Do Jews Have a Divine Right in the Promised Land?

[JaumeJ]

ibid................

Often wondered the same thing lol

 

[Elizabeth619]

That is why you through your anger at what I say, being as I only speak what the word speaks, need to be very careful that you don't mis-judge me by your anger.

My anger? I quoted one passage and that's anger?

 

[Widdekind]

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

that seems clear & unambiguous --

in the original Greek, "promises" (epaggalia) were given to Jesus the Chosen son of Abraham (Gal 3); "grace" (charisma) was given to all Jews, as to all sons of Abraham, as to all gentiles, i.e. to all humans world-wide (Rom 11). That grace is the (notional) offer of Salvation by Faith, via Holy Spirit, in Jesus as Christ, and also Lord.

From the NT Greek, no ambiguity exists (except how is Grace extended to everybody, "many called", when only a few are also Chosen, Matt 20,22 ?).

 

[jerusalem]

i think that, once again, people are failing to take into consideration the dual nature of prophecy...... the re-establishment of the physical nation of israel began may 14-15,1948. it is the precursor to the spiritual fulfillment. the either or attitude on this subject is extremely divisive. the prophecies are always dual and the physical expression of those prophecies always precede the spiritual.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I noticed you have used the following tactic before that amounts to this-your opinion is God's Word whereas the other's is only personal opinion. hmmm interesting

It is entirely up to you which you will choose to be the most important to you; the word of truth, or, seeking fault with how that word is delivered to you.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

that seems clear & unambiguous --

in the original Greek, "promises" (epaggalia) were given to Jesus the Chosen son of Abraham (Gal 3); "grace" (charisma) was given to all Jews, as to all sons of Abraham, as to all gentiles, i.e. to all humans world-wide (Rom 11). That grace is the (notional) offer of Salvation by Faith, via Holy Spirit, in Jesus as Christ, and also Lord.

From the NT Greek, no ambiguity exists (except how is Grace extended to everybody, "many called", when only a few are also Chosen, Matt 20,22 ?).

Which then means there is no difference between them and anyone else. Only the remnant by faith among all men are being saved. Indeed, that was what God's dispersing them into all the nations pictured.

You asked: "From the NT Greek, no ambiguity exists (except how is Grace extended to everybody, "many called", when only a few are also Chosen, Matt 20,22 ?)"

Grace does not save us in and of itself. Grace IS saving us by grace being the only way we have to a living status where we can work with Christ by love toward the completion of our salvation.

Those that are not chosen are those who though called, cannot be chosen due to being unwilling to some degree to let go of directing their own steps. Thus many come to Christ, but only few really give themselves to fully cooperate with Christ. And they cannot therefore be chosen.

 

[Seriphena]

It isn't what I think, but what the Word of God says. I could find and quote a lot of prophecy, after all, 1/3 of the Bible is Prophecy and about 9/10th is unfulfilled.

Jeremiah 16:14-15 - "Therefore behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "that it shall no more be said, `The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,' but, `The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.' For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Jer 33:7 And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.

Isaiah 66:7-8 - "Before she was in labor, she gave birth; before her pain came, she delivered a male child. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, she gave birth to her children."

Ezekiel 37:16-17 - "As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: 'For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.' Then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.' "Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand."
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Ezekiel 37:21-22 - "Then say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again."​

God will restore the land to Israel

Mark Twain visited Israel in the 1860's and wrote about it in his book "Innocents Abroad". He reported that Israel was a barren wasteland with no trees. Almost 2000 years of foreign conquerors had abused the land having no respect for it. Today there are over 400 million trees in Israel and rainfall has increased over 450% since the beginning of this century.

Isaiah 35:1-2 - The wilderness and the wasteland shall be glad for them, and the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose; It shall blossom abundantly and rejoice, even with joy and singing. The glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the excellence of Carmel and Sharon. They shall see the glory of the LORD, the excellency of our God.


