Porn/Sex Addiction (Warning: graphic words)

[QuestionTime]

I found my husband late on Halloween night on the computer looking at 2 young, beautiful naked blonds on the internet. Instead of having intimate time with me he found it on the internet. He since has stated he has done this for 7 years having seen hundreds of naked women. We have been married 32 years. Many difficult situations we have been through. We were both virgins and christians when we married. But life has thrown some real loops and the year after our youngest child (3 children) graduated from high school he was doing pornography. We have been active in many ways in churches (I a volunteer church organist 12 years for example) but currently just are attending church. Sitting in church with my husband is a different experience now. We have had many arguments through the years and we have not been perfect people. He states since being caught he has repented and has asked forgiveness from me but we still argue. I never dreamt on my wedding day the things I would have experienced in life. Now I'm not sure to stay together or separate/divorce. The relationship is very changed. Any comments?

Greetings Meto,

My most sincere sympathies go out to you for the difficulties that you are facing! I am sure this must hurt very deeply.

To begin with, Jesus says that the only acceptable reason for divorce is committing adultery. Is viewing pornography equivalent to committing adultery? I can't speak for God as to His opinion, but I will say two things: First, I know that most women who have caught their husbands looking at pornography feel as though they have been cheated upon. Second, I will say that pornography makes men distant from their wives, which would also happen if a man was physically cheating with a woman.

On the other hand, Jesus doesn't say that you MUST divorce someone for physical or visual adultery. You did marry him with the commitment to be there for him through thick and thin.

I've read stories of men who have overcome their sex addictions and have rebuilt their marriages. The women always say how wonderful their relationship has become now that the porn is gone. They often say that they love each other more than they ever could have imagined.

Moving on, I will comment that your husband has claimed to have repented. Perhaps his behavior was not addictive, perhaps it is an addiction. Perhaps it is new, perhaps he has hidden it from you for some time. I really don't know. But I know that if he has been addicted to porn for a long time, that he will most likely despise his behavior.

Now if he is addicted and yearns for freedom from his bonds, he needs to find the way to freedom. That's what my thread is all about. I received a new revelation that seems to fit in with scripture perfectly. Maybe what I wrote above is what he needs to hear?

Quest

 

[Not_The_Righteous]

I detect the smell of Keswick and/or Wesleyan perfectionism, maybe I am wrong but your primary spiritual influences sort of give me the feeling you know what I am talking about.

Sanctification isn't instant. Perfection doesn't come all at one moment at a second, full blessing where the Christian realizes he's actually sinless.

You still must contend with the old man. You must still run the race. Sanctification is progressive, not instantaneous. If it were instantaneous and final, there wouldn't be any need for the numerous passages of Scripture which exhort/encourage the believer to persevere in righteousness, flee immorality, pursue Christ and to meditate on "lovely" things as opposed to fleshly things.

It's the reason Christians are designed to exist in community - in a local expression of the Body of Christ, and not off on their own. I'm sorry about your church situation, but the church isn't an outdated option for the Christian. We were called as a People and we're supposed to live in community.

This whole "power in the objects" thing might have some value in it depending on what you mean, but where you start breaking away from clear teachings such as "flee immorality" (1 Cor. 6 - which is featured around the particular sin of sexual immorality) or prescriptive verses for dealing with sin (Ephesians 5; 1 John, Phil 3, Hebrews 12-13 immediately spring to mind) under the impression that none of that is necessary because what is wrong with us is our thinking is where you go completely off the tracks.

I read old saints too. Augustine, Luther, Edwards, Owen, Whitefield, Etc. have to say their view of sanctification is far more verifiable biblically than Wesley, Nee, or Finney's ever was. Finney in particular. Not wanting to start a fight, but you've got a particular strain your're reading there and on sanctification they're far from problematic.

 

[QuestionTime]

This whole "power in the objects" thing might have some value in it depending on what you mean, but where you start breaking away from clear teachings such as "flee immorality" (1 Cor. 6 - which is featured around the particular sin of sexual immorality) or prescriptive verses for dealing with sin (Ephesians 5; 1 John, Phil 3, Hebrews 12-13 immediately spring to mind) under the impression that none of that is necessary because what is wrong with us is our thinking is where you go completely off the tracks.

Thanks for your post!

