Psychics, magicians, fortune tellers, astrologers and faith healers

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Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,540
2,250
113
#41
No, Agnostic is a compromise word that atheist that are afraid use.
Theist = A perswon who believes God exists..

Agnostic = A person who does not know if God exists or not..

Atheist = A person who believes God does not exist..
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,585
1,549
113
Germany
#42
I just want to bring this back to the subject. Occult is something I've also delved into when I was 17 and everything I saw was based on my mind set at the time, I believed that there was some kind of power to be gained by spells, burning candles and reading "forbidden knowledge books" one I remember that I was fascinated was The Book of the law written by Alester Crowley. I still remember the feeling of reading certain passages about spirituality and forces beyond with ow e and wonder, while being afraid to let anyone else discover the book that I kept under the bed. We don't have to argue about what we experienced, because we both know what those feelings are like, real and as real as the ground that we stand on, yet this is not a good reason to accept it as something that indeed proves the spiritual realm. Because feeling and emotions are just based on the information that we have received up to that point in our lives and our responses are based on subconscious triggers in the brain. Why do some people have Arachnophobia, its not a decision they make its a response that they have when they see a spider based on the way their brain is wired.

My point is experience and our interpretation of something does not make it objective. Just as one can claim to have experienced the spiritual another in the same situation can claim having no experience, which again shows how subjective emotional and spiritual experiences are.

Nothing about the spiritual has been proven:
Psychic fail compilation 1 , Psychic fail compilation 2 , Psychic fail compilation 3
These are some of the examples of where claimed psychic ability wielders fail to objectively demonstrate that the power actually exists.
There are tens of thousands more examples like this both recorded and not recorded, but zero ones that prove the existence of such abilities.

Asking if I'm a christian is Irrelevant to the topic since we are trying to asses the evidence for or against the supernatural, we can believe it, but it won't make it true and Truth is what I am after here.
How do you want something to be proven scientifically when its not something that is on a physical base.
There are miracle healings but even there science fails to explain why. Thats why its supernatural.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,963
6,212
113
#43
Nothing about the spiritual has been proven:
Psychic fail compilation 1 , Psychic fail compilation 2 , Psychic fail compilation 3
These are some of the examples of where claimed psychic ability wielders fail to objectively demonstrate that the power actually exists.
The fact that attempts at psychic phenomena fail is not, in itself, "Nothing about the spiritual has been proven". That's a logical fallacy.

Asking if I'm a christian is Irrelevant to the topic since we are trying to asses the evidence for or against the supernatural, we can believe it, but it won't make it true and Truth is what I am after here.
While it may not be your concern, it is our greatest concern. It profits you nothing if you have all the knowledge in the world, and you aren't saved by faith in Jesus Christ. So, it is relevant to the topic. :)
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#44
Theist = A perswon who believes God exists..

Agnostic = A person who does not know if God exists or not..

Atheist = A person who believes God does not exist..
Atheism is the lack of belief in gods; the absence of belief in gods; disbelief in gods; or not believing in gods.
The most precise definition may be that an atheist is anyone who does not affirm the proposition "at least one god exists." This is not a proposition made by atheists. Being an atheist requires nothing active or even conscious on the part of the atheist. All that is required is not "affirming" a proposition made by others.

I personally don't believe there is a God, but I am open to the possibility that something out there that I don't know about yet exists.
As an athiest I don't believe, because I am not convinced , but I again say that the possibility of a God is something I am more then willing to accept if it becomes self-evident.

An agnostic atheist doesn't believe in any gods while an agnostic theist believes in the existence of at least one god. However, both do not make the claim to have the knowledge to back up this belief. Fundamentally, there is still some question and that is why they're agnostic.
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#45
How do you want something to be proven scientifically when its not something that is on a physical base.
There are miracle healings but even there science fails to explain why. Thats why its supernatural.

"There are miracle healings but even there science fails to explain why. Thats why its supernatural. "
Can you show me an instance where a healing occurred. My main question to people like yourself is why are there no amputees getting healed, if you lose your arm, leg or even a finger, the fact is they are lost forever no matter who prays for the person to be healed.
You can point to internal diseases and ailments where people after a certain amount of time get better, but what is there to say they would not have if you didn't pray for them at all. In fact there a study of more than 1,800 patients who underwent heart bypass surgery had failed to show that prayers specially organised for their recovery had any impact at all.

