Dream interpretation

[zone]

[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]Zone:“God's word is the authority.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]cessationismis Biblical.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma, Calibri, Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif]Okay?[/FONT]“
NO,not OK because it is Not Biblical. God does not change; Himself, howHe communicates, His commandments, His anything. He treats ALLpeople the same, desiring that WE become His friends, like Abraham.He gives spiritual gifts today just as He did in the OT. There is notime factor in the spiritual realm so to Him, there is no stopping ofthe giving for He IS the giver, always and forever.

Ask God for a dream, Zone, one that will confirm that it is He that is speaking to you. Or will you just chalk it up to pizza or some other spicy food? You discredit Him and credit the pizza and so you do not believe.
Maggie

maggie...if i ask God for a dream and i'm unclear on it....you'll interpret it for me right?

as for God not changing - of course His character and Holiness and Who He is never changes.

but tell me - did He part the red sea today for you or anyone?

are you planning to go to the temple with turtle doves?

if not, why not maggie?

i'm quite satisfied knowing God in the most intimate way He has given us.
being able to draw near through the shed blood of Christ,
the Lord who has spoken to us in HIS WORD,
of Whom the Holy Spirit testifies.

i don't need dreams, or someone else to tell me what He is saying.

k maggie?

 

[Abiding]

It depends on what faith and grace and all these terms mean to you, and more so what your focus is on religion aside from the 'logistics'. Is it for love? Is it for salvation? Is it for fear of hell? Is it for nothing? Is it because you are afraid? Is it because you are lonely? Is it because you are tired? Is it because you are experimenting?

These words are all subjective to the person's perspective; whether anyone likes that or not.

The word 'faith' may have a vague, widely understood dictionary definition. But every person emotes something different, and attaches something original to it.

Alot of wisdom in your post....i heard a book review about a christian psychologist...i want to buy the book
He linked peoples lifes according to doctrine.

Like charismatics/pentes
babtists with tough legalism/perfectionism

people who feared God as a taskmaster
people who though He was their buddy

im sure this will be a interesting read, since he went deep into their lifestyles, and different outcomes etc
they say you become like the god you worship, id bet the book will prove that out.
Sorry that was all to agree with you.....what definition are we giving words?

 

[Abiding]

Well what if God likes it when you're happy and upbeat and hopeful? And he likes it when you put out good 'vibes' and make others happy too? I can't see why He wouldn't.

See where I'm going with this?

I don't really think it matters what particular rituals one attributes to themselves, or what specific superstitions. We ALL have them.

Like, it could be said that brushing your teeth is a superstition; because you KNOW (have ultimate faith) that your breath won't smell bad for the rest of the day. Because who wants to smell your bad breath, right?

You know what I'm kind of getting at?

But then your workmate brings you a garlic chicken sandwich.

Ya i see your point. Its a good point
id eat the sammy, and not breath on anyone

 

[Porthos]

Alot of wisdom in your post....i heard a book review about a christian psychologist...i want to buy the book
He linked peoples lifes according to doctrine.

Like charismatics/pentes
babtists with tough legalism/perfectionism

people who feared God as a taskmaster
people who though He was their buddy

im sure this will be a interesting read, since he went deep into their lifestyles, and different outcomes etc
they say you become like the god you worship, id bet the book will prove that out.
Sorry that was all to agree with you.....what definition are we giving words?

It's funny that, isn't it?

Personally I sometimes close my eyes and see God like this;

Ever remember how Adam tended to the land? Or how David was a harpist? Etc. Well, I imagine God tending with his mucked up hands, building an Earth in the eons, like his perfect piece of art. Carefully formulating atoms and molecules, and the bonds between them. Mushing the molten rock that formed the world and separating the night and day. Building the sun and the moon like an exquisite engineer, inside the fire, and growing and feeding the trees and the plants like a parent raising a child.

And fashioning the crops and the animals, sharing the entire green planet with them. Having hopes and feeling excitement and a growing sense of love; like when a father's child becomes a toddler.

And then his grandest, most perfect creation; us. Made to tend over the land and find fun in the animals and climb the trees.

And then he was contented. All the emotions of a complete creator.

