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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
113
Question for you Angela53510; where did Tertullian discover the doctrine of the Trinity?

Where did the early church fathers get the doctrine of the trinity?

I mean did the doctrine of the trinity come from the early church fathers? Or did it come from Scripture?
Without the Scriptures, we would not have any doctrine to go on.

Wasn't the word of God available in first and second century?




Angela, again where did the church fathers at the council of Nicea get the doctrine of the trinity? Where did it come from?

They did not invent the doctrine out of thin air.

The King James Bible is the perfect, preserved word of God. So we have a perfect standard and know what the originals said in the Hebrew and Greek language.

So although we do not have the original autographs, we have a copy of how the original autographs read. Why? Because God promised to preserve His pure words.

6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. - Psalm 12:6-7 (Holy Bible)

So I am going to stand by my statement. We don't get our doctrine from the church tradition or the tradition of the church fathers or which ever else. We get our doctrine from the word of God.






Well why do most of the modern versions take out the clearest verse on the trinity in the whole Bible? You know which verse I am referring to right?

I am referring to 1 John 5:7.

And yes, the doctrine of the Trinity would have to have been in the Original autographs. And it was, I know by faith it was because the Holy Bible teaches the doctrine of the trinity. The trinity and Godhead is also clearly taught in 1 John 5:7.




Angela, you are wrong. There are absolutely NO mistakes in the precious Authorized King James Holy Bible. There cannot be any errors or mistakes in God's perfect word. God cannot lie (See Titus 1:2).

All the "alleged" and "supposed" "errors" or "mistakes" that you think are in the King James Bible can be explained by simply doing a diligent Bible study in the King James Bible. And by rightly dividing the word of truth.

You have to study. This ain't fast food Christianity. You are going to need to study if you want to find out the truth of the Bible Version Issue. You do not have to be ignorant on this issue Angela.

And by the way; the Byzantine manuscripts have been shown to be very early in date also. Look up an article which Brother Will Kinney did on the Byzantine text and manuscripts.

You can read as many versions as you want to. That is your choice. But I choose to stick with the perfect and pure word of God.

I don't need to read the counterfeits that are out there.

All I need is my King James Bible. It is the absolute truth and absolute Final Authority of all matters of faith and practice.

The King James Bible has been tried and tested. It is the perfect word of God.
The PERFECT KJV, hey? Do you read Koine Greek or Biblical Hebrew so you can compare????

I do, and the KJV has many errors, and translational biases. I could list so many, but you are so caught up in your KJV cult, you would never read them.

So I will post a few links. Please read them, as you expect everyone to read your videos and links.

"KJV Only" advocates refuted!

King James Version Bible Errors

If you are saying that if we don't read the KJV we are not saved, you really don't know Christ at all. Believe and repent is the message of the Bible.

Believe in Jesus Christ.

Repent of your sins.

God will save you.

That is the gospel.

And yes, the word of God IS very important. But not the KJV, as I said, the doctrine of the Trinity did not come from the KJV. The doctrine of salvation did not come from the KJV.

In fact, all the true and good we find in the Bible came long before the KJV. In fact, the Protestant Reformation, started by a German Scholar, Martin Luther, came from him translating the Greek and Hebrew into the first German Bible, where he found the whole concept of salvation by grace. NO KJV involved!!

Salvation does not come by the KJV, it comes by the Holy Spirit enlightening our hearts through the Bible. That means any version which is basically true to the original. I was saved reading a Catholic Bible. The truth of God's loving forgiveness, mercy and grace comes through in any version of the Bible, if you read it, and pray and the Holy Spirit moves and God saves you.
 
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sunshinelovin1700

Guest
Well Sunshine1700, I want to first thank you for showing that corruption that is in the NIV, and of course that has been on here before. And I am glad that you have been able to discern that corruption that is in the NIV. It seems that the more information you give to the Christians out there who support the new versions, the more they just to pretend it is not there. But it is.

Well maybe I should have been more detailed with my words. In context, I was telling Rachel that she needs to get right with the Lord in terms of the Bible Version Issue which is an issue over Final Written Authority.

