The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification
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if your refering to me. I am not young. And I have been a christian and have studied the word of God for over 30 years.
And this is a bible discussion forum. Women are free to help any way they can and speak their mind. so do not be afraid..
Your assuming I did not. You would be wrong in your assumptions. I even posted the aspect of just me-s post i was refering to just a few posts ago.. So you should see where i was coming from.
1. I was responding to the issue of what is wrong with america, and what we need to do to have repentnance in america and get back to God. Evidently you have not read my posts either, or you would have seen this.
In particular. again, I was refering to this post.
As you can see in the bolded parts. This is the part I was disagreeing with. And my counterpoints to those things were given.
lol.
You think I am not advocating what james said? I am showing what james said. What God say about us? What do we need? Who can fill that need?
Niether one of you showed how I was wrong in what I said. You gave your view. I gave mine, You state I am wrong and judgmental. Yet you can not show me how or why, or where I erred?
Well, then this church you should walk away from. I grew up in a baptist church. and none I know of would have put up with this. Each induvidual church has their issues, and I would not consider this a problem church wide.
I was asking about which denomination teach this.. Induvidual local churches we have no say over, we must turn them over to God.
And this is a bible discussion forum. Women are free to help any way they can and speak their mind. so do not be afraid..
Your assuming I did not. You would be wrong in your assumptions. I even posted the aspect of just me-s post i was refering to just a few posts ago.. So you should see where i was coming from.
1. I was responding to the issue of what is wrong with america, and what we need to do to have repentnance in america and get back to God. Evidently you have not read my posts either, or you would have seen this.
In particular. again, I was refering to this post.
As you can see in the bolded parts. This is the part I was disagreeing with. And my counterpoints to those things were given.
lol.
You think I am not advocating what james said? I am showing what james said. What God say about us? What do we need? Who can fill that need?
Niether one of you showed how I was wrong in what I said. You gave your view. I gave mine, You state I am wrong and judgmental. Yet you can not show me how or why, or where I erred?
Well, then this church you should walk away from. I grew up in a baptist church. and none I know of would have put up with this. Each induvidual church has their issues, and I would not consider this a problem church wide.
I was asking about which denomination teach this.. Induvidual local churches we have no say over, we must turn them over to God.
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I READ THEM. UNDERSTOOD THEM. AND HAVE NOW TWICE POSTED THE SECTION I WAS DISAGREEING WITH, AND I GAVE MY COUNTER POINT.
Is anyone one going to give me the common courtesy of saying how I was wrong. or is everyone going to continue to judge me?? In other words. do as i say, not what I do. that makes you hypocrites..
Is anyone one going to give me the common courtesy of saying how I was wrong. or is everyone going to continue to judge me?? In other words. do as i say, not what I do. that makes you hypocrites..
OH YES! i can see it now!
all the non-saturday sabbath people are going to rise up and kill everybody who is home on saturday PRETENDING they are keeping the Old Covenant Sabbath handed down at Sinai.
after all...they've taken the mark of the beast by living in the Liberty and Fullness of CHRIST
with Whom they were buried in baptism and raised in His resurrection.
seriously. good luck with the death angel passing over you because he sees you observing days and months and feasts and years.
all the non-saturday sabbath people are going to rise up and kill everybody who is home on saturday PRETENDING they are keeping the Old Covenant Sabbath handed down at Sinai.
after all...they've taken the mark of the beast by living in the Liberty and Fullness of CHRIST
with Whom they were buried in baptism and raised in His resurrection.
seriously. good luck with the death angel passing over you because he sees you observing days and months and feasts and years.
this is really simple:
Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.
Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.
E
Yes we are.
and it not because we are not following some moral law. It is because we are self centered. and trying to fill that void. The world needs to know what fills that void. And then they will find the means to follow the ways of Christ.
No one will ever get to this point by following some moral law. The jews spent 2000 years proving this fact.
