Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[crossnote]

Actually this argument has been going on since Christ was crucified. We have some of it reported in Acts. The question comes down to if we have a brand new religion in Christ, did Christ destroy the OT God, or did Christ build on it. Christ said he built. In Matt 5, Christ listed several of the laws saying "you have been told" then Christ said that the law still stands but "I tell you" and each time we were to obey also with our heart and mind. So what of the OT was destroyed? Christ says nothing was. The blood of animals was replaced by Christ's blood. The temple wasn't needed any more but its functions were still valid. The HS was freely given to those who asked, and it helped with understanding including the law but it didn't destroy it helped and expanded understanding.

The first 500 years of the growth of Christianity was spent in severing the worship of God as it had been to be a completely new way of worship. By 300 years it was illegal to be connected in any way with how God was worshipped before. That was not because of scripture, it was because of man. Jews decided Christ was not the Messiah, that was man's decision. God had created and used Jews to train the world about Him, so he favored them. Gentiles said they were the loyal ones, it followed that they were the favored ones now, God would repay them for loyalty. It was a mess.

If we look strictly to God for answers, we find God created man and wants man to be saved, everyone. He wants that for Jew and gentile as the same people, except allow Him to feel the ones He spent those thousands of years on are special, and let Him judge all about them. In God's eyes, Christ is at His right hand and part of Him, eternal. Christ is in the OT and the NT, and in God's eyes He is "I am".

Now, there is a group of people who would like to include all of scripture in their worship. They worship and believe in exactly the same way the NT explains we are to do it. They would like to study and listen to the God principles shown to the Jews in the OT and follow how it was completed by Christ, not with the idea that Christ destroyed.

The organized church caught on to that this group of people listen and study about ways God suggested we worship Him. Some of these ways have been taught as the way to salvation when the facts are that Christ only is the way to salvation. The book of Galatians tells how God feels about what is most important. So the organized church is up in arms. They say you may NOT worship God as God suggested, some people have done it for the wrong reason so just don't do it at all. They say that God is completely against what he taught, it has nothing to do with salvation, God changed His mind about anything He said. We have a new God and a new way. I don't think that is so, or that is what God is saying. God says don't ever think it is anything other than Christ who gives salvation and forgiveness. That is not saying that you may not worship in any way suggested by God, ever.

We do not have a brand new religion in Christ, cutting ourselves off from the Father. Christ is our way to growth.

answer me simply,under the Messiah was the Levitical priesthood with all it's precepts replaced or just added to and clarified?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

answer me simply,under the Messiah was the Levitical priesthood with all it's precepts replaced or just added to and clarified?

I would like to add to this another question to your 2 if you do not mind.

Was it fullfilled in Jesus, replaced, or just added to and clarified?

 

[JaumeJ]

The priesthood is after the order of Malchizedek, eternal, with no further need of sacrifices of blood for all has been paid once for all in Yeshua. Yeshua is the King of Righteousness, King of Peace........ Praise Yahweh!

 

[RickShafer]

From reading her post I think she answered it.

"God says don't ever think it is anything other than Christ who gives salvation and forgiveness."

"Now, there is a group of people who would like to include all of scripture in their worship. They worship and believe in exactly the same way the NT explains we are to do it. They would like to study and listen to the God principles shown to the Jews in the OT and follow how it was completed by Christ, not with the idea that Christ destroyed. "

"The organized church caught on to that this group of people listen and study about ways God suggested we worship Him. Some of these ways have been taught as the way to salvation when the facts are that Christ only is the way to salvation."

 

[crossnote]

No one on this particular thread is elevating the Jews.
Some still have a hatred.
It seems so deeply ingrained that it is as if it is a sin passed down through generations with some.

Do you want to know the truth?
The whole truth?
What we are witnessing is a reaction to the false amalgamation of Judaic and Christian religions.
- NOTICE I SAID RELIGIONS.
The Hebrew Roots movement IS a created endeavor to combine the two RELIGIONS.
Totally contrived.
But it does not mean all Hebraic study is verbotten.
It is only dangerous to those who say the law will save them, - (very few, and no real Christians).
But the more insipid danger lurking is the utter hatred for all things Jewish.
Folks,.......we've been down this road before.
It does not end well.
Don't be played so easily like a banjo.
Can't you see problem-reaction-solution? Or Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis?
It's the old Hegelian dialectic all over again.
Don't be played ether way?
Love the Jews. (Don't elevate them to godhood status, don't hate them - no 'final solution',
just follow the commands and love them, just like you would love any other group of people.

And don't hate the law! (It doesn't save you but it is valuable for reproof and correction) - Every serious bible student should know this.

The Church of Jesus Christ is hidden under His sheltering Arms.

Who do you think the redeemed are to be so afraid that they'd be plucked out of His hand?

Will His church go lost? Will not he leave the 99 for the one?

I agree about the false amalgamation but who is hating Jews on this thread and who is against studying the o.t. and it's customs?

 

[RickShafer]

Ha!
- There were some streams of antisemitism.
- - A natural reaction to the movement.
- - - As par for the dialectic.

