Prenuptial agreement

[just_monicat]

One wonders why his wife used her free will to sign such a document agreeing to such terms.

Anyways, I do think there's a point to be made about the relatively common problem of women marrying for money and security and then ending all sexual relations shortly after marrying.

I'm not sure how the perfectly healthy women who use their sexuality to entice men into marrying them, to get at assets they never earned, and then cut off all sexual relations afterwards justify their atrocious behavior.

If they are Christians, this violates scripture on many levels.

Because the men who marry women primarily because of their (sexuality/attractiveness/how well they match the furniture/etc.) DEFINITELY have their priorities straight. [imagine a sarcasm emoticon right here]

Let's just agree that if whatever sexual or material gain your spouse can give to you is the reason you are getting married, then you are not entering into a holy union.

yeah, if there's one thing i've seen too much of, it's men and women seeking to "complete themselves" or attempt to correct something missing in themselves or their life by trying to "shortcut" or "bandaid" a solution. no man (or woman) will overcome your personal shortcomings.

believe me, i really do believe that both genders are pretty guilty of seeking marital benefits for reasons that are less than noble--youth, status, financial security, validation, and the list goes on...

and i feel sorry for anyone who thinks a legally binding document can assure any measure of fulfillment. you actually have to put the work in, not just wave a piece of paper.

you can attempt to litigate the "the cookie jar". but at the end of the day, i suspect one will only be left cookie crumbs in their bed.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

It was a question not a statement. It was not an accusation. Actually it would be better to reframe it as a divergent question as they was my intent.

But your own statement begs another question. Where do you get the idea that it's immoral for a man to expect sex out of a marriage union with a woman?

Because the Word of God I'm reading says it's NORMAL and HEALTHY for a man to both expect and engage in sex with his wife.

Also, how does a man expecting sex from a marriage union equate to a woman fraudulently pretending like she's going to have sex with a man in a marriage, marrying him for his money, and then denying her husband sex?

I'm not making the correlation.

That seems a gross misinterpretation of her response. I saw no evidence arguing for sexless marriages. She simply stated that guy marrying for sex is as bad as women marrying for money, and if either of those are your reason for getting married then it probably isnt a union like the one God has intended.

 

[Fenner]

I married for the Ford Festiva and the vast knowledge of 100 different ways of cooking Hamburger helper, that he had. He married me cause I'm a prime piece of real estate.

 

[Misty77]

It was a question not a statement. It was not an accusation. Actually it would be better to reframe it as a divergent question as they was my intent.

But your own statement begs another question. Where do you get the idea that it's immoral for a man to expect sex out of a marriage union with a woman?

Because the Word of God I'm reading says it's NORMAL and HEALTHY for a man to both expect and engage in sex with his wife.

Also, how does a man expecting sex from a marriage union equate to a woman fraudulently pretending like she's going to have sex with a man in a marriage, marrying him for his money, and then denying her husband sex?

I'm not making the correlation.

Marriage is the joining of two human beings to becoming one unit. You will complement each other spiritually,support each other emotionally, enjoy each other sexually, provide for each other financially, etc. Expecting that sex will be included as a part of marriage is normal and healthy. But marrying PRIMARILY for sexual attraction or monetary gain—and likely ignoring the other aspects—cheapens what should be a holy union and makes it essentially a long-term contract of prostitution. EITHER spouse with that intention is in the wrong.

 

[Nautilus]

But your own statement begs another question. Where do you get the idea that it's immoral for a man to expect sex out of a marriage union with a woman?

Expecting sex in a marriage =/= Marrying for sex. Marrying for sex means you have some tested concept of the 'no pre-marital sex' concept and are marrying simply to 'get yours'. There is no real consideration for the life-long bond of marriage. You can see these posts all the time in the singles forum...'Im like 25 years old and never had sex, I really need to get married.' Its mostly guys desperate to rush into commitments simply for a chance of sexual release. Expecting sex in a marriage is for the most part healthy. Like when I get married, Im positive my wife and I will engage in various sexual activites. But it's not the main reason I'll get married, nor is it the main thing I'm expecting from the marriage. It's simply a nice perk of the situation.

