PreTrib Rapture Moment 5: What Does Catholicism Teach? - Teaching by Bryan Denlinger

[peterT]

Oh yes I did. I already showed you from Scripture, why the Body of Christ cannot be on the Earth during the time of Jacob's trouble. We are not appointed to wrath ( See 1 Thess. 5:9)

Also, it is the time of Jacob's trouble. It is NOT the time of the Church's trouble. PeterT, you need to compare Scripture with Scripture.



Oh yes I am. And I already showed you why Christians are not going to be here in the time of Jacob's trouble. In the time of Jacob's trouble, you have faith AND works:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Do you see that? Faith AND Works.

Now PeterT, are saved today by faith and our works?

Obvious answer is no:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Bible)

In the Church Age, we are saved by grace through faith only.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, things change. People are saved a different way in the time of Jacob's trouble. Again, it is faith AND works in the Time of Jacob's trouble or Tribulation.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. - James 2:14-17 (King James Bible)

And who is the book of James written to?1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The book of James is aimed Doctrinally at a Jew in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Peter, Rightly divide the word of truth.




[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. - 1 Corinthians 15:52 (King James Bible)
Now where in that passage do you see "Last Trumpet?"

Guess how many times the phrase "Last Trumpet" appears in the King James Bible?: 0




Well yes, and that event is called the Second Coming or Second Advent of Jesus Christ. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ is a different event than the Rapture. The Rapture and the Second Coming are NOT the same event. They are two totally different events.




Yes there is. It is called the Rapture or the Catching away of the Saints. Or the Translation of the Saints in the Church Age. Read 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:16-18.

Two different situations doesn’t make a pre-trib rapture bro

One Christian dies before the tribulation and another lives to see the tribulation and has to avoid the mark of the beast, doesn’t show two different Christian people or a pre-trib coming.

If you live to see tribulation you will have to avoid the mark that is the only difference.

Nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture

Right now you don’t have to avoid the mark of the beast, but if great tribulation starts before you die you will have to avoid the mark of the beast. Where is the two different Christians in that?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Two different situations doesn’t make a pre-trib rapture bro

One Christian dies before the tribulation and another lives to see the tribulation and has to avoid the mark of the beast, doesn’t show two different Christian people or a pre-trib coming.

PeterT, you still are not getting the point. If you just read in Jeremiah 30. Read the whole passage of Scripture now, so that you can get the whole context. The passage is talking directly about Israel. It is not even referring to the Gentiles. That passage is talking about Israel, when they will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble.

If you can show me a Christian anywhere in that passage, then your argument and theory might be a little more convincing.

But from what I can see from the Scriptures. I do not see a Christian within 50 chapters after Jeremiah 30, nor do I see a Christian within 50 chapters before Jeremiah 30.

Read the context PeterT. Read the whole passage in Jeremiah 30.

If you live to see tribulation you will have to avoid the mark that is the only difference.

Nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture

Right now you don’t have to avoid the mark of the beast, but if great tribulation starts before you die you will have to avoid the mark of the beast. Where is the two different Christians in that?

There are no Christians in the time of Jacob's trouble Peter. There will be Tribulation saints though. Christians are taken off the earth before the Great tribulation starts.

No Christian should be worried about taking the mark of the beast. Because no Christian will be here for that time period.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

James 2:14-17
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? [SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, [SUP]16 [/SUP]and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? [SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Those two are inseperable. Not two different methods to salvation.

They are separable Matt. In the Church Age, we are saved by faith alone.

In the Time of Jacob's trouble, they are saved by faith AND works.

Two different methods of obtaining salvation. It's there in the Scriptures Matt. Be a Bearean. Study and search the Scriptures.

 

[peterT]

There are no Christians in the time of Jacob's trouble Peter. There will be Tribulation saints though. Christians are taken off the earth before the Great tribulation starts.

No Christian should be worried about taking the mark of the beast. Because no Christian will be here for that time period.

Not according to my bible, my bible say they are Christians

Revelation 12: 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Testimony of jesus

for the accuser of our brethren

overcame him by the blood of the Lamb

this would make them Christians

try again

 

[peterT]

They are separable Matt. In the Church Age, we are saved by faith alone.

In the Time of Jacob's trouble, they are saved by faith AND works.

Two different methods of obtaining salvation. It's there in the Scriptures Matt. Be a Bearean. Study and search the Scriptures.

If the tribulation started today you would avoid the mark of the beast like most Christians would

You don’t need a pre-trib rapture for that to happen, and it doesn’t make two different believing Christians

 

[BeStillMatt]

They are separable Matt. In the Church Age, we are saved by faith alone.