Because she is not in the right on this issue. And it is quite clear that she is not in the right, she is on the wrong side of this issue.

And also Sunshine1700, that passage in Matthew 7 which you shared on judging others. Well the context of that passage is hypocritical judgment. And we know that because in Matthew 7:15 Jesus says:
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

To beware of the false prophets which are out there, we have to judge and discern between the real and the false teachers who are out there. So doing that does indeed involve judgment.

Here is the context of the passage:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. - Matthew 7:13-29 (King James Bible)

You see when I discovered the Bible Version Issue, and when I was shown the truth on it. And I had to then make a decision. And part of that decision was which side I was going to choose to be on. And I chose to be on the side that defends Final Written Authority.

So I am not doing any hypocritical judgment here. Again, in context with the issue being discussed on this thread, I was letting Rachel know that she needs to get right with the Lord on this Bible Version Issue. So again, I should have been just a little more clear in regard to what my statement to her was pertaining to.

But again Sunsine1700, I do thank you for acknowledging that truth in regard to the correct rendering of Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12, versus the false reading of morning star & daystar in Isaiah 14:12 in the modern versions.

And who knows maybe you may be able to reach Rachel, seeing that you two are friends.

Sometimes we just need to rebuke those that need it, that way they be sound in the faith. And yeah I understand that we need to encourage and love one another, I agree with you there.

But we also need to contend for the faith and for the truth that we have been shown. Even if it means rebuking at times other fellow Christians who need it.

And trust me, I know that I need rebuking too at times. I am not above correction. There have been brethren on here who have corrected me before and I thanked them for it. And I acknowledged the points which they were right on.

Thanks for clearing that up for me I took it wrong. That was very humbling of you. :)
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
63
Thanks for clearing that up for me I took it wrong. That was very humbling of you. :)
Absolutely Sunshine1700 :)

Anytime. You are more than welcome. I definitely need to work on wording things more specifically and with more detail in regarding the issue that is being discussed.

I am glad that you vouched for your friend and sought after clarity on this in pertaining to one of the statements which I made. That speaks volumes in terms of your character. There are not too many people that will do that these days. And I am glad that clarity has been made on this. One this is for sure Sunshine1700, Rachel is fortunate to have a loyal and true friend like you. :)
 
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sunshinelovin1700

Guest
UMMM If you all want to forget that this verse it is ALSO IN THE KJV

Job 36

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?


What do you all do with this verse? You all want to try taken all the verses within the context of which they are written and quit trying to make them say something they are not.

It is quite obvious that the Bible uses the words morning star in multiple ways. EVEN YOUR BELOVED KJV
At least be honest about that.

Well let me say that I find the way you are saying "beloved kjv" is kinda tweeking a button, I've always used a kjv and I also look up origional greek and hebrew words to get a better idea of the scriptures. After my 3rd child was born I recieved a NIV mother's devotional Bible as a gift and yes I suppose it's easier to understand but after reading from it a bit I began switching back and forth between versions and noticed many things were changed or left out all together. The pastor from my church never condemned the NIV but suggested I switch between the versions and indeed compare. My children have a adventure Bible and it is NIRV because it is easier for them to comprehend. I don't condemn it either but I do not prefer it. If you compare the verses
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Isaiah 14:12, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"[/TD]
[TD="width: 250"]Isaiah 14:12, "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Now why not just keep Lucifer's name why did they do this?
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
Because other bibles want to confuse jesus and lucifer and therefore trick christians into worshipping and not jesus...blah blah blah. Thats honestly the actual answer you will probably get and if you think about it for like 2 seconds you realize just how stupid the whole argument is.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
Now why not just keep Lucifer's name why did they do this?
the short answer is that lucifer isn't even his name...