Both of the proposed situations were men or women marrying purely for selfish reasons. Whether youre getting married FOR money or FOR sex, it's mostly just a sign you aren't ready for marriage.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Great post and I agree with it. However, for a 1:1 correlation to exist with the example of the woman marrying and then denying her husband sex (a common problem) the man would have to marry the woman and NOT give her any money whatsoever no matter how badly she needed or wanted it.

That's a true correlation. So healthy women who deny their husbands sex in their marriage are as bad as men who refuse to take care of their wives when they need to be taken care of.

Marriage is the joining of two human beings to becoming one unit. You will complement each other spiritually,support each other emotionally, enjoy each other sexually, provide for each other financially, etc. Expecting that sex will be included as a part of marriage is normal and healthy. But marrying PRIMARILY for sexual attraction or monetary gain—and likely ignoring the other aspects—cheapens what should be a holy union and makes it essentially a long-term contract of prostitution. EITHER spouse with that intention is in the wrong.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

What I observe around me in society is a lot of young men having sex with women outside of marriage and telling me they are never going to get married. Increasingly, they also tell me they are not going to have children either.

They say it's too much liability and trouble to get married anymore and they don't want to pay for children.

As a Christian I try to explain to them what marriage really is from God's viewpoint and how important marriage is for them personally on a spiritual level, how important it is for the stable rearing of children, and society as a whole even when society no longer acknowledges its importance but they just say, "No way. It's a BIG problem if you do and not a problem if you don't."

They say there's no real incentive anymore for them just a lot of liability that they, as one young man told me, "don't need, don't want, and can't really afford."

That's where we're at culturally to a large degree in this country and it's getting worse by the year.

Expecting sex in a marriage =/= Marrying for sex. Marrying for sex means you have some tested concept of the 'no pre-marital sex' concept and are marrying simply to 'get yours'. There is no real consideration for the life-long bond of marriage. You can see these posts all the time in the singles forum...'Im like 25 years old and never had sex, I really need to get married.' Its mostly guys desperate to rush into commitments simply for a chance of sexual release. Expecting sex in a marriage is for the most part healthy. Like when I get married, Im positive my wife and I will engage in various sexual activites. But it's not the main reason I'll get married, nor is it the main thing I'm expecting from the marriage. It's simply a nice perk of the situation.

Both of the proposed situations were men or women marrying purely for selfish reasons. Whether youre getting married FOR money or FOR sex, it's mostly just a sign you aren't ready for marriage.

 

[Nautilus]

That may very well be true. I personally am unsure about having children in a marriage but it hasn't stopped me from wanting to find the one person I mesh with so well tthat we want to celebrate such a union in God's way by getting married.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

And then you read something like this: Man who lost his legs in Boston bombing is engaged - seattlepi.com

Why if a legless man can get married and have children all things are possible. But let's see if it ends in a nasty divorce in five years.

 

[DuchessAimee]

Seriously? You actually know the answer to that question?

I'm awesome. That's how I know.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Prenups are a way of setting forth mutually agreed upon expectations into a legal instrument and what happens if those expectations are not met. Obviously, a prenup cannot force anyone to actually meet the expectations they agreed upon. But they certainly can roadmap the legalities of what happens when they don't.

i feel sorry for anyone who thinks a legally binding document can assure any measure of fulfillment. you actually have to put the work in, not just wave a piece of paper.

you can attempt to litigate the "the cookie jar". but at the end of the day, i suspect one will only be left cookie crumbs in their bed.

 

[Misty77]

Great post and I agree with it. However, for a 1:1 correlation to exist with the example of the woman marrying and then denying her husband sex (a common problem) the man would have to marry the woman and NOT give her any money whatsoever no matter how badly she needed or wanted it.