To begin with, I must say that I have no interest in debating Calvinism and Arminianism, or various interpretations of Sanctification. That is not the intent of this thread, besides which I don't agree with you and you know it. Debates are a waste of time, however - if you are interested - YouTube is a very popular place for that activity. I have long since given up these debates, because at best they accomplish nothing and at worst they tend to ungodliness.

Regarding the "power in the objects thing" I must say that this is 100% scriptural. We are dead to sin, sin has no dominion, etc., etc.. As for fleeing sexual immorality and the prescriptive verses for dealing with sin that you offer, I propose that those things are spiritual "milk" which is fit for infants and not "meat" fit for adults. I am looking for meat and potatoes Christianity, not the basics. It seems to me that the whole of Christianity today prefers milk to meat and that's why so many Christians live for years trapped in sin.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Quest

 

[greatkraw]

I do understand forgiveness and cleansing of sin. However, my understanding is much different than the general understanding of this scripture found in most Churches in the world today.

My understanding is the same as Andrew Murray, Smith Wigglesworth, John Wesley, Charles Finney, William Booth and other saints of the past. They taught that the cleansing is one and the same with being filled by the Spirit, and being filled by the Spirit is the removal of the sin nature. The cleansing is a one time occurrence, not a repeated occurrence, for if we are cleansed of all sin, then no sin remaineth.

Quest

Paul never taught that ; Paul never experienced that

do not let yourself be fooled

 

[sunshine_debbie]

Hello Debbie,

I'm glad to hear that you couldn't smoke. I've heard stories and known people as well who were prayed for that they would be sick if they drank or smoked again. Amazingly they did get sick and quickly stopped their bad habits!

I don't know what you mean by your statement: God's conviction or personal choice. If you are asking me if I know that my behavior has been sinful; I most certainly do. However that conviction has not brought about an inability to act contrary to God's Word like you have experienced. In fact, I would say the guilt - or more likely, the condemnation - has driven me to the sin more than it has to God.

Trust me, I'm no rookie to Christianity. I've read Wesley and Finney, Andrew Murray, Smith Wigglesworth and William Booth as well as other old saints. I've read about sanctification and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I've watched Leonard Ravenhill preach and sang victoriously along with Keith Green.

The issue isn't an unwilling heart, it's unbelief because I haven't known how to believe that I am dead to sin. But now perhaps I have stumbled upon the way, the means by how I may know that I have died. I do hope to find some discussions on that topic.

Quest

I was responding to and agreeing to a point that greatkraw was making. He said that if you are listening to a message you arent looking at porn.

I was giving a personal example of how I could not smoke a ciggarette and read my Bible. I could read other books and smoke, but not my Bible.

If you use this correlation you can see that if you are trying to overcome a porn addiction, perhaps the best place to spend your time is in the Bible or in Church, because you are not going to watch it there. And keep going to church and reading the Bible until the urge to look at porn passes. If it is such a problem that you can not stay away from the computer porn - get rid of it (like I did the ciggarettes).

Thats all I was trying to say.

Debbie

 

[QuestionTime]

Disappointment

I created this thread to offer hope to people who feel trapped in addictive behavior. I presented new concepts that I have never heard before, and that others also have never heard. My hope was for productive conversation on the topic I presented.

However, the ideas that I presented have generally been disregarded. I have received a lot of advice, the same advice given to men in my situation continually. These advices haven't helped me personally in 18 years and they haven't helped millions of other addicted men, but they are regurgitated repeatedly. When people offer these advices and find the person does not change, they get confused. They just can't understand why it doesn't help. I feel the reason these suggestions don't help is because they are only designed by God to be spiritual milk for infant needs. Scriptures such as making a straight path for our feet and fleeing sin are for babes in Christianity. Babes need to know that God doesn't want them participating in these activities. To that end I answer with "Duh."

Furthermore, I have had people mock or disregard what I had to say. Worse yet debates were started against me on various issues leading the thread from one of hope to one of argument. None of this has been productive whatsoever.

I am glad that at least one person who read this thread has experienced a new revelation. Because of this revelation I have been totally free of my addictive behavior for several days now, and I have no fear of being enslaved again. This is new to me.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Moutains and Bodies

I've been thinking tonight of a comparison between two created things. Two things created by God that men find extremely beautiful.