 

[Abiding]

I agree about the false amalgamation but who is hating Jews on this thread and who is against studying the o.t. and it's customs?

ive also wondered that

 

[crossnote]

From reading her post I think she answered it.

"God says don't ever think it is anything other than Christ who gives salvation and forgiveness."

"Now, there is a group of people who would like to include all of scripture in their worship. They worship and believe in exactly the same way the NT explains we are to do it. They would like to study and listen to the God principles shown to the Jews in the OT and follow how it was completed by Christ, not with the idea that Christ destroyed. "

"The organized church caught on to that this group of people listen and study about ways God suggested we worship Him. Some of these ways have been taught as the way to salvation when the facts are that Christ only is the way to salvation."

The point is that ''all of Scripture " CANNOT ''be included in their worship'' since the Mosaic covenant goes hand in hand with the Levitical Priesthood and all it's precepts and regulations concerning worship. Which has been replaced by an Eternal Priesthood. See Heb chap 7.

 

[JaumeJ]

All of the Scripture can be included for study. There is wisdom, instruction and prophesy in even the laws. As for all the ceremonial laws, the endless ordinances and statutes, Yeshua, by His example and teaching, demonstrated what is no longer, starting with His being the Lamb of Yahweh Whose Blood keeps the angel of death away from all who believe Him. He is our Passover. He teaches us mercy in the place of punishement, the curse of the law.

Just this morning in Proverbs I read again how no one should think in his heart to repay his neighbor's evil with like action, and this hardly sounds like what most people get from the law, yet it is taught in the Old Testament. People do not pay attention, for if they did, they would see grace to come in the Old Testament, and much grace during the times of the Old Testament. Yeshua teaches this to all who come to Him in spirit and truth, amen.

 

[RickShafer]

The point is that ''all of Scripture " CANNOT ''be included in their worship'' since the Mosaic covenant goes hand in hand with the Levitical Priesthood and all it's precepts and regulations concerning worship. Which has been replaced by an Eternal Priesthood. See Heb chap 7.

Yes it can.
Are you kidding?
How are you going to see the price He paid unless you recognize the sacrifices he was fulfilling for all the sins of all His people?
Do you think that is lightly passed over in worship?
- Not mine.

 

[crossnote]

Yes it can.
Are you kidding?
How are you going to see the price He paid unless you recognize the sacrifices he was fulfilling for all the sins of all His people?
Do you think that is lightly passed over in worship?
- Not mine.

C'mon let's stop playing games. I am talking about the incorporation in their worship of the Sabbaths, Feasts, dietetic laws which many devotedly try to follow and if you don't your treated as a second class member, albeit subtly. Perhaps you haven't had first hand experience.

 

[RedTent]

answer me simply,under the Messiah was the Levitical priesthood with all it's precepts replaced or just added to and clarified?

I don't think any of those verbs explains it, but perhaps replaced it the best. They didn't have the completed Christ when the priesthood was put in place, so the priesthood was used to explain it to people. I found that by studying the ancient priesthood it gives some details about what the real thing is about.

 

[RedTent]

C'mon let's stop playing games. I am talking about the incorporation in their worship of the Sabbaths, Feasts, dietetic laws which many devotedly try to follow and if you don't your treated as a second class member, albeit subtly. Perhaps you haven't had first hand experience.

This is the heart of the matter, the reason the established church is up in arms against them. I have incorporated some of these rituals in my worship and my church home is united against it, so is my personal family. I've done a LOT of study and prayer. Here is what I found.

The possible bad, first. If it is used for salvation instead of using Christ, it is a path to death. If it is used as a path to keeping Christ and God a part of every minute of our day to day living, it is a path to more abundant life.

It can be used as a way to judge others. My church is doing that with me. We can't blame the judging on the actions being judged, it is apart from that. If you join a church that celebrates the feasts and you don't want to, you are going to feel left out and they are going to wonder why not join the party. Just like the people judging me in my church, there will be people who sin in that church by judging.

I can't watch people who use these rituals as part of their life because I don't know any, so I got books about it. Almost every life was helped by living this way, it is not a downer in the main but a key to productivity and happiness, but in the same way our church family helps our life. It is Christ and who we are that is the real part of it, we just use the church family to help. If we said we are saved because we go to church it wouldn't be right but that doesn't make going to church wrong. It is the same way with hand washing and prayer when we get up, or any of the rituals.

God says he is going to unite and make Jews and gentiles one. Jews are against it, saying we have a false God, they only know Christ as God tells of Him in the OT. We say all Judaism is a false God in the same way. God is truth.

 

[crossnote]

I don't think any of those verbs explains it, but perhaps replaced it the best. They didn't have the completed Christ when the priesthood was put in place, so the priesthood was used to explain it to people. I found that by studying the ancient priesthood it gives some details about what the real thing is about.

Paul is pretty straight forward about a change in priesthood and law. No mincing or blending...a change is a change is a change.