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<i>[video=youtube;ydwxy9yqhzM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM[/video]

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Hey, I don't get this AT ALL! I heard not one mention of Jesus Christ in all of this video. So you people are suggesting that these people who have never recognized their Messiah, the very fulfillment of the promise given to them by their God, the ultimate reason for His covenant with them in the first place, are still God's special special, super blessed people? Have you forgotten that Jesus said the promise would be taken from them and given to another? BECAUSE they rejected their cornerstone? Has that changed? Have they accepted Jesus Christ, the very fulfillment of their covenant with God? Also, some if not all of these ancient prophecies, that Israel would be put back in their homeland, etc., were already fulfilled in the OT. Now, it's not like I don't believe many Jews will come to Christ in the last days, but to say their return to Israel is, at this point in time, a fulfillment of those prophecies seems highly questionable. Sure, I want to see them back there, but only because I desire for them to accept their messiah, for until they do, they will not God's people, and when they do, they will be no more God's people than anyone that accepts Christ, and hence, have become grafted in the vine, and are now part of the true Israel, the body of Christ. To say otherwise is to simply ignore scriptures. Again, Jesus said he was taking the promise away from the Jewish people (because they rejected Him) and was giving it to another people. This "the Jewish people in Israel is God's will and everyone better support it or God's against it stuff is super questionable. These people are NOT CHRISTIANS! They are no more Christians than the Muslims! They have not accepted Christ. Sure, we desire to encourage them towards that end, but they are NOT until they ARE! There's something very wrong with pushing this kind of thinking!

You as Christians think it's Ok to support their form of spirituality WITHOUT accepting Christ? What did Christ say about that? And what about the celebrities on this video supporting this stuff? Are they Christians? What's the deal here?

I REALLY have to wonder about this video. Was the name of Jesus mentioned even once?

 

[JaumeJ]

When I click on a like it is because I believe I understand what has been posted and why. It is not to fan any flames of discontent within the people posting, though there are times it cannot be avoided.

All concerned, please forgive me if my likes are taken in any other manner than to encourage a just position and declaration in the light of Yahweh's truth.

It is never a good feeling to feel abandoned by fellows in Yeshua, especially when insinuations and direct affronts occur. Yahweh bless all here who are truly in Yeshua in spirit and truth, amen.

My anger? I quoted one passage and that's anger?

 

[Seriphena]

You are a fool. And God is going to come to you shortly to end the reign of your lies.

Kardiaoangelous, that was the WRONG answer. I thought that much of what you had to say was interesting, though there was also a lot I wasn't getting where it came from. But when you say this? You should never ever say this, especially in regard to what and who you were addressing. That did not come from the Holy Spirit. You should go pray and ask for guidance. You seriously need to readdress who you serve.

 

[doulos]

That is why you through your anger at what I say, being as I only speak what the word speaks, need to be very careful that you don't mis-judge me by your anger.

Your private interpretations are not the same as the word.


2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

 

[doulos]

Matthew 5:22

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

I showed him this verse earlier. Sadly his scripturally bankrupt private interpretations make a mockery of this verse!

Or should I say his private interpretations make the word of God of none effect.

 

[Seriphena]

I just let facts speak for themselves and they dont need 20,000 pages of theological persuasion. If you are following a theology which requires you to work extremely hard in "proving" it and you are finding other passages in Bible also need another 20,000 pages of writing to back that up, then its obvious its a false theology.


FACT: Jews have never really been a nation of believers and have always rebelled against God.
FACT : Babylon enslavement extended to 2520 years.
FACT: 1948 is the end of the 2520 years and Jews are allowed to rule their own lands again.
FACT : Prophecy is fufilled and the continuation of Gods Genesis covenant for the Jews continues.


Here are facts, plain simple and they speak for themselves, which is supported by Bible.
Using the argument that the Jews in Israel today are not believers in God therefore they are fake jews and Israel is not the Israel of Bible, is utterly foolish and ridiculous statement to make. Since when has the nation of Israel in Bible ever had a population which have been a nation of believers let alone completely committed to God? Jews today are simply doing what they have done since they were led out of Egypt.

Prophecy shows us the only time they will as a nation accept Christ is right at the last moment before the Beast and Flase Prophet finally destroy them all and Jesus shows up.

Jews have never been united as a nation believing in God. Even when Moses was up the mountain collecting 10 commandments, the Israelites were building altars and worshipping false gods, even thought they would have witnessed Gods miricles and judgements to remove them from slavery. This set the trend for rest of history.