The first thing I will speak about is Mountains. Mountains are very beautiful. The trees, the rivers and the valleys. Men travel long distances to visit the Mountains to enjoy a time of tranquility in their presence, or for the challenge of navigating to their peaks.

But when the time comes, men leave the Mountains behind. They don't dream night and day of the Mountains to the point where it disturbs their lives. The Mountains are given a sensible place. They love to visit them, but it doesn't control their lives.

The second thing I will speak about is the female body. The female body is very beautiful. Navigating the curves as well as the warmth of being close with one is very exciting and also can bring great peace.

But when the time of connection for healthy married men ends, they leave the female body behind. They don't dream of it day and night to the point where it disturbs their lives. The female body is given a sensible place. They love to visit, but it doesn't control their lives.

For a single man, they desire to visit the female body just as they do the Mountains. They plan someday to drive out West to see them. They work and save their money and plan the vacation. This is likewise equivalent to marriage. Single men want to have a "vacation" of sorts with a beautiful wife and her enjoy her body and so they work and date and plan the wedding.

There is no difference between the two things. If we have seen a difference then it is because we have imagined something that simply isn't true.

Quest

 

[greatkraw]

Re: Moutains and Bodies

I've been thinking tonight of a comparison between two created things. Two things created by God that men find extremely beautiful.

The first thing I will speak about is Mountains. Mountains are very beautiful. The trees, the rivers and the valleys. Men travel long distances to visit the Mountains to enjoy a time of tranquility in their presence, or for the challenge of navigating to their peaks.

But when the time comes, men leave the Mountains behind. They don't dream night and day of the Mountains to the point where it disturbs their lives. The Mountains are given a sensible place. They love to visit them, but it doesn't control their lives.

The second thing I will speak about is the female body. The female body is very beautiful. Navigating the curves as well as the warmth of being close with one is very exciting and also can bring great peace.

But when the time of connection for healthy married men ends, they leave the female body behind. They don't dream of it day and night to the point where it disturbs their lives. The female body is given a sensible place. They love to visit, but it doesn't control their lives.

For a single man, they desire to visit the female body just as they do the Mountains. They plan someday to drive out West to see them. They work and save their money and plan the vacation. This is likewise equivalent to marriage. Single men want to have a "vacation" of sorts with a beautiful wife and her enjoy her body and so they work and date and plan the wedding.

There is no difference between the two things. If we have seen a difference then it is because we have imagined something that simply isn't true.

Quest

so intimacy and the female soul are not of interest?

 

[Not_The_Righteous]

Regarding the "power in the objects thing" I must say that this is 100% scriptural. We are dead to sin, sin has no dominion, etc., etc.. As for fleeing sexual immorality and the prescriptive verses for dealing with sin that you offer, I propose that those things are spiritual "milk" which is fit for infants and not "meat" fit for adults. I am looking for meat and potatoes Christianity, not the basics. It seems to me that the whole of Christianity today prefers milk to meat and that's why so many Christians live for years trapped in sin.

Re: Sanctification. What you are talking about is sanctification. Calvinism/Arminianism isn't, at all, what I am talking about. I'm talking about the experience that a believer should have of sin in this life. This is going to take a bit to explain, but I'll try. Might be long, but you seem like the reading type so I'm not afraid of it being a bit wordy.

Your view is that there is this second tier (or at least that is what it sounds like) where Christian perfection (in this life) is what is experienced. That is what Wesley, Finney, Nee essentially taught, while the overwhelming position espoused is "progressive" sanctification which says that perfection only comes when we are no longer still subject to that old man, a nature which still has a susceptibility toward sin.

You think that is all "milk." Ok. You can't ground that, since there's really no expectation given in scripture for this second "pefection" that you describe. And you've misused a verse to try to get there:

Hebrews 6:1-12 ESV Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. 4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things- things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11 And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

The "elementary things" were the basic issues which separated the Old Covenant and the New, which were of particular interest to the audience the author is writing to - especially the reliance upon offering sacrifices again and again as opposed to reliance upon Christ, who is the Great High Priest whose single sacrifice completes what the Old ways never could. The warning passage here also demonstrates what these "dead works" are - going back to those old Jewish ways in the hopes that they might still have power. They don't. This is a huge theme in Hebrews, and the reason it contains so many of these kinds of "warning passages" about going back to ways before Christ and it being powerless.

