Defining Virginty

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Sep 8, 2012
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#81
When I was looking for a virgin bride, I didn't care if she had busted a membrane on a bicycle or something like that, but I did want a woman who had never been with another man.

I think you are the one who is concerned so much about hymens on the thread.
By your own words:
- You wanted a woman who had never been with another man.
Fair enough. (God does too, yet all had sinned.)
One who looks always to the flesh cannot deduce spiritual things.
Who of the Body of Christ had not previously sinned - thus been bedfellows with another?
Now, is it a strange thing for the redeemed to think in spiritual terms, - as God who is a spirit?
- You tell me.
- - (And let God be the judge of who is a virgin, and who has not been reborn)
- - - Those that mind the things of the flesh are carnal, those that mind the things of the spirit are heavenly minded.

Too much on carnal(flesh) purity, not enough on spiritual renewal.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#82
The Bible doesn't talk about 'spiritual virginity' for individual's bodies after salvation. If you are married before conversation, you don't become a single virgin after conversion.
So the body is not made holy at conversion?
So what temple does the Holy Spirit reside in?
And if you are right, why stop sinning, - since the spirit and body are completely separate entities; and not joined by the soul?
 

Liamson

Senior Member
Feb 3, 2010
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#83
By your own words:
- You wanted a woman who had never been with another man.
Fair enough. (God does too, yet all had sinned.)
One who looks always to the flesh cannot deduce spiritual things.
Who of the Body of Christ had not previously sinned - thus been bedfellows with another?
Now, is it a strange thing for the redeemed to think in spiritual terms, - as God who is a spirit?
- You tell me.
- - (And let God be the judge of who is a virgin, and who has not been reborn)
- - - Those that mind the things of the flesh are carnal, those that mind the things of the spirit are heavenly minded.

Too much on carnal(flesh) purity, not enough on spiritual renewal.
So the body is not made holy at conversion?
So what temple does the Holy Spirit reside in?
And if you are right, why stop sinning, - since the spirit and body are completely separate entities; and not joined by the soul?

So do you have any tattoos?

No.

But clearly I see your tattoos.


Well I got those before I became a Christian so they don't count.


???

What about piercings?


Nope... doesn't count either, cause I'm a new creation.

STDs? Kids?



Nope I'm a Virgin.


*facepalm*


All this nonsense is just wishful thinking. I don't really care if a woman is or isn't a Virgin. You are making this about something that its not about. Yes, its not about a bike accident. And yes its not about Repentance and Salvation, it is about Virginity. Essentially its about Knowledge. Does she or he Know from experience what it is like to have sex, because they have had sex.


"What does Marcellus Wallace Look Like?"
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#84
So do you have any tattoos?

No.

But clearly I see your tattoos.


Well I got those before I became a Christian so they don't count.


???

What about piercings?


Nope... doesn't count either, cause I'm a new creation.

STDs? Kids?



Nope I'm a Virgin.


*facepalm*


All this nonsense is just wishful thinking. I don't really care if a woman is or isn't a Virgin. You are making this about something that its not about. Yes, its not about a bike accident. And yes its not about Repentance and Salvation, it is about Virginity. Essentially its about Knowledge. Does she or he Know from experience what it is like to have sex, because they have had sex.


"What does Marcellus Wallace Look Like?"

What???

Faceplant yourself for that meandering post.

- (The idea is to answer the other persons points.)
- - (None of mine you brought up, but used my name anyway.)
- - -( Try decaf,.......or increase the medication)
 

Liamson

Senior Member
Feb 3, 2010
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#87
What???

Faceplant yourself for that meandering post.

- (The idea is to answer the other persons points.)
- - (None of mine you brought up, but used my name anyway.)
- - -( Try decaf,.......or increase the medication)
- (you obviously have no idea how a conversational Simile works)
- - (Its not the points its the dialogue, tone and meaning I am addressing) You are too heavenly minded to be of any good in a discussion about Virginity. Your posts are so lathered in lofty Christianese as to be rendered compellingly useless in propelling this discussion toward a meaningful resolution.