I see God as a loving, tender, undertanding figure. Like a father, but more. Someone whose heart breaks every time a child dies or a tear gets shed. Someone with all of our emotional ability, and who is also able to see the whole world suffer; but who is strong enough to be able to handle it and respond to it like a just man should.

And it's us who are lacking the focus.

 

[danschance]

The point was i was pulled back in after i left...see the reason i left was that to comment on the OP
became a blast against the one starting the thread, rather then a bible discussion. Then i saw a post to me.
Should be easy to understand that a change in the thread changed my desire to stay out...anyways...

Go ahead and show your scriptures. Why you want to do that i dont know but im fine with it.
Please make your point clear tho. Im familiar with Jesus comments about faith but not "your" point about it.

If I understand you correctly, you claim charismatic gifts counter faith, because now people are walking by what they see or hear and not by faith. Is that a fair assessment? Jesus did many miracles and He often did so after He saw the faith of the individual. So It seems that you point is not valid, that charismatics walk by miracles and not by faith. My point is that miracles are frequently preceded by one's own faith.

 

[damombomb]

Sometimes God gives you a dream to simply encourage you. For example, when Gideon needed reassurance to fight the Midianites he was inspired through a dream and its interpretation.

Gideon arrived just as a man was telling a friend his dream. "I had a dream," he was saying. "A round loaf of barley bread came tumbling into the Midianite camp. It struck the tent with such force that the tent overturned and collapsed." His friend responded, "This can be nothing other than the sword of Gideon son of Joash, the Israelite. God has given the Midianites and the whole camp into his hands." When Gideon heard the dream and its interpretation, he worshipped God. He returned to the camp of Israel and called out, "Get up! The LORD has given the Midianite camp into your hands." Judges 7:13-15

Was Gideon pentecostal or charismatic? Or did he just need to know that he knew that it was Gods doing?

 

[MaggieMye]

Zone: "but tell me - did He part the red sea today for you or anyone? IF I needed Him to do so He would for He is my provider and protector. On the other hand, In Christ, He has given us the authority and power to move our own mountains.

are you planning to go to the temple with turtle doves? What for?

if not, why not maggie? Why not? Because sacrificing in OT ways negates the sacrifice of Christ. Shouldn't you already know that??

i'm quite satisfied knowing God in the most intimate way He has given us. So you think.
being able to draw near through the shed blood of Christ draw near through the blood? Where is that in scripture??
the Lord who has spoken to us in HIS WORD,Yes, His word, His love-letter to us. But what kind of Father would ever just write a letter to his child and then never communicate with him/her again?? No loving father would ever do that and God has not done that either. IF you are not hearing from Him through words of knowledge, through dreams and visions (Acts 2:17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, ‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young menThose not mature in the lord and needing a more literal communication shall see visions, And your old men those more mature in the lord and able to understand the metaphores...like Daniel, like joseph shall dream dreams;of Whom the Holy Spirit testifies.), through His written word, through prayer (it's a TWO-WAY communication you know), then it is because you do not believe that you should and hence you do not believe the scriptures that speak to that. Remember, faith is a CHOICE....belief is a CHOICE and you have chosen Not to believe these truths about our Father.


i don't need dreams, or someone else to tell me what He is saying But apparently you do, but your pride will keep you from being teachable.

k maggie? Sure...have it your way. It is completely your loss. There IS more to God, more about God, more OF God, IF we seek. IF we seek, we SHALL find and it will ALL line up with His written word. You are not a seeker so you will not find.


On another note: A SEER is a prophetically gifted person that has the ability to see into the spiritual realm; angels and demons both. Not all prophetically gifted people are seers. Percentage-wise, maybe 15%...and yet, God tells us that in the end times, this will increase.

 

[Ariel82]

wow....thought that was basic Gospel teaching and the MILK God's children drank first before anything else....

being able to draw near through the shed blood of Christ draw near through the blood? Where is that in scripture??