That passage is, in no way, a support of your case that perfection in living is possible in this life or an experience Christians should aim for and that the whole wealth of prescriptive passages regarding contending with sin in this life is "milk."

1 John 1:6-10 6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The verbage here and the audience John is addressing do not seem to support a perfectionism of the kind you have recently gotten through "new revelation," either. The need for a life of repentance and trust in Christ is always present for those who are in Him. It's not "one time." Unless you have achieved a greater spirituality than either John or Paul.

You mention that we are "Dead to sin." Yes. We are. That reality in Christ is not the issue, but rather the conclusion you draw from it - that we are therefore perfect and that prescriptive passages are meant only for the lowly "first tier" Christians who just don't get it.

Romans 6 sort of explains our predicament, then, with regard to what being "dead to sin" actually means. BTW, it is helpful if you finish Paul's conclusion - we are "dead to sin, alive to God (or righteousness depending on the reference.) This doesn't mean "objects hold no power over me," in the way you seem to be suggesting it does. It means that where once our nature demanded that we work out slavery in sin in unrighteousness and earn death (wages of sin, Rom. 6:23), Christ's death - union with Christ in His death (6:5; 6:8; 6:10 has resulted in a freedom we have, apart from Christ, never had... a freedom to live righteously. (6:12). So, you are partly right - those who are in Christ enjoy a freedom those not in Christ do not have - a freedom to live in righteousness.

But this passive "perfection" of yours does not stand up with a complete reading of what Paul means. he goes on to give prescriptive applications to this reality:
Romans 6:13 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

Romans 6:16 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 6:17-19 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

Conclusion: We are no longer bound, by our nature, to acts of unrighteousness. We are free to live righteously. Therefore - just as you once did the things (active voice) in service to unrightousness, now do the things (active, again) in service to God.

No where does Scripture really suggest the sanctification of the believer is complete this side of death. Nowhere does it say we are therefore sinless in this life and confession/repentance is not a lifelong, ongoing process, and overwhelmingly the actual revelation of God gives instruction on what we who live between two worlds should do.

In contrast, Scripture is replete with prescriptions to flee immorality, present ourselves as living sacrifices, to press on, run the race, train our body in righteousness, and on and on and on. Saying these are merely "milk" for the babies suggest a spirituality and view of sanctification which is beyond the Bible.

That's a dangerous place to be, my friend.

 

[Not_The_Righteous]

But when the time of connection for healthy married men ends, they leave the female body behind. They don't dream of it day and night to the point where it disturbs their lives. The female body is given a sensible place. They love to visit, but it doesn't control their lives.

For a single man, they desire to visit the female body just as they do the Mountains. They plan someday to drive out West to see them. They work and save their money and plan the vacation. This is likewise equivalent to marriage. Single men want to have a "vacation" of sorts with a beautiful wife and her enjoy her body and so they work and date and plan the wedding.

There is no difference between the two things. If we have seen a difference then it is because we have imagined something that simply isn't true.

Quest

Honey, when I look at you all I can see are... mountains?

Dude, Song of Solomon. Genesis 1-2. Men were created not to be alone. Women and mountains are not the same thing. Yearning for intimacy -physical, emotional, spiritual, that culminates in the sexual experience is entirely biblical and good. Sex is good, and it should be desired by a healthy male.

But, like anything good, it has a way God designed it and a misuse of it. Fire belongs in the fireplace, not in the curtains. One brings comfort, light, and life - the other is entirely destructive.

There being a good way to meet desires and a bad way to try and meet desires doesn't mean that fire is the same thing as.... windmills. Or whatever.

And, as a married man - being with my wife isn't a "vacation." That, along with the rest of your analogy, suggests an objectification which (if true, I may just not understand you yet) is very troubling given your admitted history.

Are you married?

 

[QuestionTime]

Re: Moutains and Bodies

so intimacy and the female soul are not of interest?

Why is everything I say being twisted? I am trying to help people here.

To answer your question, please refer to the opening post in this thread.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

But, like anything good, it has a way God designed it and a misuse of it. Fire belongs in the fireplace, not in the curtains. One brings comfort, light, and life - the other is entirely destructive.?

This is exactly what I am saying in my post! Porn is the misuse of the female body!