Well, young man, and you are young (you remind me of what my three children used to say when they were in their teens – they knew it all), I read your post, and am doing as you requested, as I did earlier. Furthermore, I am disappointed that you are so caught up in, sorry to say, your own thoughts and can’t see that you have been answered in spite of your attempts to derail the thread. I think you could learn some things if I told you of the lessons I’ve learned in my 62 years on this earth (42 of which have been as a believer in Christ and the reality of being one of His own) and the circumstances under which I learned them, but it is apparent that you will listen to no one. I confess, I have a fault and that is that I sometimes get very aggravated to the point of being angry when people are so “bullheaded” that they cannot slow down enough to listen to someone with more experience and a longer Christian walk, so I apologize if I sound a little too sharp. For your own benefit, please learn to value the thoughts of your elders, in the faith especially, rather than do as society without God has taught you in America’s 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century schools, churches who love and preach a “greasy grace” with no responsibility on our part, and the overwhelming “I’m so important you better listen to what I say” have taught. I have noticed that these entities have also taught the young to not bother respecting their elders. It’s a darn shame.
Have a lovely day.
Have a lovely day.
E
Wow. And this is supposed to sound christianlike? And you expect people to listen to you? I had a response to this. But figured instead I would show some humility and keep my thoughts which have no bearing to this chat to myself. However. If you think someone will listen to you with this attitude. You are sadly mistaken, You do not know me from a whole in the ground..
1. He said what he thought the problem with america was.. Am I correct?
2. I countered with my view, and what I thought it was.
Niether one of you have responded to what I THOUGHT THE PROBLEM IN AMERICA IS. and WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO GET US BACK TO GOD.. You can say you have all yo uwant, but you have not. All you have done is judge me, and say I do not understand what he is saying.
news flash. I grew up thinking as he did. I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE IS THINKING!!
I have.. can you show me where I was not just judged, and my points were responded to?? I have given yourself and just me this courtesy, But unless I missed it, I have not found one shred of rebuttle to what I said.
I am disapointed you think you have done something, when the whole room knows you have not..
1st off. One thing you SHOULD have learned in that time, is when you want to tell someone you disagree with them. you
1. Do not just say they are wrong, without showing them point by point where they are wrong
2. You don;t judge them
3. You try to understand where they are coming from.
I said america has a whole. Not once have either of you said you agree or disagree and why
I said america's problem is greed and self centerdness (as is the result of ALL SIN) not once have either of you said you agree disagree, or said why either way
I said America needs is hope. Again, nothing from either of you.
And you WONDER WHY I AM GETTING SO ANGRY???
lol. longevity does not mean anything. If you can't even humble yourself to see what someone is saying, and why they are saying it, All your longevity means nothing. I could say the exact same thing to you. Again, You do not know me, My circumstances. What I have been through, or where I am in my walk, You base all your arguments on assumptions. which is getting you into trouble!
lol.. Greasy grace again. Here we go. You think I teach or am saying this is ok?
Again, You do not know me at all.
When you feel like talking in a civilized unjudgmental attitude, and want to show me how I am wrong in my assumptions. I will be willing to listen to your argiments, POtherwise you have done nothing but further alienate yourself from this discussion.
1. He said what he thought the problem with america was.. Am I correct?
2. I countered with my view, and what I thought it was.
Niether one of you have responded to what I THOUGHT THE PROBLEM IN AMERICA IS. and WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO GET US BACK TO GOD.. You can say you have all yo uwant, but you have not. All you have done is judge me, and say I do not understand what he is saying.
news flash. I grew up thinking as he did. I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE IS THINKING!!
I have.. can you show me where I was not just judged, and my points were responded to?? I have given yourself and just me this courtesy, But unless I missed it, I have not found one shred of rebuttle to what I said.
I am disapointed you think you have done something, when the whole room knows you have not..
1st off. One thing you SHOULD have learned in that time, is when you want to tell someone you disagree with them. you
1. Do not just say they are wrong, without showing them point by point where they are wrong
2. You don;t judge them
3. You try to understand where they are coming from.
I said america has a whole. Not once have either of you said you agree or disagree and why
I said america's problem is greed and self centerdness (as is the result of ALL SIN) not once have either of you said you agree disagree, or said why either way
I said America needs is hope. Again, nothing from either of you.
And you WONDER WHY I AM GETTING SO ANGRY???
lol. longevity does not mean anything. If you can't even humble yourself to see what someone is saying, and why they are saying it, All your longevity means nothing. I could say the exact same thing to you. Again, You do not know me, My circumstances. What I have been through, or where I am in my walk, You base all your arguments on assumptions. which is getting you into trouble!
lol.. Greasy grace again. Here we go. You think I teach or am saying this is ok?