That's a true correlation. So healthy women who deny their husbands sex in their marriage are as bad as men who refuse to take care of their wives when they need to be taken care of.

You are missing the point entirely. My purpose was not to make direct correlation but to point out marrying PRIMARILY (not as an added bonus) of selfish gain or fulfilled lust is wrong.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Well, they aren't much marrying anymore so both the correlation and the point are becoming increasingly mute for Americans.

"A report released recently by Bowling Green State University's National Center for Marriage and Family Research revealed that the U.S. marriage rate is currently at 31.1, that means there are 31 marriages per 1,000 unmarried women. However, in 1920, the national marriage rate was 92.3."

Marriage rate in US at the lowest

^ That's a new record low by the way.

Also note that:

"The U.S. fertility rate has dropped from year-to-year for each of the last five years. In 2007, it was 69.3. In 2008, it was 68.1. In 2009, it was 66.2. In 2010, it was 64.1. In 2011, it was 63.2. And, in 2012, it was 63.0. Since 1960, the fertility rate in the United States has declined 46.6 percent. In that year, 118 babies were born per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44.

And for the second year in a row, 40.7 percent of the babies born in the United States were born to unmarried mothers. The percentage of American babies born to unmarried mothers has more than doubled since 1980. That year, only 18.4 percent of the babies born in the United States were born to unmarried mothers."

CDC: U.S. Fertility Rate Hits Record Low for 2nd Straight Year; 40.7% of Babies Born to Unmarried Women | CNS News

And we're talking about prenups.

Hey I know, maybe passing more feminist designed laws to further disempower males who marry and punish them worse in the event of a divorce along with another decade of humiliating married males on every mainstream media channel in existence and every college campus in the nation will fix this problem... lol.

Ya think?

You are missing the point entirely. My purpose was not to make direct correlation but to point out marrying PRIMARILY (not as an added bonus) of selfish gain or fulfilled lust is wrong.

 

[Misty77]

Well, they aren't much marrying anymore so both the correlation and the point are becoming increasingly mute for Americans.

"A report released recently by Bowling Green State University's National Center for Marriage and Family Research revealed that the U.S. marriage rate is currently at 31.1, that means there are 31 marriages per 1,000 unmarried women. However, in 1920, the national marriage rate was 92.3."

Marriage rate in US at the lowest

^ That's a new record low by the way.

Also note that:

"The U.S. fertility rate has dropped from year-to-year for each of the last five years. In 2007, it was 69.3. In 2008, it was 68.1. In 2009, it was 66.2. In 2010, it was 64.1. In 2011, it was 63.2. And, in 2012, it was 63.0. Since 1960, the fertility rate in the United States has declined 46.6 percent. In that year, 118 babies were born per 1,000 women aged 15 to 44.

And for the second year in a row, 40.7 percent of the babies born in the United States were born to unmarried mothers. The percentage of American babies born to unmarried mothers has more than doubled since 1980. That year, only 18.4 percent of the babies born in the United States were born to unmarried mothers."

CDC: U.S. Fertility Rate Hits Record Low for 2nd Straight Year; 40.7% of Babies Born to Unmarried Women | CNS News

And we're talking about prenups.

Hey I know, maybe passing more feminist designed laws to further disempower males who marry and punish them worse in the event of a divorce along with another decade of humiliating married males on every mainstream media channel in existence and every college campus in the nation will fix this problem... lol.

Ya think?

The fact that you are begging the question makes futher discourse with you to be a *moot* point.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Lol. I'm just a messenger.

The fact that you are begging the question makes futher discourse with you to be a *moot* point.

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Guys, GUYS! I thought we were having cookies?

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

We are having cookies just increasingly apart from U.S. women in a marriage relationship is all.

Maybe some day U.S. women will figure out that the feminist utopia they've created is very painful and expensive for most men who no longer enter into what they view as one young man called the "marriage racket."