Hebrews 7
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, [SUP]19 [/SUP]for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

[h=3][/h][SUP]20 [/SUP]And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath [SUP]21 [/SUP](for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
“The Lord has sworn
And will not relent,
‘You are a priest forever[SUP][d][/SUP]
According to the order of Melchizedek’”),[SUP][e][/SUP]


[SUP]22 [/SUP]by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. [SUP]24 [/SUP]But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; [SUP]27 [/SUP]who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.

 

[zone]

honestly maggie....please use the quote feature.

Zone:“God's word is the authority.
cessationismis Biblical.

Okay?“
NO,not OK because it is Not Biblical. God does not change; Himself, howHe communicates, His commandments, His anything. He treats ALLpeople the same, desiring that WE become His friends, like Abraham.He gives spiritual gifts today just as He did in the OT. There is notime factor in the spiritual realm so to Him, there is no stopping ofthe giving for He IS the giver, always and forever.

Zone: "but tell me - did He part the red sea today for you or anyone? IF I needed Him to do so He would for He is my provider and protector. On the other hand, In Christ, He has given us the authority and power to move our own mountains.

OH...GO MOVE RUSHMORE AND VIDEOTAPE IT.

are you planning to go to the temple with turtle doves? What for?

YOU SAID HE NEVER CHANGES (HIS WAY OF DOING THINGS)
WHY AREN'T YOU GOING TO THE TEMPLE.

if not, why not maggie? Why not? Because sacrificing in OT ways negates the sacrifice of Christ. Shouldn't you already know that??

DIDN'T HE CHANGE HIS WAY OF DOING THINGS THEN MAGGIE?
NO MORE TEMPLE, NOR MORE ANIMALS....NO MORE PARTING THE RED SEA.
NO ELIJAH.

JESUS....RIGHT?

i'm quite satisfied knowing God in the most intimate way He has given us. So you think.

C PETER WAGNER CAN GET ME CLOSER TO GOD?

PLAYING DEMONOLOGY AND OCCULT GETS ME CLOSER?

being able to draw near through the shed blood of Christ draw near through the blood? Where is that in scripture??


HEBREWS 4 & 5


the Lord who has spoken to us in HIS WORD,

Yes, His word, His love-letter to us. But what kind of Father would ever just write a letter to his child and then never communicate with him/her again?? No loving father would ever do that and God has not done that either. IF you are not hearing from Him through words of knowledge, through dreams and visions (Acts 2:17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, ‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on allmankind; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young menThose not mature in the lord and needing a more literal communication shall see visions, And your old men those more mature in the lord and able to understand the metaphores...like Daniel, like joseph shall dream dreams;of Whom the Holy Spirit testifies.), through His written word, through prayer (it's a TWO-WAY communication you know), then it is because you do not believe that you should and hence you do not believe the scriptures that speak to that. Remember, faith is a CHOICE....belief is a CHOICE and you have chosen Not to believe these truths about our Father.


NONSENSE


i don't need dreams, or someone else to tell me what He is saying But apparently you do, but your pride will keep you from being teachable.

I IN NO WAY WANT WHAT YOU ARE SELLING.

k maggie? Sure...have it your way. It is completely your loss. There IS more to God, more about God, more OF God, IF we seek. IF we seek, we SHALL find and it will ALL line up with His written word. You are not a seeker so you will not find.

YOU MEAN FUN AND GAMES WITH DEMON BUSTING AND GENERATIONAL CURSES AND TERRITORIAL SPIRITS AND DREAM INTERPRETATION AND ALL THAT?

NO....NO...A THOUSAND TIMES NO THANKS.


On another note: A SEER is a prophetically gifted person that has the ability to see into the spiritual realm; angels and demons both. Not all prophetically gifted people are seers. Percentage-wise, maybe 15%...and yet, God tells us that in the end times, this will increase.

I'D ASK YOU TO DOCUMENT THAT RIDICULOUS ASSERTION, ESPECIALLY THE LAST PART BUT I CAN'T BEAR THESE BLENDED NON-QUOTE-FEATURE POSTS WHERE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT ANYONE IS SAYING.

please don't respond to this post. start a new one.

k.bye.

 

[MaggieMye]

This says sacrifice, but nothing about the 'blood'. We "draw near" because of Christ IN US.

wow....thought that was basic Gospel teaching and the MILK God's children drank first before anything else. and sadly, so many can only drink, rather than chew.