In the Time of Jacob's trouble, they are saved by faith AND works.

Two different methods of obtaining salvation. It's there in the Scriptures Matt. Be a Bearean. Study and search the Scriptures.

Read the passage?. How can you deny scripture when it's right in front of you? "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by works, is DEAD." True faith gives way to works and vice-versa. They are one in the same. I recommend you study & search

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Read the passage?. How can you deny scripture when it's right in front of you? "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by works, is DEAD." True faith gives way to works and vice-versa. They are one in the same. I recommend you study & search

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? - James 2:14-20 (King James Bible)


[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Bible)


[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; - Titus 3:5-6 (King James Bible)


[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, - Romans 4:3-6 (King James Bible)



So Matt, now how do you reconcile James 2:14-20 with Ephesians 2:8-10, Titus 3:5-6, and Romans 4:3-6?

One passage teachings Faith WITH Works. The other passages teaches Faith WITHOUT Works.

You need to study the Bible dispensationally Matt. Obey the command given in 2 Timothy 2:15:


[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. ( King James Bible)

 

[BeStillMatt]

There is only one method to salvation and that IS faith. Without good works, faith is non-existent.I never said that works alone would lead to salvation. Works come from good faith. Anybody who is truly faithful will do good works. There is no contrast between good works and faith(at least not in the NT)

 

[peterT]

Well Christabel, the Last Trump is not the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. I mean just think about it, the seventh (7th) Trumpet is never called the Last Trump in Revelation or anywhere else in the whole Bible.

Also, the Last Trump sounds for a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). While, the 7th Trumpet can be said to last for days. That is the 7th Trumpet sounds for days (See Revelation 10:7).

Well Christabel, the King James Authorized Version is the 100% pure and infallible and inerrant word of God. The more you study the King James Authorized Bible. The more better you will be prepared to begin to rightly divide the word of truth.

Because in order to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), you must first have the word of truth.

And the more you get acquainted with one Bible, then (like I mentioned before), you will be better prepared and encouraged to rightly divide the word of God.

Wrong

It says, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

It doesn’t say the trumpet sounds just for a moment, we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, it doesn’t specify how long the trumpet sounds .

Try to keep it real, and don’t make things up to suit your doctrine .

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[ChurchAuthority]

No it is not Church Authority, The root of the Rapture doctrine can cleary be found in the Scriptures. And by the way, John Nelson Darby did not forumlate the Pre-trib. Rapture doctrine. The pre-trib. Rapture Doctrine was already in the Scriptures.

And yes, the Pre-trib. Rapture was taught before the 1800s. Long before the 1800s.



“For all the saints and the elect of God are gathered prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sin.” - Ephraim (373 A.D.)



And here is what Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) a Baptist Pastor, wrote on the Rapture:


"...the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..."
(Quoted in "Morgan Edwards: Another Pre-Darby Rapturist," by Thomas Ice)


You claim that Peter Ruckman was defeated in a debate with Karl Keating, where is the proof? Do you have a video you could show me?

I have an old audio file from 1987. I don't know where you can get it online anymore but I'lll try to find it.

As for Pre-Trib Rapture Theology - when you can find ANY Early Church teaching on it, then you might have something. It simply doesn't exist because this was NEVER taught by the Early Church.

Ummm, since you say it's Scripturally-based, perhaps you can point me to the chapter and verse . . .

 

[Bistabuster]

Well Christabel, the Last Trump is not the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15. I mean just think about it, the seventh (7th) Trumpet is never called the Last Trump in Revelation or anywhere else in the whole Bible.

Also, the Last Trump sounds for a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52). While, the 7th Trumpet can be said to last for days. That is the 7th Trumpet sounds for days (See Revelation 10:7).

Well Christabel, the King James Authorized Version is the 100% pure and infallible and inerrant word of God. The more you study the King James Authorized Bible. The more better you will be prepared to begin to rightly divide the word of truth.

Because in order to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15), you must first have the word of truth.

And the more you get acquainted with one Bible, then (like I mentioned before), you will be better prepared and encouraged to rightly divide the word of God.

Well, let's see now. If 1 Cor 15:51-52 is the last trumpet, then there can't be any more trumpets after it. I know somebody is going to say that the seven trumpets in Rev are different from this one. The last trumpet is for the church age.

Not true, for if it had a condition on it, it would have said so. Such as the last trumpet of the church age. But no. It said the last trumpet. That means it is the last trumpet of all time.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Wrong

It says, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

It doesn’t say the trumpet sounds just for a moment, we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, it doesn’t specify how long the trumpet sounds .

Try to keep it real, and don’t make things up to suit your doctrine .