As men don't misuse the mountains they shouldn't misuse the female body either! I'm showing just how foolish the use of porn is!

Why can't we just set people free from their sin instead of bickering?

Quest

 

[Not_The_Righteous]

Disagreeing with you is not bickering.

To be fair, you've been a little austere, it's not hard to misinterpret. That's the difficulty in using pretty vague analogies.

As men don't misuse the mountains they shouldn't misuse the female body either! I'm showing just how foolish the use of porn is!

Why can't we just set people free from their sin instead of bickering?

Men misuse the mountains all the time because their hearts are idol factories and they enjoy the creation without giving credit to the creator (Romans 1)

We cannot set people free from sin - not sure what you mean if you think "we" can?

 

[QuestionTime]

Disagreeing with you is not bickering.

I think it is bickering, and far worse than that it is discouraging!

I came here to give myself and other people hope, and I'm beginning to regret that I even bothered. I'm ready to ask the mods to close this thread. I don't know if they will but I'm about ready to ask.

Quest

 

[Not_The_Righteous]

If discussing what is and is not said about the Christian life by the Bible (which is the only authoritative revelation we have) is considered "bickering" to you, I don't know what to tell you. The only thing divisive about examining what Scripture says about most subjects (and sanctification is one of them) is when false teaching is exposed by what the text actually says.

What you offer as "hope" isn't really what Scripture offers. You've got some things I wouldn't disagree with in principle, but your application (as you have articulated it, anyway) is off. What hope is that, really? You come offering tales of brain science and of a second tier Christianity that has given you freedom for a "few days" while rebuffing the biblical call into Christian community and accountability - casting your nose down at it as if your new "revelation" has elevated you above the teachings of the Apostles.

You then cast your nose down at the millions of Christians (and the few hundred in my own ministry) who live in a way that reflects what Scripture says about how God has made us to work, and make numerous remarks about what is wrong with "all" the churches that aren't discovering what you think you've discovered. This, while your church experience (from your own account) is not really normnative nor is it grounds to really make the kinds of claims about the Church that you do.

I am truly sorry that you have wounds from your past experience with pastors and churches. I am sorry that efforts to help you with your addiction have not been met with the results you're looking for. I can't speak to all the possible reasons that may be, but what I can do is call you back to Scripture in the hope that you will not seek a quick fix Christianity (of the kind that revivalism teaches), find it fail (which it will) and then be led even further into despair and frustration.

Now that we have our necessarily fickle feelings out of the way - there is no quick fix. There is no "light switch" sanctification. Being conformed to the image of Christ is a lifelong, sometimes difficult process which actually requires that sometimes you suffer and struggle with old desires. Despite this, we have every reason to hope because "He who calls you is faithful, he will do it (1 Thess 5:24), He who began a good work wll surely complete it (Phil 1:6) and that even as we stumble along the way this is fundamentally true:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—
for he cannot deny himself.

We were never promised it would be easy. Ease is not the hope we should be looking for or bringing to others. We were, however, promised that God would be faithful and that we would not be left out in the rain alone. We were promised that He would be our strength when we had none, that He would be our comfort in dark times. We were promised that He never calls us somewhere His grace does not cover in ways we can percieve. Our hope is in our God - not in some mental switch or higher knowledge which begins seeing the material world as "without power" like the old Gnostics did.

 

[QuestionTime]

If discussing what is and is not said about the Christian life by the Bible (which is the only authoritative revelation we have) is considered "bickering" to you, I don't know what to tell you. The only thing divisive about examining what Scripture says about most subjects (and sanctification is one of them) is when false teaching is exposed by what the text actually says.

Sanctification in Wesley's interpretation and experience is false teaching to you, but not to others. Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits. The fruit of the Wesley's and of the Salvationist's work alone - in quantity of souls - is greater than the work of any of the saints you mentioned above combined. That is all anyone needs to hear to be convinced about which interpretation is correct.

It's funny too that Calvinism - and it's interpretation of sanctification - is the prevalent belief of the final lukewarm church age. We live in a society where Christianity is powerless and Calvinism rules. We haven't had any serious hope of revival since Keith Green died. Oh yeah, he experienced sanctification while reading Charles Finney.