'lucifer' is a latin translation of the hebrew word 'heylel'...which means 'morning star'...'lucifer' is how 'heylel' was rendered in the latin vulgate bible...

for some unknown reason king james' translators inserted the latin alias into their version instead of actually translating 'heylel' into english...

the modern bible translations have merely remedied this inexplicable quirk...
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
Because other bibles want to confuse jesus and lucifer and therefore trick christians into worshipping and not jesus...blah blah blah. Thats honestly the actual answer you will probably get and if you think about it for like 2 seconds you realize just how stupid the whole argument is.
All cults are stupid and illogical when you scratch the surface. No different from this King James only cult. You only have to read the rantings of its leaders to see that.

The King James is littered with translational errors, which proves its not the inspired Bible that this cult claims, another example is this

Hebrews 4:8 & Acts 7:45: "Jesus" is changed to "Joshua". (NIV, NASV, RSV) taken from The New King James Bible: Counterfeit

This again shows you that the King James only cult are not the brightest or most intelligent of humans on this earth, as anyone who has even a basic understanding of Biblical history can clearly see that the passages are referering to Joshua. Jesus and Joshua in Greek and Hebrew are identical, the 1611 translation failed to understand this and just simply put Jesus in, when clearly its talking about Joshua son of Nun, who brought the second generation into Cannan.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
Well let me say that I find the way you are saying "beloved kjv" is kinda tweeking a button, I've always used a kjv and I also look up origional greek and hebrew words to get a better idea of the scriptures. After my 3rd child was born I recieved a NIV mother's devotional Bible as a gift and yes I suppose it's easier to understand but after reading from it a bit I began switching back and forth between versions and noticed many things were changed or left out all together. The pastor from my church never condemned the NIV but suggested I switch between the versions and indeed compare. My children have a adventure Bible and it is NIRV because it is easier for them to comprehend. I don't condemn it either but I do not prefer it. If you compare the verses
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Isaiah 14:12, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"[/TD]
[TD]Isaiah 14:12, "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Now why not just keep Lucifer's name why did they do this?
I said that because often people do put the KJV up on a pedestal almost as if it was God Himself. I still use a KJV,with the NIV and the Greek interlinear. Part of what you need to realize when the KJV was translated ALL OF THE TRANSLATERS where from the church of England.

The Hebrew word that the KJV uses for Lucifer is not used as a proper name. The writers of the KJV did that it's not in the original Hebrew.

And again how do you when using the KJV deal with the passage from Job? That verse is taken from the KJV where they say morning stars.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
63
the short answer is that lucifer isn't even his name...

'lucifer' is a latin translation of the hebrew word 'heylel'...which means 'morning star'...'lucifer' is how 'heylel' was rendered in the latin vulgate bible...

for some unknown reason king james' translators inserted the latin alias into their version instead of actually translating 'heylel' into english...

the modern bible translations have merely remedied this inexplicable quirk...

Rachel, heylel does not mean morning star.

Here is an excerpt from an article Will Kinney wrote in regard to the Isaiah 14:12 rendering of Lucifer in the KJB versus the rendering of morning star in the corrupt modern versions.


Excerpt from: Lucifer or Morning Star? - By Will Kinney

"The problem with the translation, "MORNING STAR" (#1966- haylale), is that the words "morning" and "star" are not found here in ANY Hebrew text. (Morning is #1242- boker and star is #3556- kokawb)

The word for star IS found in verse 13, where it says: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." The two words, morning and star, are found together in Job 38:7, where God is asking Job in verse 4, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?. . . When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" This might be a reference to the angels who rejoiced at God's creation, or the "morning stars" that sang may well be an anthropomorphism of the first created literal stars "singing". God also describes mountains and hills as singing and trees of the field clapping their hands (See Isaiah 55:12).

Another serious problem with rendering this word (#1966 Haylale) as "morning star" is that Jesus Christ himself is called the morning star in Rev. 22:16 where he says: "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." The NIV and NASB make it possible to identify Satan with Jesus Christ. I believe this is Lucifer's ultimate game plan and that the new versions have taken a giant step forward in advancing Satan's deception.