So please if you make a claim at least back it up, by some evidence.
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#46
The fact that attempts at psychic phenomena fail is not, in itself, "Nothing about the spiritual has been proven". That's a logical fallacy.


While it may not be your concern, it is our greatest concern. It profits you nothing if you have all the knowledge in the world, and you aren't saved by faith in Jesus Christ. So, it is relevant to the topic. :)
Well, I appreciate your concern, but these are questions that are keeping me in state of doubt regarding your God and until I have them answered I probably won't lean towards believing in your God, also belief is not a decision one can make just when they wish.
If I asked you to believe sincerely that Zues, Santa, or elves exist would you be able to do it ? I do not think so... same story with me.
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#47
There is a very good possibility that spirit beings cannot be captured on film or recorded digitally. Just as no one can see your soul and spirit, yet they are there and do exist.
How do you know there is a Soul ?
You say yet they are there and do exist, what is your line of reasoning to back your claim ?

I honestly would just say, I don't think I have a soul, but I am open to the possibility.
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#48
It's not the level of evidence that you seem to be desiring by the type of evidence ( scientific evidence/ non Biblical evidence ) As in evidence outside the message of God..

So i am curious what was one of the questions no one could answer?

Also how can you know irrefutably that ""it was a lie"" what was the lie?
Please read what I mentioned across this entire thread.

The main questions is: Where is the proof that supernatural events occur and on What basis do we believe that they exist ?
Proof for miracles, healings, any of the events described in the bible as supernatural happening now days.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,963
6,212
113
#49
Well, I appreciate your concern, but these are questions that are keeping me in state of doubt regarding your God and until I have them answered I probably won't lean towards believing in your God, also belief is not a decision one can make just when they wish.
If I asked you to believe sincerely that Zues, Santa, or elves exist would you be able to do it ? I do not think so... same story with me.
Fair enough. I will ask in return that you don't look for proof of God's existence among the fraudsters and fakes. God is real, and He doesn't perform parlour tricks for the amusement of men. :)
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,585
1,549
113
Germany
#50
I just want to bring this back to the subject. Occult is something I've also delved into when I was 17 and everything I saw was based on my mind set at the time, I believed that there was some kind of power to be gained by spells, burning candles and reading "forbidden knowledge books" one I remember that I was fascinated was The Book of the law written by Alester Crowley. I still remember the feeling of reading certain passages about spirituality and forces beyond with ow e and wonder, while being afraid to let anyone else discover the book that I kept under the bed. We don't have to argue about what we experienced, because we both know what those feelings are like, real and as real as the ground that we stand on, yet this is not a good reason to accept it as something that indeed proves the spiritual realm. Because feeling and emotions are just based on the information that we have received up to that point in our lives and our responses are based on subconscious triggers in the brain. Why do some people have Arachnophobia, its not a decision they make its a response that they have when they see a spider based on the way their brain is wired.

My point is experience and our interpretation of something does not make it objective. Just as one can claim to have experienced the spiritual another in the same situation can claim having no experience, which again shows how subjective emotional and spiritual experiences are.

Nothing about the spiritual has been proven:
Psychic fail compilation 1 , Psychic fail compilation 2 , Psychic fail compilation 3
These are some of the examples of where claimed psychic ability wielders fail to objectively demonstrate that the power actually exists.
There are tens of thousands more examples like this both recorded and not recorded, but zero ones that prove the existence of such abilities.

Asking if I'm a christian is Irrelevant to the topic since we are trying to asses the evidence for or against the supernatural, we can believe it, but it won't make it true and Truth is what I am after here.
How do you want something to be proven scientifically when its not something that is on a physical base.
There are miracle healings but even there science fails to explain why. Thats why its supernatural.
"There are miracle healings but even there science fails to explain why. Thats why its supernatural. "
Can you show me an instance where a healing occurred. My main question to people like yourself is why are there no amputees getting healed, if you lose your arm, leg or even a finger, the fact is they are lost forever no matter who prays for the person to be healed.
You can point to internal diseases and ailments where people after a certain amount of time get better, but what is there to say they would not have if you didn't pray for them at all. In fact there a study of more than 1,800 patients who underwent heart bypass surgery had failed to show that prayers specially organised for their recovery had any impact at all.