Is God a Spirit? I'm not even going to answer that. Short Answer, No. Long Answer, Read Immanuel Kant.

Should God alone Judge who is a Virgin and who isn't? No, thats missing the point of the utility of the Word.


When someone asks if a person is a Virgin, what is implied by Yes? What is implied by No? That is what we are talking about. What can I infer about a girl when a girl tells me that she is a Virgin?

You rabbit trails about spiritual Adultery and renewal, led to my tattoo comparison, which frankly if you can't see the parallel I'm not going to explain it to you.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#88
- (you obviously have no idea how a conversational Simile works)
- - (Its not the points its the dialogue, tone and meaning I am addressing) You are too heavenly minded to be of any good in a discussion about Virginity. Your posts are so lathered in lofty Christianese as to be rendered compellingly useless in propelling this discussion toward a meaningful resolution.

Is God a Spirit? I'm not even going to answer that. Short Answer, No. Long Answer, Read Immanuel Kant.

Should God alone Judge who is a Virgin and who isn't? No, thats missing the point of the utility of the Word.


When someone asks if a person is a Virgin, what is implied by Yes? What is implied by No? That is what we are talking about. What can I infer about a girl when a girl tells me that she is a Virgin?

You rabbit trails about spiritual Adultery and renewal, led to my tattoo comparison, which frankly if you can't see the parallel I'm not going to explain it to you.
You need to increase your meds,....or decrease them.
 

Liamson

Senior Member
Feb 3, 2010
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#89
Well, its very hard to take your points seriously when you can't even stay on topic and frankly, my "Meds" are none of your concern, nor are they relevant to a conversation about Virginity.

I don't even drink Coffee or take anything so, why don't you ruminate over why the tone of this conversation has digress to the point of you rendering counter points in the form of character insults.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#90
Well, its very hard to take your points seriously when you can't even stay on topic and frankly, my "Meds" are none of your concern, nor are they relevant to a conversation about Virginity.

I don't even drink Coffee or take anything so, why don't you ruminate over why the tone of this conversation has digress to the point of you rendering counter points in the form of character insults.
What? You said God is not a spirit.
Kant never explicitly said that.
Nor did the Bible. (In fact it claims the fact over and over that He is)
What do you expect me to say? - "Oh, good golly you made a good point there sir"
- - Honestly.
- - - Go to a site that deals with vague proficiencies in the mundane, - this is a Bible forum.
 

DuchessAimee

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2011
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#91
Why is this thread still going? Virginity has been defined. Some people accept the actual definition, and some people don't. Let's move on.
 

DuchessAimee

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2011
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#92
What? You said God is not a spirit.
Kant never explicitly said that.
Nor did the Bible. (In fact it claims the fact over and over that He is)
What do you expect me to say? - "Oh, good golly you made a good point there sir"
- - Honestly.
- - - Go to a site that deals with vague proficiencies in the mundane, - this is a Bible forum.


Nope. It's the Singles Forum. We goof off here. Sometimes we talk about serious things, but mostly, we goof off.



This thread is done. Let's move on.
 

Liamson

Senior Member
Feb 3, 2010
3,078
69
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#93
What? You said God is not a spirit.
Kant never explicitly said that.
Nor did the Bible. (In fact it claims the fact over and over that He is)
What do you expect me to say? - "Oh, good golly you made a good point there sir"
- - Honestly.
- - - Go to a site that deals with vague proficiencies in the mundane, - this is a Bible forum.
Since when is God merely Limited to being a Spirit?