Hey but I'm still optimistic. There's always the Ukraine or the Philippines. Plenty of nice Christian women in both places and best of all they don't speak English nor understand the ways of Western feminism.

You can marry a genuine Christian from either of those two places, have her sign the strongest of prenups, and bring her back to the states. The divorce rate for American men who marry foreign women is a fraction of the U.S. divorce rate at approximately 20% per the U.S. Census Bureau.

My Uncle did this after his wife returned to her partying ways and abandoned him for a biker. He was lucky she didn't want the kids so didn't have to pay neither alimony or child support after the court divided up their stuff in half.

He flew to Russia and came back with a perfect blonde supermodel ten in the looks department. She turned out to be a fine homemaker and they have lived happily for twenty years.

A young man told me, "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" I answered, "not all cows are equal."

Guys, GUYS! I thought we were having cookies?

 

[seoulsearch]

Hey but I'm still optimistic. There's always the Ukraine or the Philippines. Plenty of nice Christian women in both places and best of all they don't speak English nor understand the ways of Western feminism.

You can marry a genuine Christian from either of those two places, have her sign the strongest of prenups, and bring her back to the states. The divorce rate for American men who marry foreign women is a fraction of the U.S. divorce rate at approximately 20% per the U.S. Census Bureau.

My Uncle did this after his wife returned to her partying ways and abandoned him for a biker. He was lucky she didn't want the kids so didn't have to pay neither alimony or child support after the court divided up their stuff in half.

He flew to Russia and came back with a perfect blonde supermodel ten in the looks department. She turned out to be a fine homemaker and they have lived happily for twenty years.

A young man told me, "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" I answered, "not all cows are equal."

Hey Age ,

Just had to add another side of the coin. I'm sorry this is slightly off-topic but I've known many American men who have a fantasy of marrying a perfect, Christian, foreign wife--usually several decades younger.

Hey, if that's what God has in their future, go for it. But, one might also want to know what he could be facing. For any man dreaming of marrying a foreign "supermodel" type who obeys his every whim (not that it can't happen), just a few tips, as it's happened a few times to people in my life. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR EVERYONE, OF COURSE, but there are some truths behind the stereotypes.

1. For some women in foreign countries, snagging an American or European man is a "brass ring" meal ticket, and you may be expected to provide for not only her, but her entire family. This may include having some of her relatives come from overseas to live with you--permanently--or you may be expected to live with her family. You may also be expected to send money home to her family, especially if she has younger siblings and aging parents. Foreign culture will expect you to help her take care of her family (which, ironically, is why American men say they want foreign women--their family values--so be prepared to take care of her family as well as your own and any children you have with her.) I was once married into a Filipino family and while THEY were NOT like this, they gave me a lot of insight into people who are. It's very common in the Philippines. I don't know if this statistic still holds but I'd been told that $20,000 is like a million dollars to someone there, making foreign men especially appealing "targets" as husband material.

I AM NOT TRYING TO INSULT ANY OF OUR FILIPINO BROTHERS AND SISTERS OUT THERE AT ALL. AS I STATED, NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE THIS. But my ex-husband was from a Filipino family and would be the first to say, "I would only be offended if there wasn't a lot of truth behind it."

2. Please don't expect to marry a foreign woman for her "good family values" without allowing her to to be able to visit her family. Now, you may get a girl who comes here and never wants to be around her family again... But if the very reason you say you want to marry her is because of how much she values family, expect to be able to provide ways for her to have time with her family, either by helping her family come visit here (in the USA), or by allowing her to go to them for several weeks or months at a time (even if you can't go with her because of work, etc.), and yes, allow her to take your children with you.

In many ways, marriages such as this require even MORE trust that what you'd expect with a "typical" "American" marriage because there will most likely be a lot of foreign travel involved--with or without you.