So please if you make a claim at least back it up, by some evidence.
I have evidence all around me.
My mothers leg was paralyzed and doctors told her she wont ever walk again nor have children.
Well after being prayed for and anointed by elders, a few days later she walked again, has been walking ever since and has 2 children. She still has the xrays of her spine and newer ones. Doctors are baffled

A friend of mine had stage 4 stomache cancer andwas told she was going to die.
One day she woke up in the hospital bed healed and is cancer free until today and everyone from the clinic avoids her for it.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,540
2,250
113
#51
Please read what I mentioned across this entire thread.

The main questions is: Where is the proof that supernatural events occur and on What basis do we believe that they exist ?
Proof for miracles, healings, any of the events described in the bible as supernatural happening now days.
Well proof exists for me because i have had dreams of the future that have come perfectly true and i have personally taken part in healing two people by laying my hands upon them.. They where healed in a moment right in front of my eyes..

But i did state in my first reply to you in this thread the main reason i believe God withholds proofs from unbelievers who hate His Way of salvation. People that Hate His will.. Because God wants to attract people by His message not by signs and wonders..

If a person hates the Gospel of the LORD Jesus then God allows them a plausible deniability an escape into disbelief.. At lest a rejector of God can have a chance at a pleasant life in the flesh.. Imagine what it would be like hating and rejecting the will of God but knowing God is real and Sovereign without any doubts...

That would be a life of torment knowing you are going to die one day and face the terrifying judgement of God.. How can any rejector of God have any hope of enjoying life when they know they are going to die and then be judged??? They cannot..
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
43,560
16,773
113
#52
We probably all have seen one of the people from the title in action at some point in our lives, we seen people perform seemingly un-explainable feats
Yet under closer examination all of them abide the laws of physics and have a natural explanation. There was zero magic tricks performed under a scientific setting that proved to be unexplained by what we know about the natural world. James Randi a "magician" by trade, but a sceptic of the spiritual had issued a 1 million prize to anyone who could prove in a scientific setting that such forces exist, yet no one was able to claim it for last 60 years.

If demons, evil spirits , fallen angels , ghosts and other unseen forces are real why have we never been able to observe a single instance since the invention of the camera.

And if they are not real how can we believe in faith healing and other acts recorded in the bible as something more then just metaphors and myth stories like Zues and other god's leading up to that time ?
Just a point to ponder.....Jesus stated that SATAN'S seat (throne) was located in Pergamus.....<---do you know what was located in Pergamus?

The throne of Zeus.......a study of history, especially Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome will reveal the SAME false god, but with different names....all being Satan attempting to he worshipped in a man as God or as God.......

Question....The BIBLE is spot on describing MAN, our nature, historical context, untold predictions that came to pass exactly as predicted......why would it be in error describing angels, demons, devils, and the spiritual realm?

Why would God make laws and commandments against an activity of man if it is fraudulent or cannot happen?

The witch of Endor called forth Samuel from the grave to talk with Saul
 

Shekinahglory

Active member
Aug 29, 2019
157
62
28
#53
Well, that never has been proven to work. If it has please send me source materiel.
I believe we should not use the Magi as an example. They followed one star and I believe what they followed was the Shekinah Glory of Christ just as it led Israel.
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#54
How do you want something to be proven scientifically when its not something that is on a physical base.
There are miracle healings but even there science fails to explain why. Thats why its supernatural.


I have evidence all around me.
My mothers leg was paralyzed and doctors told her she wont ever walk again nor have children.
Well after being prayed for and anointed by elders, a few days later she walked again, has been walking ever since and has 2 children. She still has the xrays of her spine and newer ones. Doctors are baffled

A friend of mine had stage 4 stomache cancer and was told she was going to die.
One day she woke up in the hospital bed healed and is cancer free until today and everyone from the clinic avoids her for it.
This is a prime example of people being people and making mistakes, My mother had cancer, was a devout Christian, she got prayed for and got much better. Doctors said she will be OK and they never saw a recovery as swift as hers, she then went in for a check up 2 weeks after she was let out, leukaemia had returned and it had moved to her bone marrow , she died 2 months after severe treatment.

Claiming something as a miracle that occurs in the world on a daily basis to both Christians and non Christians, preyed for people and non prayed for people is not evidence for actual miracles.

Study that Fails to Show Healing Power of Prayer

Many Christians always claim to be healed by God. From minor illnesses to cancer, Christians seem to be able to get healed. But have you ever noticed that amputees never get healed? No one who is missing an arm or leg ever goes up to the altar for prayer and comes back to their new one. Why?