And still very irrelevant to Virginity.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#94
For the accident analogy...
A person driving a car is a driver, right? If someone hits them does that mean they are no longer the driver?
If a girl is a virgin she is a virgin... Someone wrecking into her life doesn't change that.
I believe the following would be a proper way to illustrate this analogy as it is related to the thread topic:

body of car => body of woman
driver of car => soul of woman

virginity --> body is "unspotted" ( still 'pure' - has never been 'altered' / 'changed' / 'touched' - still 'pristine' ); does not apply to driver / soul

car sustains 'hit and run' / woman is raped

body no longer 'virgin' ( no longer 'pure' - has been 'altered' / 'changed' / 'touched' - no longer 'pristine' )

body can never return to its original 'virgin' state

body will never again be 'pure' or 'pristine'

-----

In the above illustration, 'virginity' describes a state-of-existance of the body -- relative to its original state. In no way is it directly connected to the driver / soul. ( except for the sake of identity -- "a virgin car" or "a virgin woman" )

There is no such thing as 'spiritual' virginity.

There is such a thing as 'spiritual' purity.


The meaning of 'purity' covers a whole spectrum of things - including some 'physical' things and some 'spiritual' things. ( 'virginity' is only one [ very specific ] thing, and is 100% 'physical' - and is a part of the 'physical' things of purity )

What is "spotted" --- is "spotted"... However...

"There may be personal shame involved with intentionally wrecking your own car -- there is none when you could not have prevented it."

The idea of 'shame' in this context is not just a 'virginity' issue -- it is, in fact, mostly a 'purity' issue.

In this context, comparatively speaking:

'virginity' describes the state-of-existance and condition of the body
'purity' describes the state-of-existance and condition of the soul

Yes -- being a virgin - "pure and unspotted" ( "untouched" ) - when you marry -- is a "special gift" for the spouse.

And, yes -- from God's perspective -- there is some "shame" associated with the loss of it ( even in a case of rape ) before marriage.

There is more than one kind of 'shame' related to the loss of virginity.

The personal shame mentioned above exists in some situations, but not in others. I believe that THIS is the kind of shame that the OP is thinking is being directly associated with virginity [ "by default" ].

Another kind of shame - based on the fact that God's intent and plan for us has been "violated" - always applies...

Still another kind of shame - based on the "disappointment" that is experienced by the spouse - usually applies...

'virginity' is only a part of 'purity' -- it does not EQUAL or DEFINE 'purity'

"Don't get it all mixed up..." ;)

:)
 
G

GRA

Guest
#95
We are speaking of the different 'spiritual' fact that God can make a new creation.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. ~ 2 Corinthians 5:17

The real essence of the new creature - that which has "become new" - is with the soul and spirit, not the body.

The finishing of our salvation is the redemption of our body:

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. ~ Romans 8:23

Until then, we have to "deal with the flesh" ( our 'natural' body ). The "old nature" is still present "in our flesh" -- and will be -- until we obtain our "glorified" body ( like Christ ) :

[SUP]20[/SUP] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [SUP]21[/SUP] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. ~ Philippians 3:20-21

When God "makes a new creature" - it is a 'spiritual' change that takes place -- and has NO effect on the "state" of 'virginity' --- which is [ strictly ] 'physical'.

:)
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#96
So the body is not made holy at conversion?
So what temple does the Holy Spirit reside in?
And if you are right, why stop sinning, - since the spirit and body are completely separate entities; and not joined by the soul?
That's not what I said. If a married couple get saved both at the same time, does that make them virgins at conversion? Would that also nullify their marriage? Does the hymen return at salvation?

You seem to be equating holy with virginity. There are plenty of holy nonvirgins. Married people can have sex and be holy, too. Marriage is holy in all, and the bed undefiled.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,093
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#97
How about this? Let's say a Christian man reads Jesus' words, "And he that marries her that is divorced commits adultery" and resolves not to marry a divorced woman.

There is this woman who wants to marry a Christian man. She slept with 200 guys, got married three times and divorced from each of them. Then she gets saved. But she reads a few posts from this thread and 'finds out' that she became a virgin at conversion. She reasons if she has gotten saved, she has never been divorced either, since she is a new creature.

She meets the guy who doesn't want to marry a divorced woman. They date. She insists that she is a virgin and is not a divorced woman. After a whirlwind relationship, they marry.

Eventually, of course, he finds out.

Is what the woman did right?
 