In fact, if you take a look at the notes on Isaiah 14:12 in the Amplified bible (put out by the same people who gave us the NASB), you will find the following "explanation": "'Light-bringer' or 'Shining one' was originally translated Lucifer, but because of the association of that name with Satan it is not now used. Some students feel that the application of the name Lucifer to Satan, in spite of the long and confident teaching to that effect, is erroneous. Lucifer, the light-bringer is the Latin equivalent of the Greek word Phosphoros, which is used as a title of Christ in 2 Peter 1:19 and corresponds to the name 'bright Morning Star' in Revelation 22:16, which Jesus called Himself."

The word translated as Lucifer in the KJB occurs only once in the Hebrew, just as the word Lucifer occurs only once in the Holy Bible. It is a noun and it comes from a very interesting verb #1984 hawlal. This verb is used many times and has many very different meanings including: "to shine, to be foolish, to boast, to glory, to praise, and to be mad (insane or crazy)".

Isn't it interesting that Satan boasts and glories in his wisdom and power, wants to receive praise as god, shines as an angel of light to deceive, and his madness in wanting to be like the most High is ultimately the height of foolishness?

Some Bible critics get a bee in their bonnets about the translation Lucifer and they claim this is merely a Latin word, and they ask why does the King James Bible have a Latin translation in it. This is a really silly objection if you think about it. In 382 A.D. Jerome translated from the Hebrew into Latin and he believed Lucifer (bearing light) was the best translation to depict who this entity was that wanted to be like God and fell from heaven.
In 425 the Latin Vulgate did the same and later on the Latin Clementine version did likewise. The 2005 electronic edition of the Latin Clementine reads this way: "Quomodo cecidisti de cælo, Lucifer, qui mane oriebaris?" You can see this Latin translation online here -

Vulgata Clementina


Numerous other Bible translators agree. If you begin to criticize the Latin, you get yourself into all kinds of problems. Numerous words found in the English language come directly from Latin. In the Bible we get such words as justice = Latin iustitiam; sacrifice = sarificium; cross = crucem; saint= sancti; and revelation = revelationis, to name but a very few. Yet not one of these English words looks anything remotely like the literal Hebrew and Greek words in the texts from which we get our English translations. The Latin gave us many good words that eventually were carried over into English." - Will Kinney (
Lucifer or Morning Star?)



Also, I will give you another excerpt. This one is a little more lengthy; but it has a lot of good information in it. This one is from David Daniel's work
(Bible Versions - your questions answered)


Answers To Your Bible Version Questions


By David Daniels

Question: Should the Bible say “Lucifer” or “morning star” in Isaiah 14:12? And does it refer to Satan?

Answer:
The King James Bible is correct. Although “Lucifer” is the Latin version of the name, the passage is talking about Satan, not a mere Babylonian king.



Light-Bearer or Morning Star?

Throughout the world, if you ask people who “Heyleel” (hey-LEYL) is, most will not know what to answer. But if you ask them, “Who is Lucifer?” you will very likely get the correct answer. People know who Lucifer is. Ask the Luciferians, who worship Lucifer as a being of light. Ask the Satanists, who call their master Lucifer. No one is in doubt as to who Lucifer is.
What if you ask them, “Who is the morning star?” or “Who is the day star?” Most will know it’s Jesus. Look at these scriptures:
2 Peter 1:19: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:”Revelation 22:16:I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

Any translation that says “day star” or “morning star” or “star of the morning” in Isaiah 14:12, like most modern perversions, is bringing confusion. And God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33). Many people reading the modern perversions end up asking, “If Lucifer is the morning star and Jesus is the morning star, then is Lucifer Jesus?” The modern translations are simply not clear!


That is not all. The term translated "Lucifer" does NOT at all mean "morning star" or "star of the morning." That would be two totally different Hebrew words. The word means "light-bearer." In Greek it's "heosphoros," “light-bearer.” In Latin it's translated "Lucifer," light-bearer. Whether you say "heylel," "heosphoros" or "lucifer," the meaning is the same: "light-bearer." But only Lucifer communicates who we are talking about in English.
And not only English uses the term. Look at these ancient translations of the word. They also use some form of “Lucifer.”