 

[zone]

This says sacrifice, but nothing about the 'blood'. We "draw near" because of Christ IN US.

wow....thought that was basic Gospel teaching and the MILK God's children drank first before anything else. and sadly, so many can only drink, rather than chew.

Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

more evidence of what happens when you spend ALL YOUR TIME playing angels & demons.
NO CLUE.

 

[Ariel82]

seriously?

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

• Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
• Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
• Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
• Hebrews 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
• 1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
• 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

more if you need it, but perhaps more Bible reading and less "dream" seeking would be advisable.

God told us to test the spirits because too often they pretend to be angels of light but are just demons seeking to give people false visions and illusions of "power" with their signs and wonders. even if the prophet speaks true, and seeks to lead you away from GOd you are NOT to listen.

for those who haven't read it.....

[h=3]Deuteronomy 13[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)13 “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ [SUP]3 [/SUP]you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him

 

[zone]

seriously?

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

• Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
  
  
• Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
  
  
• Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.
  
  
• Hebrews 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
  
  
• 1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
  
  
  
• 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
  

more if you need it, but perhaps more Bible reading and less "dream" seeking would be advisable.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ariel82 again.

 

[4enlightment]

Dreams are voices from the spiritual realm, it's not from past memories of something that we had encounter; but the memories is used as a sort of language or alphabet in which the spirits use to communicate with you while your body is at ease or relax, because we can't here the spirits while we are focusing on our daily task; we must remove ourselves from our surroundings and meditate on what the spirits are saying.

 

[jinx]

The ceiling is going to cave in.

 

[inge]

God's word is the authority.
cessationism is Biblical.

okay?

So that's your point of view based on the Bible. When a teacher told me it is this way I was sure to figure out if he/she was right. First I need to know and see myself to be sure. To be honest I have also had this attitude in church.
And on the forum....

In general.
Our authority is the Bible I think we do agree on that.
But I found nowhere in the Bible that the gifts did stop with Paul....or John or with Polycarpus (disciple of John).

Do they baptize at that time? Yes. Do they baptize now? Yes.
Do they have communion at that time? Yes. Do they have communion now? Yes.
Do they speak in tongues than? Yes. Do they speak in tongues now? Yes

I take the Bible seriously, and as my highest authority. So when you can show me a verse from the Bible that the gifts aren't for now. With the very emphasis on verse(s) from the Bible, not a theory next to it. I will gladly tell you your right.

My thoughts on the "debate the gifts"...
Sadly I see much emotions in a negative way intervening in debates like this. I do not see:

"I cannot believe it, because I never heard of it."
"I cannot believe it, because I think it/the gifts ended with John"

I see this:
"Prove it to me that you had a dream and it was from God? You can't, can't you?"

You know what I think about this. I must be crazy than....when I myself am a living prove of speaking in tongues and having dreams... (and may I remind in this that I do not role over the floor nor make animal noises or run around crazy). My experiences mostly happen when I am alone with God.

So when I am (to myself) the living, critical prove, that I asked God what those gifts of God are...and I myself did get the gift of speaking in tongues while praying alone in the bedroom, just in the midst of my normal prayer. Than I cannot deny myself. I can't sorry.

Occult?
So lets assume I am not really ok, not kosher.... I am an unstable christian or drink milk instead of ...oh no...sorry we do not drink blood we plead the blood . In other words, how can one distinguish good from bad. Good fruit from bad fruit. Good Spirit from bad spirits.

Well if one assumes that the gift of tongues still fits....one can assume the gift of discern the spirits is there too. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor 12:10

So the practical question is.....do I....do we believe this?

Critical thinking.
As I said, I am critical. So I also think how is it, for heavens sake, possible that the gifts in church are nowadays made into a soap-opera that makes me cry....

This is what the bible tells me:
Mat 22:7 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So what exactly does Jesus tell here? Let me think....: not that there is NO prophecies, not there is NO casting out of devils... He is telling that they had done this in in His name but they where working iniquity and that He never knew them. Don't you think He would warn us for things? O wait He did do that....