Hebrews 7:11-16 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

 

[Grandpa]

Back up just for a moment. The "Hebrews" were waiting for the Messiah. Some believed Him, otherwise there would never have been Twelve Apostles and synagogues all around the then civilized world where people, "Hebrews," were abuzz about the Messiah's advent in Israel. It was not until after He rose to the Right Hand of Power that He gave the order to give the Gospel to the nations. Incidentally, the Gospel of Yeshua is all about the faith of Abraham and Grace.
As regarding understanding squat about anything, our learning comes from "Hebrews" who wrote down the Word of Yahweh, God.
Please do not speak against our root, for we are grafted in place of some who did not believe. If some of the original branches were taken off for us to be grafted in, do not think the same cannot happan to any of us. Worship the Word, the Word is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit....One, amen.

Your first instinct wasn't to address the points that the poster made. Your first instinct was to defend what you love at all costs. The old jewish way.

There was nothing in that post by creationtutor that wasn't true. In fact, this whole response by you should show you that you aren't interested in truth. You are interested in defending the shadow. Why would you say you follow the Holy Spirit but still walk in the shadow? If iron sharpens and iron and you truly are interested in fellowship shouldn't you be concerned by your response?

I would say this is dangerous because there are many Christians who don't understand they aren't under the law. They have a skewed view of the gospel and their liberty in Christ. What easier way to lead them on the side-track than to offer "extra" blessing and wisdom?

BTW, look up the word Hallelujah and compare it to the word Judah. Let me know what you find...

 

[Shiloah]

It has been helpful for me to include an online link in helping others to understand nuances of words, etymologies and other customs, but to give an opinion on a specific theology and back it up with the opinion of someone else is only giving honor to flesh.

The Word is perfect, and the Holy Spirit gives understanding, no named framework of thinking can possibly improve on the Word. Also, it is not valid to convince the family in Yeshua of who is a better beliver than another. It is pure intellectualism for intellectualism's sake and not wisdom from on high.

I'd give ten big likes to this post if I could.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children.

 

[Shiloah]

Your first instinct wasn't to address the points that the poster made. Your first instinct was to defend what you love at all costs. The old jewish way.

There was nothing in that post by creationtutor that wasn't true. In fact, this whole response by you should show you that you aren't interested in truth. You are interested in defending the shadow. Why would you say you follow the Holy Spirit but still walk in the shadow? If iron sharpens and iron and you truly are interested in fellowship shouldn't you be concerned by your response?

I would say this is dangerous because there are many Christians who don't understand they aren't under the law. They have a skewed view of the gospel and their liberty in Christ. What easier way to lead them on the side-track than to offer "extra" blessing and wisdom?

BTW, look up the word Hallelujah and compare it to the word Judah. Let me know what you find...

This a personal attack. "You only said what you said because you don't care about the truth."

How about sticking to the discussion and not make personal attacks when you disagree with a post?

 

[JaumeJ]

The op is Hebrew Roots, not the Hebrew language. The English transliteration, hallelujah, means praise Yah or praise Yahweh, while Judah, means the same. Hebrew uses many terms for the same or similar meanings.

If you would like, I will go over a Psalm with you in Hebrew. They are a true blessing in any language, but to read in the original language, the one Yeshua used in the Temple, is thrilling.

Your charge leveleded is duly noted. It may behoove you to read the thread beforehand though.

 

[Grandpa]

The op is Hebrew Roots, not the Hebrew language. The English transliteration, hallelujah, means praise Yah or praise Yahweh, while Judah, means the same. Hebrew uses many terms for the same or similar meanings.

If you would like, I will go over a Psalm with you in Hebrew. They are a true blessing in any language, but to read in the original language, the one Yeshua used in the Temple, is thrilling.

Your charge leveleded is duly noted. It may behoove you to read the thread beforehand though.

Maybe you have no ability to address the points in a post. Deflection, feigned ignorance, feigned offense.

My charge leveled? I asked you questions. I'm trying to get this into the light. I'm not trying to offend you. But if you are offended by my questions perhaps you should look closer at the question and not at who is asking.

You're the one that brought up the Hebrew language... Now you say that Hallelujah means the EXACT same thing as Judah?

Its starting to look like we see things from an entirely different angle... lol

 

[JaumeJ]

Here is just one of your charges: Your first instinct wasn't to address the points that the poster made. Your first instinct was to defend what you love at all costs. The old jewish way.
The person to whom it is intended was content with my reply, also there was a like optioned, maybe more, you may look.
Another of your leveled charges is by implication I do not know what I am posting when I give you out of the generosity of my heart the meanings of words in Hebrew. Even when I out source the information, your tendency is to deflect and ignore.
If you wish, we could study Hebrew together, but there is some difficulty being online. I do not have a structured course other than several grammar books, many pdf's, some dictionaries, and various Hebrew texts for study from the Word.
Here you change the reality of what I posted: The English transliteration, hallelujah, means praise Yah or praise Yahweh, while Judah, means the same. Hebrew uses many terms for the same or similar meanings.
Are you not able to see the words "the same or similar meanings?"
I know the nuance of enhanced meaning for Judah, it also implies confession, but I did not wish to take up your time with details. Besides, I do not think you are interested at this point. Your only interest appears to be to prove me wrong about something or another.
Yeshua loves you, and I do to, but love does not include hiding the truth. That would be lying, and the Father does not like that at all.