You still just made claims and didn't back them up with any evidence. Why ?
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#55
I believe we should not use the Magi as an example. They followed one star and I believe what they followed was the Shekinah Glory of Christ just as it led Israel.
This topic is not about what was written in the Bible or how the story was supposed to be interpreted, but if in fact there is any evidence for supernatural healings, if astrology has any predictability, If magic actually has any effect on the materiel world , can psychics actually read minds and interpret dreams.

Some of these feats are performed in the Bible, but we are trying to discuss the validity of such things happening now days.
If they have, indeed been ever observed is a different question.
 
Oct 29, 2019
100
17
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#56
Just a point to ponder.....Jesus stated that SATAN'S seat (throne) was located in Pergamus.....<---do you know what was located in Pergamus?

The throne of Zeus.......a study of history, especially Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome will reveal the SAME false god, but with different names....all being Satan attempting to he worshipped in a man as God or as God.......

Question....The BIBLE is spot on describing MAN, our nature, historical context, untold predictions that came to pass exactly as predicted......why would it be in error describing angels, demons, devils, and the spiritual realm?

Why would God make laws and commandments against an activity of man if it is fraudulent or cannot happen?

The witch of Endor called forth Samuel from the grave to talk with Saul
You realise, I am talking about recorded events where something was actual magic/ supernatural...

Just a point to ponder.....Jesus stated that SATAN'S seat (throne) was located in Pergamus --- all people in that area knew there was a statue of Zues in Pergamus along with 3 more temples so jesus saying something like that is nothing extra ordinary.

Question....The BIBLE is spot on describing MAN, our nature, historical context, untold predictions that came to pass exactly as predicted......why would it be in error describing angels, demons, devils, and the spiritual realm? ---First point I would argue is that bible is not as accurate as you think, but even if it where as accurate as you believe it would not mean its accurate about things that we have never managed to observe or even confirm to be real.
You just assumed that one part of something has to be applied to all; or that the whole must apply to its parts.
 

Demi777

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2014
6,585
1,549
113
Germany
#57
This is a prime example of people being people and making mistakes, My mother had cancer, was a devout Christian, she got prayed for and got much better. Doctors said she will be OK and they never saw a recovery as swift as hers, she then went in for a check up 2 weeks after she was let out, leukaemia had returned and it had moved to her bone marrow , she died 2 months after severe treatment.

Claiming something as a miracle that occurs in the world on a daily basis to both Christians and non Christians, preyed for people and non prayed for people is not evidence for actual miracles.

Study that Fails to Show Healing Power of Prayer

Many Christians always claim to be healed by God. From minor illnesses to cancer, Christians seem to be able to get healed. But have you ever noticed that amputees never get healed? No one who is missing an arm or leg ever goes up to the altar for prayer and comes back to their new one. Why?

You still just made claims and didn't back them up with any evidence. Why ?
So according to you, when doctors cant even explain what happened its not evidence. Aha ok
God heals when he sees fit, not when people see it fit. U want to understand something that you cant understand without God.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
841
570
93
#58
The real question is...what would prove it to you?

Ponder why faith is necessary and why without faith it is impossible to please God. (scripture)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,808
880
113
#59
I believed in God and it meant everything to me, It coloured how I saw the world it gave me meaning and it gave me strength then, then one day I couldn't believe, I had questions, I had doubts, and they couldn't be answered, I searched, I wanted to believe and I tried, I struggled to make myself believe again, But I couldn't pretend I did without knowing that it was a lie ,so here is my question can a person simply choose to believe in something that they are not convinced of if not and God created our brains to require a certain level of evidence in order to be convinced. Why has he chosen to not provide that level of evidence for us. Even when though I wanted to believe
Seek and you shall find.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,540
2,250
113
#60
My mother had cancer, was a devout Christian, she got prayed for and got much better. Doctors said she will be OK and they never saw a recovery as swift as hers, she then went in for a check up 2 weeks after she was let out, leukaemia had returned and it had moved to her bone marrow , she died 2 months after severe treatment.
Very encouraging to hear your Mother is a devout Christian.. I hope to see her one day in Eternity as my sister in Christ.. It would be wonderful to meet you there too..

Oh my dad is currently getting chemo therapy for bone cancer. I do not expect him to be on earth this time next year. I accept the will of God on the matter.. Indeed our current corrupt physical bodies must die for us to ever interit eternal life in a New perfect eternal body.. Our time on earth is short.. For some it is very short indeed.. But the tragedy is not death itself.. The tradgedy for some is that they will not inherit eternal life in Gods perfect eternal existence..