I

isaria

Guest
#98
Depends the culture and religions definition.
Some say a penetration with no energy, holy spirit and stagnant and no feeling and etc is not real intercourse untill the holy spirits come in holy union while others say "its just bad sex".
One reveran said to a girl who had been with a man "there is a second virginity".
He was christian but kept saying this to her as she was upset a man had entered her.
A woman should not be so blamed, specially if she was raped and broken.
She can be purified and pray surely all is not lost for a woman who no longer virgin.
 
G

GRA

Guest
#99
Depends the culture and religions definition.
No - it depends only on the simple definition based on the 'physicality' of it. ( See my next comment below. )


Some say a penetration with no energy, holy spirit and stagnant and no feeling and etc is not real intercourse untill the holy spirits come in holy union while others say "its just bad sex".
The key word here is 'penetration' - not 'intercourse'. Anyone can define "real intercourse" all they want - all day long - yet, virginity is lost at the moment of penetration. Why? Because it is at that moment that the genitals - male and female - become "touched" - "spotted" - "no longer pure" ( 'virgin' means "pure and unspotted" ).

Please understand that the simple definition of 'virgin' as "pure and unspotted" does not mean that the loss of it [ automatically, by definition ] "puts a black mark on your name" -- it is not that kind of meaning. Virginity is "lost" on the wedding night - and, it is perfectly valid as such. The simple fact is - when you have been 'touched' - you are no longer considered to be 'untouched'. This is the simple definition. The validity of it - good or bad - right or wrong - sin or not - shame or not - rests - not in the simple definition itself - but rather, in the circumstances of the loss of it.

This simple definition of "pure and unspotted" applies exactly the same to all situations and circumstances - whatever the validity of it might be -- because - it is based on the 'physicality' of it - and nothing else. The 'judgment' and 'shame' of it are entirely separate issues altogether.

The meaning of 'virgin' - by definition - does not include 'judgment' or 'shame' -- only the simple fact of 'untouched'.


One reveran said to a girl who had been with a man "there is a second virginity".
He was christian but kept saying this to her as she was upset a man had entered her.
The reverend was wrong. Far better to let her be upset while making sure she realizes and understands that:

~ her virginity is lost, and cannot be "regained"; however, ...
~ "life is not over" - "all is not lost" - "the thing is survivable"
~ she cannot change the past - the time to change it was in the past - if she could have prevented it
~ "time to move forward and make the best of everything based on the circumstances of the moment"

By saying these things, I am not endorsing being insensitive to her situation. I am only saying:

"She needs to accept the reality of it -- and pick up the pieces and move forward."


A woman should not be so blamed, specially if she was raped and broken.
I don't believe anyone in this thread has stated that a woman should be "shamed" for having been raped. However, to say that a woman who has been raped is still a 'virgin' - still "pure and unspotted" - is untruthful and very unwise. It defies the definition ( "tells a blatant lie" ) and perpetuates the kinds of scenarios that presidente has been illustrating in his posts - creating all kinds of detrimental problems for all involved...


She can be purified and pray surely all is not lost for a woman who no longer virgin.
Of course. But, "can be purified" in this statement cannot include "revoking reality and getting your virginity back"...

:)
 
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woka

Guest
It is so easy for all of us to say how the rape victim should fee, how the rape victim should interprit her rape, how the rape victim should tell her future husband because HE MIGHT FEEL DEFRAUDED. So tell me guys when does it become about the vicitm??? When does it come about how she or he wants to process it???? When does it NOT become about how anybody she might come across might feel about her just because she deals with it on the level she knows best how to.

How dare we decide how she should feel, how dare we suggest how she or he should interprit it. How many of you have sat opposite someone who has been raped? All we ever need to do is love people with the love of the Lord. And quite frankly if that husband on the wedding night feels defrauded it would be off to the divorce courts for me first thing in the morning. To think that I fell in love with and married a man I had to share my past with??? Where is this is the word? I am responsibile to him only AFTER my marriage for my acts and happenings.