Move on to Babylon enslavement, yet again the Jews angered God for disobedience and worship of false gods so God had the population enslaved as punishment. This ended when Persians under King Cyrus invaded Babylon. The Jews were told to go home, God expected them to build a temple, burn sacrifices and under go a period of repentance , but they did not do this. SO instead they are punished further, the initial enslavement under the Babylonians was extended 7 times which lasted 2520 years, we see how the Jews and theirs lands were continually under occupation for this period.

This leads us on to another fact, that Israel regained its self rule and its lands in 1948, which was right on time as the 2520 years had just ended.

Read Ezekiel chapter 4 and see Leviticus 26 for the punishments handed down being seven times the original.


Israel today is a thorn in many Christians side, as it challenges numerous theologies they have been taught and decided to follow. Many of these put Christians on a pedastool and elvate Christians and the church above Jews and above Isreal, which of course is rather good news to many Christians as it puts everyone at number one spot and those evil wicked Zionists along with the evil fake non-believer Jews can rot under their feet and in hell.

I think your points are very valid. I'm divided over this myself. I don't think the Jews are "God's People" until they accept Christ. However, I definitely think that's God's desire as well as His intention, to bring them back to Him. I actually feel that desire deeply within myself. Obviously, they're super special in the way that through them, Christ came. I sure don't think this is about who's top dog though. lol. I think we put them there (I mean back in Israel in the 1940s) and we're responsible for them from that perspective. We're also responsible in my opinion to protect any people who are being oppressed. I just don't believe we should think we MUST defend them based on the idea alone that they're still God's chosen people and God will get us if we don't. Our attitude towards them should be what it is towards any nation. We should desire to share the gospel with them; bring them to Christ, and we should defend them if it's right to do defend them. As for whether or not this is God's will that they're back there? I'm sure it's part of "what's been prophesied to come to pass." But again, that doesn't mean they're all God's people, or that God even planned it this way. Maybe He just knew it would happen. Zionists, however, from what I've heard, absolutely do not accept Christ and most are even atheists? So again and again, they're no different than any atheist, Muslim, or what we might call pagan in this world. We still love them though, obviously, and desire to bring them to Christ.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Your private interpretations are not the same as the word.


2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Amen, so be willing always to try the spirit by looking to find if there is any true word of God in it. It is not being obedient to the counsel at 1 John 4:1 to only try the spirit as to your perception of love.

Love hates evil and clings to what is good. What is good is God's truth (all of it) which sets us free. Not this mistaken idea you seem to have that this kind of love which excuses anything and which even the wicked are able to do.

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

I have spoken enough toward that and so now I will go back to ignoring the chatter of ignorance of truth.

 

[Seriphena]

Mark the word that came through me as you will not be joking about it then.

I repeat. This is alarming to read. You are not God, and you do not speak for God. You're basically cursing these people because they disagree with you. That shows a total lack of wisdom on your part.

What I see here is a gross arrogance, as in the very opposite of humility. You obviously think you speak for God Himself and have a private line into a perfect understanding of scriptures. Gross arrogance, is again, the very opposite of what Christ told us to have. What do you think will happen next? Your prophecy will most probably be exacted upon yourself.

 

[JaumeJ]

Yes, I felt that same alarm when dealing with these posts in the past. Yahweh bless you and keep you always, amen.

I repeat. This is alarming to read. You are not God, and you do not speak for God. You're basically cursing these people because they disagree with you. That shows a total lack of wisdom on your part.

 

[Abiding]

 

[zone]

Re: Do Jews Have a Divine Right in the Promised Land?

do we have this sorted out yet?









[answer forthcoming later]

 

[Elizabeth619]

Maybe it's time for us to let it go and move on. Many have shown scripture to help one see their error. Backlash occured and its gone downhill from there. There's really no need to continue arguing with those who are belligerent.

We have done all we can do. Lets pray for this person and move on.

 

[Abiding]

Re: Do Jews Have a Divine Right in the Promised Land?

do we have this sorted out yet?









[answer forthcoming later]

ya get your rest

 

[Elizabeth619]

Oh. He was banned. I see that now.