What you offer as "hope" isn't really what Scripture offers. You've got some things I wouldn't disagree with in principle, but your application (as you have articulated it, anyway) is off. What hope is that, really? You come offering tales of brain science and of a second tier Christianity that has given you freedom for a "few days" while rebuffing the biblical call into Christian community and accountability - casting your nose down at it as if your new "revelation" has elevated you above the teachings of the Apostles.

The hope is that for the first time in my life I know that I am free, because for the first time in my life I know why I was a slave. That's the hope. Before all I knew is that I had to avoid lust like the plague and be accountable. That didn't help. Telling myself I was dead to sin and alive to Christ didn't help.

The tales of brain science are 100% Biblical. The brain science is all about patterns of behavior - which, as I stated before - is exactly what the Bible is talking about when it tells us to renew our minds.

You then cast your nose down at the millions of Christians (and the few hundred in my own ministry) who live in a way that reflects what Scripture says about how God has made us to work, and make numerous remarks about what is wrong with "all" the churches that aren't discovering what you think you've discovered. This, while your church experience (from your own account) is not really normnative nor is it grounds to really make the kinds of claims about the Church that you do.

I'm very happy that you have helped a great number of people and I do hope you continue helping. What I am saying though is that what works for you hasn't worked for me in 18 years. Have you ever heard the definition of insanity? "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Also, I am ever so sorry that what existed in my church is not normal in other churches, because if it was we'd have a huge revival going on right now. I know too that what was normal in my church was also normal in Keith Green's ministry.

I am truly sorry that you have wounds from your past experience with pastors and churches. I am sorry that efforts to help you with your addiction have not been met with the results you're looking for. I can't speak to all the possible reasons that may be, but what I can do is call you back to Scripture in the hope that you will not seek a quick fix Christianity (of the kind that revivalism teaches), find it fail (which it will) and then be led even further into despair and frustration.

That was actually a very nice paragraph. Thank-you.

Now that we have our necessarily fickle feelings out of the way - there is no quick fix. There is no "light switch" sanctification. Being conformed to the image of Christ is a lifelong, sometimes difficult process which actually requires that sometimes you suffer and struggle with old desires. Despite this, we have every reason to hope because "He who calls you is faithful, he will do it (1 Thess 5:24), He who began a good work wll surely complete it (Phil 1:6) and that even as we stumble along the way this is fundamentally true:

I never claimed to have experienced entire sanctification, I'm just saying that I learned the truth about sexual sin and now have become free from sexual sin by that truth.

Quest

 

[Not_The_Righteous]

Sanctification in Wesley's interpretation and experience is false teaching to you, but not to others. Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits. The fruit of the Wesley's and of the Salvationist's work alone - in quantity of souls - is greater than the work of any of the saints you mentioned above combined. That is all anyone needs to hear to be convinced about which interpretation is correct.

It's funny too that Calvinism - and it's interpretation of sanctification - is the prevalent belief of the final lukewarm church age. We live in a society where Christianity is powerless and Calvinism rules. We haven't had any serious hope of revival since Keith Green died. Oh yeah, he experienced sanctification while reading Charles Finney

I'm not really sure why Calvinism keeps being drawn into this; we could talk about Baxter, Aquinas or maybe Augustine or someone else? Helwys? Progressive sanctification is held by a number of non-Calvinists living, dead. The majority of the discussion here, and the challenges I've given your perspective, have come from Scripture - not from anywhere else.

I think there's a lot that Wesley said which is fine, but what you're doing here (thus far) creeps into the realm of false teaching. I find God using The Lord of the Rings and certain musical artists to do work in me on occassion, but I'm not about to canonize them and make them the standard. Especially if what is being said suddenly doesn't hold up when the light of Scripture is shone on it.

The criticism your view on sanctification (since that's probably the genesis of our disagreement here) isn't me just flubbing an ungrounded opinion. It's based upon what you're doing and how it cuts against what Scripture teaches. You've painted a picture now where I must believe God's revelation concerning the process, or yours. I choose it. This perception is not helped by the fact that you arrive here, post a thread wanting "discussion/debate" and when you get it you resort to becoming emotional and defensive rather than answering any of the substance driven challenges you recieve. I mean, have you yet engaged any point of mine on its substance or did you immediately resort to ad hominem (against people in this thread, other christians, the church, now calvinism(? Still not getting the aggro there) in order to satisfy your need for rhetorical quid pro quo?