[TABLE="width: 400, align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70"]Spanish[/TD]
[TD="width: 230"]Reina-Valera (1557 through 1909)[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]Lucero[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70"]Czech[/TD]
[TD="width: 230"]Kralika (1613)[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]lucifere[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 70"]Romanian[/TD]
[TD="width: 230"]Cornilescu (to present)[/TD]
[TD="width: 100"]Luceafar[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Going Deeper: the Example of Ezekiel

There is evidence that God is speaking through his prophet to someone other than the king, even though it starts out to that person. Ezekiel 28 is an excellent example. It begins by talking about a human being ruling as king of Tyrus (Tyre). Then the scene shifts and the devil behind the leader starts to take focus:
First God addresses the king, called the "prince of Tyrus":

Ezekiel 28:1-2:
“The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God”

Then to the devil behind the prince, called the "king of Tyrus" (note the more specific references that have nothing to do with the location or time of Tyre):

Ezekiel 28:11-17:
“Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.”


There was no one in Tyre that was in Eden or the mountain of God. No one there was a cherub (a type of angel). No one there was "created." This is Satan, Lucifer, the serpent, the dragon, the devil. (And I'm sure he recognizes those names for him by now!) Satan/Lucifer/the serpent/the dragon was a cherub, an angel. He was created, since angels were created, not born. Humans were born after Adam and Eve, not created. He was in the garden of God, Eden. He was the "covering cherub." He was "bright" as an angel of light (see also 2 Corinthians 11:14)


Now let's look back at Isaiah 14. Isaiah also begins talking to the physical king of Babylon, then afterward to the spirit behind him.

It starts out to the king:

Isaiah 14:4-8:
“…thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us”


Then it changes in tone:


Isaiah 14:12-15:
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”


The scriptures tell us who this is. Jesus said:

Luke 10:18-20:
“And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.”

Revelation also leaves no doubt as to who fell from heaven:

Revelation 12:7-12:
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”


So we know that the only ones in the Bible that fell from heaven are the Devil and his angels. These are the ones for whom “everlasting fire,” the lake of fire, was made:

Matthew 25:41:
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”Revelation 20:10: “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”


The King James Bible is right, however we view it. Even if we pretend the scripture is only talking to the earthly king, it still is clearly talking about Satan, the Devil, known world over as Lucifer.
May God bless you as you read and trust the translation of His preserved words in English, the King James Bible.

Excerpt From David Daniel's (Answers To Your Bible Version Questions)

 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
2,638
88
48
What a surprise more cut and paste. NOT. One of the problems with this cut and paste reply, is that this cult seems to think that there is and should be equivalent words in Hebrew and Greek for English words, when there are not, therefore as the equivelent words are not found, it must mean the new word in the "Satanic Bible" is therefore wrong, another indication how flawed the thinking and logic is, as the people who write this stuff fail to understand that languages can not be translated identically word for word.

The fact that Chosenbyhim is not responding to my requests or responses, is again typical cult member behaviour, in that when challenged and exposed, the silence is deafening. Yes its best to ignore people who expose the flaws and hope they just grow bored and go away, to leave the cult member to suck in more unsuspecting victims.




Strongs:
The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon

Strong's Number: 01966
Original Word Word Origin
llyh from (01984) (in the sense of brightness)
Transliterated Word
Heylel TWOT - 499a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hay-lale' Noun Masculine
Definition
Lucifer = "light-bearer"

shining one, morning star, Lucifer
of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
(TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon


King James Word Usage - Total: 1
Lucifer 1
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
strong's exhaustive concordance of the bible:
H1966 הילל hêlēl from H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--lucifer.

the brown-driver-briggs hebrew and english lexicon:
הילל n.m. apell. shining one, epith. of king of Babylon, איך נפלת משמים ה' בן-שחר Is 1412 how art thou fallen, shining one, son of dawn! i.e. star of the morning. (Cf. As. muštilil, epith. of (Venus as) morning-star IIIR5760 OppJAS 1871,448 SchrSK 1874, 337 COTad loc.)
 