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:5 When should be aware of false prophets? Well....Paul mentions wolves too...and he says after he departs. Act 20:29 I guess.....our time? So there are prophets...hhmmm

Yes, someone can say: but this is about FALSE prophets there is no good one! Who or what says that? Not this verse...or we should this reasoning also apply to this verse: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Math 24:24
So no prophecy nor Christ than....

I do not say I always do everything 100 percent good, none can say they do
(For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. spr 24:16)
Is prophecy always bad? No
Is it always good? No
Are tongues always bad? No
Are they always good? No

But something being sometimes bad is not a reason to leave it all behind. I don't throw Christ away because I think there are false Christs....

Biblical measurement.
For me some of the biggest measures in this all are:

Is there order? Because God is a God of order.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Mat 25:7
​

Let all things be done decently and in order.1 Cor 14:40
​

For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. Col2:5
​

Do people control themselves? (And in this I exclude uncontrolled weeping about sins.)

And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit,Luc 9:42​

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:1 Cor 2:4
​

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1 Cor 14:28​

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.1 Cor 14:31-33
​

Whom or what is glorified? The gift or....the Giver.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Act 4:31
​

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Act 8:18-21
​

 

[zone]

inge thank you for a careful; thoughtful and detailed post explaining both your experiences; your readings of scripture and a careful and reasonable examination of the matters being discussed.

it's cool.

So that's your point of view based on the Bible. When a teacher told me it is this way I was sure to figure out if he/she was right. First I need to know and see myself to be sure. To be honest I have also had this attitude in church.
And on the forum....

okay.

In general.
Our authority is the Bible I think we do agree on that.

okay.

But I found nowhere in the Bible that the gifts did stop with Paul....or John or with Polycarpus (disciple of John).

this is not entirely true.
in fact we see Paul not teaching on the gifts, and unable to heal and far less focus on the gifts nearer the end of his ministry.

Polycarp was a disciple of John and may have exercised or testified of gifts.
we will have to do a little better in historical continuationism than polycarp.

it's just not there.

we can trust the scriptures. Paul said the temporary gifts would cease, and they did.
i don't know why people are offended by this.

The Bible testifies of three major periods of miraculous activity by God:

Exodus & Moses
Elijah and Elisha
Jesus & The Apostles.

do we demand that we see the kinds of miracles He performed re: the Exodus?
no of course not.

Do they baptize at that time? Yes. Do they baptize now? Yes.
Do they have communion at that time? Yes. Do they have communion now? Yes.
Do they speak in tongues than? Yes. Do they speak in tongues now? Yes

I take the Bible seriously, and as my highest authority. So when you can show me a verse from the Bible that the gifts aren't for now. With the very emphasis on verse(s) from the Bible, not a theory next to it. I will gladly tell you your right.

My thoughts on the "debate the gifts"...
Sadly I see much emotions in a negative way intervening in debates like this. I do not see:

"I cannot believe it, because I never heard of it."
"I cannot believe it, because I think it/the gifts ended with John"

I see this:
"Prove it to me that you had a dream and it was from God? You can't, can't you?"

You know what I think about this. I must be crazy than....when I myself am a living prove of speaking in tongues and having dreams... (and may I remind in this that I do not role over the floor nor make animal noises or run around crazy). My experiences mostly happen when I am alone with God.

So when I am (to myself) the living, critical prove, that I asked God what those gifts of God are...and I myself did get the gift of speaking in tongues while praying alone in the bedroom, just in the midst of my normal prayer. Than I cannot deny myself. I can't sorry.

your dreams i will not address...unless you are saying God is speaking and trying to communicate something authoritative to the Church.

i believe you that you are practicing what people call tongues.
my assertion is this is not the miraculous gift poured out at Pentecost.

Occult?
So lets assume I am not really ok, not kosher.... I am an unstable christian or drink milk instead of ...oh no...sorry we do not drink blood we plead the blood . In other words, how can one distinguish good from bad. Good fruit from bad fruit. Good Spirit from bad spirits.

Well if one assumes that the gift of tongues still fits....one can assume the gift of discern the spirits is there too. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor 12:10

So the practical question is.....do I....do we believe this?

