having the same life experiences either often makes me feel alone, sometimes to the point where I don't feel fully human. Relationships in general are a big question mark for people like me, which is why I don't think I would last very long in a romantic relationship, let alone marriage.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#9
This is a problem I've had pretty much all my life. Viewing the world differently from others and not having the same life experiences either often makes me feel alone, sometimes to the point where I don't feel fully human. Relationships in general are a big question mark for people like me, which is why I don't think I would last very long in a romantic relationship, let alone marriage.
We all feel that way at times, and some people more than others.
I, myself, feel I've lacked in experiencing very much. And having depression makes me feel like i often cannot be fully engaged in what i Do experience. So i may not fully understand, but i do so enough to have some idea of where you're coming from.
And I often deal with seeing things differently than many others, though, again, not to the degree you do I'm sure.
There are millions, if not billions, of people on earth right now feeling they are misunderstood or don't belong. It's more common than you think.

Relationships can be difficult for people with autism, true, but not impossible. Just pray that if and when the time comes you'll be in a better state of mind on the subject. Whether it happens over time or suddenly when needed. And, as we all should be doing, keep working on growing.
 

Tommy379

Notorious Member
Jan 12, 2016
7,589
1,151
113
#10
Historyprincess, you need a therapist.

Christians have a tendency to do this to each other. Surround everything with shame and guilt.

This is why we end up with dysfunctional people. This is why we end up with cults that castrate themselves.
This is also why we end up with polygamy cults.

Sex ain't no sin.

Get some help princess, and not on an internet forum.
 
Feb 20, 2016
1,151
266
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#11
Historyprincess, you need a therapist.

Christians have a tendency to do this to each other. Surround everything with shame and guilt.

This is why we end up with dysfunctional people. This is why we end up with cults that castrate themselves.
This is also why we end up with polygamy cults.

Sex ain't no sin.

Get some help princess, and not on an internet forum.
I am getting help, actually. And yes, I need to watch the stupid things I post.
 

Tommy379

Notorious Member
Jan 12, 2016
7,589
1,151
113
#12
I am getting help, actually. And yes, I need to watch the stupid things I post.
I don't see a problem with what you post, even the commie stuff you have been writing about lately.

I just think you need to see a professional in person. I don't find anything in the bible to suggest that sexual reproduction and the associated processes are an inherent sin.

I remember you writing a year ago or so, about you wanting to be married so you could have relations. What's up lately. Anything specific changing you?
 
Feb 20, 2016
1,151
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#13
I don't see a problem with what you post, even the commie stuff you have been writing about lately.

I just think you need to see a professional in person. I don't find anything in the bible to suggest that sexual reproduction and the associated processes are an inherent sin.

I remember you writing a year ago or so, about you wanting to be married so you could have relations. What's up lately. Anything specific changing you?
A lot can change in a year. But I'm gonna take all this to my therapist.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
25,094
8,249
113
#14
For some reason this whole thread reminds me of an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation where they found an isolated colony... of clones. The clones were nearing the end of their society's lifespan because you can only clone a genetic pattern so many times before the original pattern fades and is unusable for cloning, so they were forced to consider reproduction the natural way, but they had come to view sex as something really gross. They had to make a few radical adjustments to keep their society going.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,275
113
#15
Historyprincess, you need a therapist.

Christians have a tendency to do this to each other. Surround everything with shame and guilt.

This is why we end up with dysfunctional people. This is why we end up with cults that castrate themselves.
This is also why we end up with polygamy cults.

Sex ain't no sin.

Get some help princess, and not on an internet forum.
Sex isnt a sin INSIDE the covenant of MARRIAGE....:)
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
6,032
3,285
113
#16
I think the Church (broad generalization to follow) has really failed when it comes to developing healthy attitudes towards sex.

Many teens and young adults are running around doing everything but "it" because all they've ever heard is "DON'T HAVE SEX" from their parents and pastors. No balanced perspective on biblical purity which entails a whole lot more than just not engaging in intercourse.

In some congregations young ladies can easily develop the understanding that sex is in some way dirty because their mothers never tell them about the beauty of the marriage bed. My pastor has commented that routinely they (he and his wife) have had to deal with counseling young wives and their husbands as they work through overcoming her anxieties.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
14,991
4,608
113
#17
I think the Church (broad generalization to follow) has really failed when it comes to developing healthy attitudes towards sex.

Many teens and young adults are running around doing everything but "it" because all they've ever heard is "DON'T HAVE SEX" from their parents and pastors. No balanced perspective on biblical purity which entails a whole lot more than just not engaging in intercourse.

In some congregations young ladies can easily develop the understanding that sex is in some way dirty because their mothers never tell them about the beauty of the marriage bed. My pastor has commented that routinely they (he and his wife) have had to deal with counseling young wives and their husbands as they work through overcoming her anxieties.
I've mentioned this several times over the years, but I grew up in a Christian school whose basic attitude about sex was, "Don't think about it. Don't do it. And, for heaven's sake, don't ask us about it!" We received absolutely zero sex education at all. The only time we heard about sex was when it was recited in a Bible passage and when we were told not to do it.

In the meantime... The "cool" guys in my class bragged about going to the local strip club every weekend, and one guy would show off the condoms he carried in his wallet. Any girl who got pregnant in our school "disappeared" (she was asked not to come back... so much for an actual demonstration of the love and forgiveness we heard about every single day.)

Christian institutions are still businesses and apparently it's bad for business to advertise yourself as a Christian school and have unmarried, pregnant girls walking down the hall. One couple got caught skipping school and it was later discovered that they had gone to get an abortion. Anyone who thinks that their children are going to be sheltered from the evils of the world will most likely be sorely disappointed.

I don't know what the answers are, but something doesn't seem to be working in most of the church culture.

I always find it... interesting... that over and over again, I see and read about complaining that Christian women have impossible standards regarding a man's looks and earnings that are no different from worldly women.

And yet... Do they ever talk about the flip side? I have talked to several Christian men (some from this site) who admit that they don't really want to marry a Christian woman because they are afraid she will be plain, cold, and downright boring regarding sex.

Most singles have had some kind of exposure to porn, and this sets up a standard that I'm guessing no one can meet anytime soon after getting married, if not ever.

The culture is set up so that people want someone who can perform like an accomplished expert and beyond--WITHOUT ever having any actual exposure or experience... and then we wonder why everyone feels so anxious and disappointed.

I don't know what the answer is, but it certainly seems to be a major factor of a large portion of marital dissatisfaction and breakups.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
25,094
8,249
113
#18
*Lynx catches up on the thread...

I've said it before - y'all must have never been to my church. Pastor doesn't get pornographic, but things that need to get discussed get discussed.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,920
1,591
113
47
#19
Male sexuality gets shamed as well, albeit in different ways from women's. I alluded to that in the "WD" thread.
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
6,032
3,285
113
#20
*Lynx catches up on the thread...

I've said it before - y'all must have never been to my church. Pastor doesn't get pornographic, but things that need to get discussed get discussed.
As I stated in my post, it was a broad generalization.

I know that my senior pastor has no problem discussing what needs to be discussed from the pulpit. From what I've heard from those couples who have gone through his premarital counseling (done as a team with his wife) he has absolutely no problem discussing marital sex in more detail than he would from the pulpit.