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Another serious problem with rendering this word (#1966 Haylale) as "morning star" is that Jesus Christ himself is called the morning star in Rev. 22:16 where he says: "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." The NIV and NASB make it possible to identify Satan with Jesus Christ. I believe this is Lucifer's ultimate game plan and that the new versions have taken a giant step forward in advancing Satan's deception.
UMMM Chosen,

Can you explain this please. Now the other day you had a problem with a Petra song in which the lyric site that I had used had a typo in the lyrics. Now you very clearly you said them saying son was not the same as saying Son. Now in the NIV

Isaiah 14

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you
[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

If son is not the same as Son how can you now say morning star is the same as Morning Star? If putting the one into capitals makes a difference,then how can you then turn around and say that it doesn't in the second one?
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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Its the same position as Antichrist or antichrist. It is a huge difference. SO yes Caps count. But of course, dont let that get in the way and spoil the cults teachings. No doubt theres a 5,000 word cut and paste response for that.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Its the same position as Antichrist or antichrist. It is a huge difference. SO yes Caps count. But of course, dont let that get in the way and spoil the cults teachings. No doubt theres a 5,000 word cut and paste response for that.
Why would I not be surprised by that? :p
 
S

sunshinelovin1700

Guest
I said that because often people do put the KJV up on a pedestal almost as if it was God Himself. I still use a KJV,with the NIV and the Greek interlinear. Part of what you need to realize when the KJV was translated ALL OF THE TRANSLATERS where from the church of England.

The Hebrew word that the KJV uses for Lucifer is not used as a proper name. The writers of the KJV did that it's not in the original Hebrew.

And again how do you when using the KJV deal with the passage from Job? That verse is taken from the KJV where they say morning stars.
Honestly never thought about it but now you got my wheels turning in a million different directions. :p I will have to study this a bit further before I form my opinion.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Honestly never thought about it but now you got my wheels turning in a million different directions. :p I will have to study this a bit further before I form my opinion.
See the question I have in all this is it the translation or is it the Holy Spirit that leads us into all truth?
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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UMMM Chosen,

Can you explain this please. Now the other day you had a problem with a Petra song in which the lyric site that I had used had a typo in the lyrics. Now you very clearly you said them saying son was not the same as saying Son. Now in the NIV

Isaiah 14

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you
[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

If son is not the same as Son how can you now say morning star is the same as Morning Star? If putting the one into capitals makes a difference,then how can you then turn around and say that it doesn't in the second one?
Sarah, it's simple. Especially if you take a moment to think this thing through. And yes, I will do my best to explain what you want me to in regard to this important and very serious issue.

Now I take it you read both excerpts, the one from David Daniels and also the one by Will Kinney.

So we understand that it has already been established that both of the words "morning" and "star" are not found in any Hebrew Text for Isaiah 14:12.

So that's the first problem and issue with the NIV rendering of Isaiah 14:12.

But the more serious issue with the rendering that the NIV gives in Isaiah 14:12 of morning star, is that Jesus Christ declares that He is the Morning Star in Revelation 22:16.

Now from my Bible Search software, when I looked up the number of times that morning star appears in the King James Bible. It showed that that very phrase only appears 2 times. Once in Revelation 2:28 and the last time in Revelation 22:16.

Now in the NIV, this same phrase appears 4 times.

And these are the verses where morning star appears in the NIV:

Isaiah 14:12, 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28, and Revelation 22:16.

Here is another thing that is interesting Sarah. The phrase morning star is not capitalized in the Authorized King James Bible. I looked it up in the search software. In fact, I looked up Morning Star, and I got back 0 results. Then I looked up Morning by itself, and again I got back 0 results.

The term Morning Star (capitalized) is found as that in the NIV. And it is only in Revelation 22:16.