Critical thinking.
As I said, I am critical. So I also think how is it, for heavens sake, possible that the gifts in church are nowadays made into a soap-opera that makes me cry....

This is what the bible tells me:
Mat 22:7 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So what exactly does Jesus tell here? Let me think....: not that there is NO prophecies, not there is NO casting out of devils... He is telling that they had done this in in His name but they where working iniquity and that He never knew them. Don't you think He would warn us for things? O wait He did do that....

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:5 When should be aware of false prophets? Well....Paul mentions wolves too...and he says after he departs. Act 20:29 I guess.....our time? So there are prophets...hhmmm

Yes, someone can say: but this is about FALSE prophets there is no good one! Who or what says that? Not this verse...or we should this reasoning also apply to this verse: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Math 24:24
So no prophecy nor Christ than....

I do not say I always do everything 100 percent good, none can say they do
(For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. spr 24:16)
Is prophecy always bad? No
Is it always good? No
Are tongues always bad? No
Are they always good? No

But something being sometimes bad is not a reason to leave it all behind. I don't throw Christ away because I think there are false Christs....

Biblical measurement.
For me some of the biggest measures in this all are:

Is there order? Because God is a God of order.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Mat 25:7
​

Let all things be done decently and in order.1 Cor 14:40
​

For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. Col2:5
​

Do people control themselves? (And in this I exclude uncontrolled weeping about sins.)

And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit,Luc 9:42​

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:1 Cor 2:4
​

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1 Cor 14:28​

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.1 Cor 14:31-33
​

Whom or what is glorified? The gift or....the Giver.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Act 4:31
​

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Act 8:18-21
​

So that's your point of view based on the Bible. When a teacher told me it is this way I was sure to figure out if he/she was right. First I need to know and see myself to be sure. To be honest I have also had this attitude in church.
And on the forum....

In general.
Our authority is the Bible I think we do agree on that.
But I found nowhere in the Bible that the gifts did stop with Paul....or John or with Polycarpus (disciple of John).

Do they baptize at that time? Yes. Do they baptize now? Yes.
Do they have communion at that time? Yes. Do they have communion now? Yes.
Do they speak in tongues than? Yes. Do they speak in tongues now? Yes

I take the Bible seriously, and as my highest authority. So when you can show me a verse from the Bible that the gifts aren't for now. With the very emphasis on verse(s) from the Bible, not a theory next to it. I will gladly tell you your right.

My thoughts on the "debate the gifts"...
Sadly I see much emotions in a negative way intervening in debates like this. I do not see:

"I cannot believe it, because I never heard of it."
"I cannot believe it, because I think it/the gifts ended with John"

I see this:
"Prove it to me that you had a dream and it was from God? You can't, can't you?"

You know what I think about this. I must be crazy than....when I myself am a living prove of speaking in tongues and having dreams... (and may I remind in this that I do not role over the floor nor make animal noises or run around crazy). My experiences mostly happen when I am alone with God.

So when I am (to myself) the living, critical prove, that I asked God what those gifts of God are...and I myself did get the gift of speaking in tongues while praying alone in the bedroom, just in the midst of my normal prayer. Than I cannot deny myself. I can't sorry.

Occult?
So lets assume I am not really ok, not kosher.... I am an unstable christian or drink milk instead of ...oh no...sorry we do not drink blood we plead the blood . In other words, how can one distinguish good from bad. Good fruit from bad fruit. Good Spirit from bad spirits.

Well if one assumes that the gift of tongues still fits....one can assume the gift of discern the spirits is there too. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor 12:10

So the practical question is.....do I....do we believe this?

again, based on the notion that the utterance today are the Biblical languages; and....the reasoning that IF tongues exist today, so must discernment....well, if one is faulty so is the other.

both were unmistakable supernatural gifts to help the new church, as it grew up in the faith.
God was still revealing to them what we now know today - they did not know what the finished, full delivery of all the christian scriptures would be.

Paul said on several occassions he was revealing "mysteries", meaning something new - those things haven't been mysteries since the letters were written.

God is not revealing any new doctrine today.