It's different for everyone, I know. But in the ones I've seen (and in the two cases that are very close to me) the women are wonderful, Christian, educated, hard-working, and not at all out to take advantage of anyone. BUT, it's a terrible stress for them to be away from their families so they go and visit their home countries for a few weeks or months each year, taking the children with them. Keep in mind, many countries emphasize the mother's family helping with the children even more than here so many women will feel at a loss that they don't have their family here to help with the kids. In the families I know personally, the husbands usually can't go because of work obligations, etc., but they are fully supportive.

Just something to think about if you're considering "the dream of marrying foreign", as it seems many American men (older, especially) seem to have.

And just to keep this on topic, none of the wives mentioned whom I know signed pre-nups that I know of.

 

[wisebeardman]

What I observe around me in society is a lot of young men having sex with women outside of marriage and telling me they are never going to get married. Increasingly, they also tell me they are not going to have children either.

They say it's too much liability and trouble to get married anymore and they don't want to pay for children.

As a Christian I try to explain to them what marriage really is from God's viewpoint and how important marriage is for them personally on a spiritual level, how important it is for the stable rearing of children, and society as a whole even when society no longer acknowledges its importance but they just say, "No way. It's a BIG problem if you do and not a problem if you don't."

They say there's no real incentive anymore for them just a lot of liability that they, as one young man told me, "don't need, don't want, and can't really afford."

That's where we're at culturally to a large degree in this country and it's getting worse by the year.

I can see why some guys would be like this. we ALL want to protect ourself and to many men just screwing then dumping is safer then getting involved (I don't agree with it, but when you see the bad outcomes you can see where many will chose this path) I have seen women convince guys they are the best thing ever convince the guy to marry them. then bing no sex and oh she is leaving and taking your stuff. and I have seen women get prego by a guy just to use the kid as a free cash cow. oh yeah I must add if the guy actually does want something to do with the kid, good luck cause the woman will do everything to stop it.

who wants to be conned into that garbage? I sure don't. I worked very hard and sometimes went weeks with little to no food just to have something. last thing I want is someone taking it away. also I sure don't want to create something that will just be used as a weapon against me.

so with that, even if some female actually wanted something to do with me, chances are I would pass. if I didn't pass, you can bet 100% she is ether going to sign the prenup or I walk.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

So did my friend. He went to the Philippines on a missionary trip and brought back a wife a number of years ago. They are happily married and she gave him a beautiful Amerasian daughter. In addition to being a good husband and father, he sends some money back every month to her family. They have a vested monetary interest to see that he stays happily married to her daughter.

Something I noticed in both cases was the lack of "divorce as an option" these women have in their mentality and I also noticed how much influence their families put on them to make the marriage work. Not like U.S. families that take the woman's side and urge her to no-fault divorce over even the mundane.

I was at a Mariners Church single's beach event a number of years ago and ran across two sisters in their mid twenties that were both divorced already. I was like, "You're too young to get divorced." One told me, "true but you should see the car I drive."

I have to admit, it was a nice car.

Neither my Uncle nor my friend have wives that have ever thought like that. They are fully committed to their family above all else and that marriage commitment value is embedded in the very cultures they were raised in. It's the type of strong cultural internalization with respect to marriage that once existed in the U.S. back in the 1950s.

For example, there is no divorce rate in the country of the Philippines for the simple fact that divorce is illegal in that country.

Admittedly, the Ukraine divorce rate is very high in the Ukraine but it is primarily a problem of male abandonment of women in the Ukraine and the high rate of male crime, alcoholism, and addiction amongst Ukrainian men which statistically does not translate to Ukrainian women who marry foreign men as that divorce rate is approximately only 20%.

So take your pick fellas:

Filipina, divorce statistic is close to zero.
Q: Marry?
A: Yes!

Ukraine, divorce statistic is around 20% if you bring them home.
Q: Marry?
A: Yes but be sure to use a strong prenup:

U.S. feminist, astronomical divorce rate and they know the greasiest divorce lawyers.
Q: Marry?
A: Only marry if you're a masochist that enjoys severe pain, poverty, and humiliation. Otherwise, avoid like the bubonic plague.

Lolol...