Now I have a 2005 edition of the NIV in front of me. It is the Faith in Action Study Bible edition, which is the 2005 edition. Now don't get exited, I have only kept this corrupt version for the purpose of documentation. Documentation of errors, doctrinal errors, and mistranslations. And to show those errors to those who are seeking information on the Bible Version Issue. And that way people that I talk to about this issue can see the errors in the NIV for themselves

But getting back to what I was saying as I am looking at Isaiah 14:12 in this NIV, there is a little w right next to the term morning star and as I am checking the footnote, right next to that little w is a reference to 2 Peter 1:19. Here is the verse:

How you have fallen[v]from heaven,
O morning star,[w] son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
- Isaiah 14:12 (NIV© 1973, 1978, 1984, 2005 )

Footnotes:


v. Isa 34:4; Lk 10:8

w. 2Pe 1:19; Rev 2:28; 8:10; 9:1


So now; keep in mind, I am looking through the very footnotes and cross references in this NIV. Now I turn over to 2 Peter 1:19 in this NIV and let's see what it says.

And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light[a] shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star[b]rises in your heart. - 2 Peter 1:19 (NIV© 1973, 1978, 1984, 2005)

Footnotes:


  1. Ps 119:105
  2. Rev 22:16
"I, Jesus,[c]have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches.[d]I am the Root[e] and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."[f] - Revelation 22:16 (NIV© 1973, 1978, 1984, 2005 )
Footnotes:

a. 1Co 6:9, 10; Gal. 5:19-21; Col 3:5,6

c. Rev. 1:1

d. Rev. 1:4

e. Rev. 5:5


f. 2Pe 1:19;
Rev. 2:28


So from the NIV itself, in their footnotes, it is pretty clear who they are referring to when they say it was the morning star who fell from Heaven. Now of course, someone can try to explain this one away and try to justify the NIV once more, even after seeing this. But the facts are the facts. Their own footnotes shows what they are intentionally doing.

One more thing to note though Sarah, the NIV that I got these footnotes from was the 2005 edition. But I know that they are also in the NIV 1984 edition. So if you have a NIV 2011 edition, I doubt that those footnotes are in there.

But if you do have an old NIV (the 1984 edition) then I encourage you Sarah to look this stuff up on your own. Do your own study, go to Isaiah 14:12 in your NIV bible, that is if you have one. And look and see if they have any footnotes for that verse, then whatever footnotes they got, look up those cross references which they give you. And there you have it. Again, I am very sure that the NIV 1984 edition or even the 1978 edition has those very same footnotes which I listed in this post. So please check them out for yourself.

The footnotes in the NIV text in Isaiah 14:12 shows that they are replacing Lucifer with Jesus in the fall that takes place in Isaiah 14:12. So the NIV; by their own footnotes, say that it was the Lord Jesus who fell from Heaven in Isaiah 14:12. What blasphemy!

You can be assured of one thing Sarah; in the Day of Judgment, the translators of the NIV are going to give an account and answer for this.


 
Dec 26, 2012
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morning star appears in the King James Bible. It showed that that very phrase only appears 2 times. Once in Revelation 2:28 and the last time in Revelation 22:16.


Sorry Chosen,

But your software is off. There are 6 verses were the words morning star are used in both the KJV and the NIV.

Here are the six in the KJV



Bible Gateway

And again how do you deal with the passage from Job,unless one takes within the context of the passage and not just take the verse alone.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Sorry all,

I made a mistake (Copied the wrong verses) A bit past my bedtime.

These are the verse in the Authorized KJV There are 5 verses that have both words morning and star but only three that have the two together.



But again I ask what do you do about Job 38? And how do you go from one time saying there is a difference between son and Son and then go to saying there is NO difference between saying morning star and saying The Morning Star?
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
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Sorry Chosen,

But your software is off. There are 6 verses were the words morning star are used in both the KJV and the NIV.

Actually Sarah, it is not. My Search Software is very precise. morning star (singular) only appears twice in the Authorized Version. And morning stars (plural) appears once.

I was talking about morning star (singular) because that is what is being discussed here. The rendering of morning star. Not so much morning stars.