Paul wrote that we would have everything we need for salvation, sanctification, and perfection (completion) as a church.
the gifts were partial and temporary.

Critical thinking.
As I said, I am critical. So I also think how is it, for heavens sake, possible that the gifts in church are nowadays made into a soap-opera that makes me cry....

This is what the bible tells me:
Mat 22:7 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

well, i agree there is a lot of soap opera - but please explain what makes one example right and another wrong?
the practices and premises are the same.

So what exactly does Jesus tell here? Let me think....: not that there is NO prophecies, not there is NO casting out of devils... He is telling that they had done this in in His name but they where working iniquity and that He never knew them. Don't you think He would warn us for things? O wait He did do that....

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:5 When should be aware of false prophets? Well....Paul mentions wolves too...and he says after he departs. Act 20:29 I guess.....our time? So there are prophets...hhmmm .

Jesus mentioned false prophets.
Paul mentioning wolves does not mean prophets - not does it mean there are true prophets today.

Yes, someone can say: but this is about FALSE prophets there is no good one! Who or what says that? Not this verse...or we should this reasoning also apply to this verse: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Math 24:24
So no prophecy nor Christ than....

Jesus warning His disciples of false prophets (Josephus and other sources say Jerusalem willed filled with bizarre false prophets) does not de facto prove there are true prophets today.

I do not say I always do everything 100 percent good, none can say they do
(For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. spr 24:16)
Is prophecy always bad? No
Is it always good? No
Are tongues always bad? No
Are they always good? No

but...this is all predicated on the fact that God is speaking through prophets today.
and that the languages of Acts & Corinth are what we see today.

as for the idea that some are good and some are bad - how can you know?
no one can understand what is being said!
this is not the miracle of scripture.

But something being sometimes bad is not a reason to leave it all behind. I don't throw Christ away because I think there are false Christs....

can you explain how folks within the movement determine what is bad and what isn't?
it all sounds and looks the same, and people make the same claims.

Biblical measurement.
For me some of the biggest measures in this all are:

Is there order? Because God is a God of order.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Mat 25:7
​

Let all things be done decently and in order.1 Cor 14:40
​

For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. Col2:5​

okay.
i don't see order because it is confusion...both within the movement and certain for observers looking in.
and tongues today are not practiced according to Paul's instructions, even if they were the same thing.

​

Do people control themselves? (And in this I exclude uncontrolled weeping about sins.)

And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit,Luc 9:42​

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:1 Cor 2:4
​

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1 Cor 14:28​

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.1 Cor 14:31-33​

referencing examples from Acts does not mean those things are for today.
it means they are recorded in Acts.
you are not in the Book of the Acts of THE APOSTLES

referencing examples of miracles performed by Jesus does not mean anyone is performing those same miracles today - if they are, please show me. no one is Jesus.

referencing anything from the letters to the Corinthians does not mean anyone is exercising those partial and temporary gifts today.


​

Whom or what is glorified? The gift or....the Giver.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Act 4:31
​

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Act 8:18-21
​

referencing examples from Acts does not mean those things are for today.
it means they are recorded in Acts.
you are not in the Book of the Acts of THE APOSTLES

 

[Abiding]

It's funny that, isn't it?

Personally I sometimes close my eyes and see God like this;

Ever remember how Adam tended to the land? Or how David was a harpist? Etc. Well, I imagine God tending with his mucked up hands, building an Earth in the eons, like his perfect piece of art. Carefully formulating atoms and molecules, and the bonds between them. Mushing the molten rock that formed the world and separating the night and day. Building the sun and the moon like an exquisite engineer, inside the fire, and growing and feeding the trees and the plants like a parent raising a child.

And fashioning the crops and the animals, sharing the entire green planet with them. Having hopes and feeling excitement and a growing sense of love; like when a father's child becomes a toddler.

And then his grandest, most perfect creation; us. Made to tend over the land and find fun in the animals and climb the trees.

And then he was contented. All the emotions of a complete creator.

I see God as a loving, tender, undertanding figure. Like a father, but more. Someone whose heart breaks every time a child dies or a tear gets shed. Someone with all of our emotional ability, and who is also able to see the whole world suffer; but who is strong enough to be able to handle it and respond to it like a just man should.