Again, You do not know me at all.
When you feel like talking in a civilized unjudgmental attitude, and want to show me how I am wrong in my assumptions. I will be willing to listen to your argiments, POtherwise you have done nothing but further alienate yourself from this discussion.
The following are my comments which are argued against by (supposedly) loving Christians:
If we were to abide by the moral part that we are responsible for, in truth, as it was first given, (the moral persuasions thereof), we not only would be in the will of God as a nation, but also be knit together in brotherly love and respect. And our nation wouldn't be in the critical mess that it is in today.
Being a vet of foreign wars, seeing the bloodshed, screaming, crying, stinking blood and sulfur, does anybody think that I don’t love this country, and the inhabitants? I know that God’s word, INCLUDING the morality, and precepts of the law causes a country to be blessed. God says so. Why? In God’s name, would we not want what is best for our country? Why should I stand by and watch our country fall? Just give me one good reason. Did I watch my fellow comrades in arms die in vain? What is the problem with wanting God’s word to be the forefront of our way of thinking? To reject the statement at the beginning of this post is to spit at my fellow soldiers’ deaths just like the hippies did when I can home. You don’t know the pain. Stop and think.
If we were to abide by the moral part that we are responsible for, in truth, as it was first given, (the moral persuasions thereof), we not only would be in the will of God as a nation, but also be knit together in brotherly love and respect. And our nation wouldn't be in the critical mess that it is in today.
Being a vet of foreign wars, seeing the bloodshed, screaming, crying, stinking blood and sulfur, does anybody think that I don’t love this country, and the inhabitants? I know that God’s word, INCLUDING the morality, and precepts of the law causes a country to be blessed. God says so. Why? In God’s name, would we not want what is best for our country? Why should I stand by and watch our country fall? Just give me one good reason. Did I watch my fellow comrades in arms die in vain? What is the problem with wanting God’s word to be the forefront of our way of thinking? To reject the statement at the beginning of this post is to spit at my fellow soldiers’ deaths just like the hippies did when I can home. You don’t know the pain. Stop and think.
E
And this is EXACTLY what I was trying to discuss. I am not trying to diss your patriotism. I am retired military myself.
I am just trying to show you a better way. I grew up learning your way, all i did is see people walk away form god, or never want anything to do with God because of all the judgmental, holier than thou attitudes.
But evidently you have no desire to discuss this.
Again, We learned from Isreal. Trying to be good by following the moral law is impossible.
We have to find out WHY PEOPLE are breaking the moral law before we can help them.
Just saying. "thou shalt not" is not going to help them, it is going to cause them to walk away from you. Because your not getting to the heart of the issue.
Thats why Christ went to the sinner, to help them, not judge them. And why the pharisee could never help the sinner!
I am just trying to show you a better way. I grew up learning your way, all i did is see people walk away form god, or never want anything to do with God because of all the judgmental, holier than thou attitudes.
But evidently you have no desire to discuss this.
Again, We learned from Isreal. Trying to be good by following the moral law is impossible.
We have to find out WHY PEOPLE are breaking the moral law before we can help them.
Just saying. "thou shalt not" is not going to help them, it is going to cause them to walk away from you. Because your not getting to the heart of the issue.
Thats why Christ went to the sinner, to help them, not judge them. And why the pharisee could never help the sinner!
Didn't you tell me not to post to you???
And here you are posting to me. lol.
Satan gave you the sunday sabbath you love so well. He even prompted you to begin a thread about how glorious sunday is.
We know that Satan will enforce a law on the people. The Bible says so.
We also know Satan wouldn't enforce one of Gods Commandments on mankind.
But, we can pretty much bet that Satan will impose a law that will oppose one of Gods commandments.
Saturday the 7th day or Sunday the 1st day.
Which day do you suppose satan would enforce?
Don't you have a thread to tend to?
And here you are posting to me. lol.
Satan gave you the sunday sabbath you love so well. He even prompted you to begin a thread about how glorious sunday is.
We know that Satan will enforce a law on the people. The Bible says so.
We also know Satan wouldn't enforce one of Gods Commandments on mankind.
But, we can pretty much bet that Satan will impose a law that will oppose one of Gods commandments.
Saturday the 7th day or Sunday the 1st day.
Which day do you suppose satan would enforce?