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

No PeterT, the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 10 is never called the last trump. If you can show me differently, then you may actually have a case. But you dont. The Last Trump occurs in the Church Age. The Seventh Trumpet or Seventh Angel sounds (Rev. 11:15) in the time of Jacob's trouble. Stop getting them mixed up Peter. Plus the Body of Christ is already in Heaven (See Rev. 11:16)
The twenty four elders are already seated in Heaven which means the Judgement Seat of Christ has already taken place.

Remember the Body of Christ is going to be taken off the Earth before the time of Jacob's trouble begins.


2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[peterT]

No PeterT, the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 10 is never called the last trump. If you can show me differently, then you may actually have a case. But you dont. The Last Trump occurs in the Church Age. The Seventh Trumpet or Seventh Angel sounds (Rev. 11:15) in the time of Jacob's trouble. Stop getting them mixed up Peter. Plus the Body of Christ is already in Heaven (See Rev. 11:16)
The twenty four elders are already seated in Heaven which means the Judgement Seat of Christ has already taken place.

Remember the Body of Christ is going to be taken off the Earth before the time of Jacob's trouble begins.


2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rv11:15And the seventh angel sounded.

Rv 11 :16 is the next verse

Try again

 

[peterT]

No PeterT, the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 10 is never called the last trump. If you can show me differently, then you may actually have a case. But you dont. The Last Trump occurs in the Church Age. The Seventh Trumpet or Seventh Angel sounds (Rev. 11:15) in the time of Jacob's trouble. Stop getting them mixed up Peter. Plus the Body of Christ is already in Heaven (See Rev. 11:16)
The twenty four elders are already seated in Heaven which means the Judgement Seat of Christ has already taken place.

Remember the Body of Christ is going to be taken off the Earth before the time of Jacob's trouble begins.


2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Is that your pre-trib rapture

he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way.

Your still dreaming

 

[peterT]

.


2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

2 Thessalonians 2;3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That day shall NOT come till that man of sin be revealed, NOT BEFORE that Wicked be revealed

2 Thessalonians 2:7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let , until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

And you talking about me getting mixed up.

Try again

 

[zone]

Peter:

who is winning

 

[peterT]

Peter:

who is winning

I think I am winning zone by a longshot

 

[zone]

I think I am winning zone by a longshot

k...now that you have that sorted out...just X out the future 1,000 years (symbolic for NOW) and you r there!
LOL

 

[ChosenbyHim]

There is only one method to salvation and that IS faith. Without good works, faith is non-existent.I never said that works alone would lead to salvation. Works come from good faith. Anybody who is truly faithful will do good works. There is no contrast between good works and faith(at least not in the NT)

Faith is one method. And Faith and Works is another. They are not the same. Now I do understand what your saying about works following good faith. In other words, we don't do good works to get saved, but we do good works because we are saved.


Well there is a contrast though between Ephesians 2:8-9 and James 2:17. And there is a contrast between the Church Age (God's dealings with the Gentiles) and the Time of Jacob's trouble (God's dealings with the Jews, Nation of Israel).

 

[Bistabuster]

Oh yes I did. I already showed you from Scripture, why the Body of Christ cannot be on the Earth during the time of Jacob's trouble. We are not appointed to wrath ( See 1 Thess. 5:9)

Also, it is the time of Jacob's trouble. It is NOT the time of the Church's trouble. PeterT, you need to compare Scripture with Scripture.



Oh yes I am. And I already showed you why Christians are not going to be here in the time of Jacob's trouble. In the time of Jacob's trouble, you have faith AND works:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Do you see that? Faith AND Works.

Now PeterT, are saved today by faith and our works?

Obvious answer is no:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. - Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Bible)

In the Church Age, we are saved by grace through faith only.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, things change. People are saved a different way in the time of Jacob's trouble. Again, it is faith AND works in the Time of Jacob's trouble or Tribulation.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. - James 2:14-17 (King James Bible)

And who is the book of James written to?1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

The book of James is aimed Doctrinally at a Jew in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Peter, Rightly divide the word of truth.




[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. - 1 Corinthians 15:52 (King James Bible)
Now where in that passage do you see "Last Trumpet?"

Guess how many times the phrase "Last Trumpet" appears in the King James Bible?: 0




Well yes, and that event is called the Second Coming or Second Advent of Jesus Christ. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ is a different event than the Rapture. The Rapture and the Second Coming are NOT the same event. They are two totally different events.




Yes there is. It is called the Rapture or the Catching away of the Saints. Or the Translation of the Saints in the Church Age. Read 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:16-18.

Have you tried the NIV Bible? 1 Cor 15:51-52 = "Last Trumpet!"