And it's us who are lacking the focus.

Nice Porthos, I enjoyed reading that.
My lenses need refocusing alot ty

 

[Abiding]

zone gets the wimpy sized post award

 

[danschance]

So that's your point of view based on the Bible. When a teacher told me it is this way I was sure to figure out if he/she was right. First I need to know and see myself to be sure. To be honest I have also had this attitude in church.
And on the forum....

In general.
Our authority is the Bible I think we do agree on that.
But I found nowhere in the Bible that the gifts did stop with Paul....or John or with Polycarpus (disciple of John).

Do they baptize at that time? Yes. Do they baptize now? Yes.
Do they have communion at that time? Yes. Do they have communion now? Yes.
Do they speak in tongues than? Yes. Do they speak in tongues now? Yes

I take the Bible seriously, and as my highest authority. So when you can show me a verse from the Bible that the gifts aren't for now. With the very emphasis on verse(s) from the Bible, not a theory next to it. I will gladly tell you your right.

My thoughts on the "debate the gifts"...
Sadly I see much emotions in a negative way intervening in debates like this. I do not see:

"I cannot believe it, because I never heard of it."
"I cannot believe it, because I think it/the gifts ended with John"

I see this:
"Prove it to me that you had a dream and it was from God? You can't, can't you?"

You know what I think about this. I must be crazy than....when I myself am a living prove of speaking in tongues and having dreams... (and may I remind in this that I do not role over the floor nor make animal noises or run around crazy). My experiences mostly happen when I am alone with God.

So when I am (to myself) the living, critical prove, that I asked God what those gifts of God are...and I myself did get the gift of speaking in tongues while praying alone in the bedroom, just in the midst of my normal prayer. Than I cannot deny myself. I can't sorry.

Occult?
So lets assume I am not really ok, not kosher.... I am an unstable christian or drink milk instead of ...oh no...sorry we do not drink blood we plead the blood . In other words, how can one distinguish good from bad. Good fruit from bad fruit. Good Spirit from bad spirits.

Well if one assumes that the gift of tongues still fits....one can assume the gift of discern the spirits is there too. To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor 12:10

So the practical question is.....do I....do we believe this?

Critical thinking.
As I said, I am critical. So I also think how is it, for heavens sake, possible that the gifts in church are nowadays made into a soap-opera that makes me cry....

This is what the bible tells me:
Mat 22:7 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So what exactly does Jesus tell here? Let me think....: not that there is NO prophecies, not there is NO casting out of devils... He is telling that they had done this in in His name but they where working iniquity and that He never knew them. Don't you think He would warn us for things? O wait He did do that....

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Mat 7:5 When should be aware of false prophets? Well....Paul mentions wolves too...and he says after he departs. Act 20:29 I guess.....our time? So there are prophets...hhmmm

Yes, someone can say: but this is about FALSE prophets there is no good one! Who or what says that? Not this verse...or we should this reasoning also apply to this verse: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Math 24:24
So no prophecy nor Christ than....

I do not say I always do everything 100 percent good, none can say they do
(For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. spr 24:16)
Is prophecy always bad? No
Is it always good? No
Are tongues always bad? No
Are they always good? No

But something being sometimes bad is not a reason to leave it all behind. I don't throw Christ away because I think there are false Christs....

Biblical measurement.
For me some of the biggest measures in this all are:

Is there order? Because God is a God of order.

Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. Mat 25:7
​

Let all things be done decently and in order.1 Cor 14:40
​

For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. Col2:5
​

Do people control themselves? (And in this I exclude uncontrolled weeping about sins.)

And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit,Luc 9:42​

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:1 Cor 2:4
​

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1 Cor 14:28​

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.1 Cor 14:31-33
​

Whom or what is glorified? The gift or....the Giver.

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Act 4:31
​

And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Act 8:18-21
​

I enjoyed your post. ♥

Those who claim the gifts have ceased, for the most part, have never witnessed any act of God. So for them cessation seems logical. Cessationism can not be proved by the scriptures. Paul does say gifts will cease but never mentions when. It is just an assertion one believes.