Don't you have a thread to tend to?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
The "Law" has been fulfilled and changed by the NT. Animal sacrifices, feats days, sabbath days, dietray laws, etc. are not spiritually binding. There may be good "common sense" in abstaining from pork, oysters, etc. Yet, this is all. We are not to judge.
E. Lev. 23:27-32 shows a holy "sabbath" day.
The day of atonement was so holy that one was put to death for working on it. Yet all sabbatarians believe this has "passed away". Thus, a day being set aside as "holy" by God may pass away as a requirement! The "holiness" of a day therefore has no inner worth that means it must endure for all ages. Furthermore, holy vessels, holy ark, holy water, holy ointment, etc. have all passed away in the NT age. So has the "holy sabbath".
F. The weekly sabbath is given as the chief of ceremonial convocations:
Lev.23:1-44. It is thus joined with the other "ceremonies" that have likewise passed away. We have "sabbaths" in the 7th day, the 7th month, the 7th year (Lev.25) and the year of jubilee. It is unreasonable to make the 7th "day" binding, while ignoring the remainder of the whole scale!
G. If the sabbath is binding, then it must be obeyed properly.
Where is the evidence that we are free to change these specifics if it is indeed binding?:
Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
H. Sabbatarians assume that our calendar is correct and that our Saturday is indeed the "7th day".
For legal purposed, the calendar was changed by Pope Gregory in 1582, When the SDAs observe Saturday by the Gregorian Calendar, they do not have a clue if they are on the seventh day according to Moses' calendar. This makes their claims to be right with God a mockery of their own intellect. They lack historians wise enough, or with testosterone enough, to bell the cat with the SDA denomination on this one. It is to laugh.
Seventh Day Adventism-- SDA, SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISM, Heretic of Works Gospel Salvation.
etc etc etc
The "Law" has been fulfilled and changed by the NT. Animal sacrifices, feats days, sabbath days, dietray laws, etc. are not spiritually binding. There may be good "common sense" in abstaining from pork, oysters, etc. Yet, this is all. We are not to judge.
E. Lev. 23:27-32 shows a holy "sabbath" day.
The day of atonement was so holy that one was put to death for working on it. Yet all sabbatarians believe this has "passed away". Thus, a day being set aside as "holy" by God may pass away as a requirement! The "holiness" of a day therefore has no inner worth that means it must endure for all ages. Furthermore, holy vessels, holy ark, holy water, holy ointment, etc. have all passed away in the NT age. So has the "holy sabbath".
F. The weekly sabbath is given as the chief of ceremonial convocations:
Lev.23:1-44. It is thus joined with the other "ceremonies" that have likewise passed away. We have "sabbaths" in the 7th day, the 7th month, the 7th year (Lev.25) and the year of jubilee. It is unreasonable to make the 7th "day" binding, while ignoring the remainder of the whole scale!
G. If the sabbath is binding, then it must be obeyed properly.
Where is the evidence that we are free to change these specifics if it is indeed binding?:
Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Ex 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
H. Sabbatarians assume that our calendar is correct and that our Saturday is indeed the "7th day".
For legal purposed, the calendar was changed by Pope Gregory in 1582, When the SDAs observe Saturday by the Gregorian Calendar, they do not have a clue if they are on the seventh day according to Moses' calendar. This makes their claims to be right with God a mockery of their own intellect. They lack historians wise enough, or with testosterone enough, to bell the cat with the SDA denomination on this one. It is to laugh.
Seventh Day Adventism-- SDA, SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISM, Heretic of Works Gospel Salvation.
etc etc etc
B
Faith leads us to do the wil of God, to love, to give etc and these are works with faith. Works of the law are following the
letter of the law which is impossible in OT law. The two most important comandments are "love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your might. And the second is like it in that we love our neighbor as ourselves. When we are of faith, this will show in all we do which are works of faith.
letter of the law which is impossible in OT law. The two most important comandments are "love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and with all your might. And the second is like it in that we love our neighbor as ourselves. When we are of faith, this will show in all we do which are works of faith.
Now to go back to the beginning in what I was TRYING to say [h=2]The works of the law of righteousness and works by faith to justification[/h]should work together, and complement each other in God's perfect will. If they can't seem to do that, then there is a mix of false religion, and a distortion of the truth. That was the totality of all that I was saying. Wasn't very hard to understand was it? The again, it might be for some.