The whole "power in the objects" thing sounds almost like the kind of argument one might have gotten from "the problem is the material" which is why 1 John is so appropriate and really flies in the face of what you've tried to teach (and the kind of perfectionism Finney preached) here thus far. Hey, it's ok, I get that he's your hero but heroes can have both good and bad elements in their teaching. I love - love - C.S. Lewis but he's pretty goofy when it comes to certain subjects.

The hope is that for the first time in my life I know that I am free, because for the first time in my life I know why I was a slave. That's the hope. Before all I knew is that I had to avoid lust like the plague and be accountable. That didn't help. Telling myself I was dead to sin and alive to Christ didn't help.

The tales of brain science are 100% Biblical. The brain science is all about patterns of behavior - which, as I stated before - is exactly what the Bible is talking about when it tells us to renew our minds.

I am glad for your few days of respite. I am concerned for the foundation you're trusting in though. I've seen it before - again and again and again... and it has yet to lead to true, lifelong perseverance. Eventually the "new" feeling wears off and you're back to being someone who still has desires and a nature to sin. Oh, maybe the porn addiction (and usually not, sadly) is gone but it reappears in some other way.

You have to admit that equating "be transformed by the renewing (passive) of your mind" as a result of living in submission to God (Rom. 12) to "new findings" in a brain science which comes with a pricetag of $300 is a bit tenuous.

Also, I am ever so sorry that what existed in my church is not normal in other churches, because if it was we'd have a huge revival going on right now. I know too that what was normal in my church was also normal in Keith Green's ministry.

I said "normnative." House church in a world-wide organization which apparently lacked the integrity of leadership and accountability to prevent it from having the issues you describe. That's not the typical experience encountered by believers now or historically. Sadly, I can't say it surprises me given how you've described the organization and my own experience with groups of like faith and practice.

And once again, you expose the bitterness you hold for people you're all too happy to assume the motives of. You'll get no great defense of consumeristic churches from me, but had it ever occurred to you that maybe a whole lot of people in those churches feel the way you did? Maybe that is why they were less able to strike up a conversation with you, etc? Did it occur to you that church is a place of service and not a place to be serviced?

To be perfectly honest, with the attitude toward others in the church that you've described, your contempt for the "modern church" without any real perspective on the matter, and the treatment of Scripture (and of the topic of Sanctification - trying to turn it into a debate on Calvinism?) here I am not terribly surprised that true freedom, refreshing accountability, and longstanding recovery has eluded you.

(Re: no revival - seriously? - no revival since Keith Greene? - I guess that whole Passion thing in the late 90's and early 2000's was jusy kind of a blip and what is going on in Central asia now is totally lackluster in your eyes) I think that it is very likely that your bitterness has severely inhibited your ability to have perspective.

Let me end by just saying this: You appear to trust your experience far, far too easily. Brother, a few days of feeling free is not cause to toss what I have shown you, from Scripture, out the window because "it never worked for me." There are so many reasons that may be the case... Is Scripture the highest authority for you, or not?

Candeo may be a helpful tool - and that's fine if it is - but you've said a number of things in this thread which are cause for great concern from a doctrinal point of view. Don't put your hope in a light-switch sanctification, because sanctification is NOT (no matter what Keith Greene or Finney said) an, "experience." It's lifelong. It's not always easy. It requires the continual grace of the Cross because Sin is no shallow matter and the Fall still affects us in this life.

 

[sunshine_debbie]

Wow, have no idea what I walked into but, I meant no disrespect. Also, I love Keith Green, I have all his music. He was so honest and so raw in his emotional, pure committment to God.

Debbie

 

[QuestionTime]

Wow, have no idea what I walked into but, I meant no disrespect. Also, I love Keith Green, I have all his music. He was so honest and so raw in his emotional, pure committment to God.

Debbie

I love to have a positive post in this thread at least once a week so, thank-you Debbie! Your post is indeed a ray of sunshine!

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

I am glad for your few days of respite.

How can you dare to walk up to God's children and tell them they aren't free? You are calling God a liar, you are calling me a liar, and you are attempting to discourage me. What are you profiting from this?

This is why so many people out there aren't free, it's because other people clearly don't want for them to be.

Quest