-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Again, the disciples were already saved before Pentecost. That is obvious, for Jesus had completed His Father's will. Nothing was left for Him to do.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was way after Jesus went back to Heaven.
Acts 2:15-18 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [SUP]18 [/SUP]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Not one word about salvation in these verses.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was way after Jesus went back to Heaven.
Acts 2:15-18 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [SUP]18 [/SUP]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Not one word about salvation in these verses.
E
what does this have to do with anything. Abraham was saved before Christ died also. Jesus said he must leave before the HS comes, But he will send them. he also said they would be baptized by the spirit not many days from then. At that point, All people who are saved are baptized with the spirit.
Nope. But alot of words about what one gets when he is ANNOINTED by the spirit. (gifts given)
The HS does many things.
so tell me. If I was baptized into the death and burial and body of Christ, Who baptized me into those things??
Nope. But alot of words about what one gets when he is ANNOINTED by the spirit. (gifts given)
The HS does many things.
so tell me. If I was baptized into the death and burial and body of Christ, Who baptized me into those things??
Stephen. . .yes the disciples were saved before Pentecost because of their faith in Jesus Christ. . . .But were they born again of the Spirit? Being born of the Spirit would result in the indwelling of the holy spirit and the holy spirit (the Comforter) was not given until Jesus Christ ascended; which is what they manifested on the day of Pentecost. (John 7:39)
I am not saying that water baptism is non essential but John and Jesus said that "John baptized with water BUT Jesus would baptize in holy spirit. What does the word "but" do. . .it sets in contrast that which was said before. . That's why they were told to tarry in the city of Jerusalem till they be filled with "power from on high" which is what a person has when they are indwelt with the holy spirit. Power to witness, power to help them defeat the wiles of the devil. Water baptism is a public declaration of what you have done on the inside: confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God raised him from the dead. . .become born again of the Spirit, indwelling of the Spirit and therefore being baptized in the Spirit. The way I see it. . .water only washes the outside of something BUT the baptism of holy spirit washes that which is on the inside that which defiles the man. . .For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within and defile the man. (Mark 8:21-23) This is what Jesus said to those that were complaining about the disciples not washing their hands. . . "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."
Power from on high = baptized in the holy spirit = receiving the gift of holy spirit = being indwelt (born again) by the Spirit
Paul states that there is ONE baptism. . .so which one is it?
I am not saying that water baptism is non essential but John and Jesus said that "John baptized with water BUT Jesus would baptize in holy spirit. What does the word "but" do. . .it sets in contrast that which was said before. . That's why they were told to tarry in the city of Jerusalem till they be filled with "power from on high" which is what a person has when they are indwelt with the holy spirit. Power to witness, power to help them defeat the wiles of the devil. Water baptism is a public declaration of what you have done on the inside: confessed Jesus as Lord and believed God raised him from the dead. . .become born again of the Spirit, indwelling of the Spirit and therefore being baptized in the Spirit. The way I see it. . .water only washes the outside of something BUT the baptism of holy spirit washes that which is on the inside that which defiles the man. . .For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within and defile the man. (Mark 8:21-23) This is what Jesus said to those that were complaining about the disciples not washing their hands. . . "If any man have ears to hear, let him hear."
Power from on high = baptized in the holy spirit = receiving the gift of holy spirit = being indwelt (born again) by the Spirit
Paul states that there is ONE baptism. . .so which one is it?
there is a lot here, praying for you to take the time to reaqd it might be worth it your choice it is free.
Before the cross, John the Baptist said these things and no public water Baptism had ever occurred prior to the testament about Christ's coming. and more than one witness to what John said
Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
Then after Christ had gotten Baptist and the Spirit of God the Father came upon him, he went out and was tested by Satan, then the ministry began of the kingdom of heaven is near things like:
[h=3]Matthew 5[/h]King James Version (KJV)
5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
He did all sorts of miracles, even raising the dead back to life as Lazarus.
He did the Job that he was manifested to do and that was to bring us a new covenant of Love to all, not sects, not I am right and you are wrong, to bring us all together through love in respecting each others free will as God does. The only time I ever seen God get angry is when others take away others free will.
Okay Christ did all he came to do and proof in who he is were in the miracles and love he extolled to all the downtrodden people in his day. Never once did he claim self-righteousness.
So after the death and resurrection of the cross we are in a new Covenant being Baptized by God without water as was John did for repentance, after the resurrection lets see what new is taken place
Acts 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Then came Pentecost, so it scripture stating the new is coming before Pentecost took place?
Then even though Peter insisted on water Baptism in many a scripture shown see what is said after Acts 10 when they received the Spirit Baptism before water baptism
Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have
Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
So it does not matter if one gets water Baptized to me, and is a good conscience towards God if that is the motive of the person getting this done in whatever denomination they choose.
The reason I say this is because unless God by the free gift of God does the Baptism, which God does, and has done as shown in Pentecost did, yet this does not mean one has to speak in an unknown tongue, because to tell the truth at Pentecost they did not speak in unknown tongues, the tongues were known of the others their that Peter did not know, and the Holy Spirit spoke through Peter to them of the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of the Holy Spirit, and they believed and were saved, then they were water Baptized as what had become a tradition of the disciples when they knew Christ in the flesh, yet now after ascension known only in the Spirit, not flesh any more.
Now man has adopte4d many traditions calling them new and is a commandment to do. When anything that is a commandment that one has to do, negates free will, and God will never negate free will, yet people do.
I hope and prey you choose God to believe in as when Christ went to the cross he died for the sin of the whole world in order to bring us to his Father made perfect before him by belief:
John 1:29 [ John Testifies About Jesus ] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
How is it possible to obey him? Born again of the Spirit of God by God by the cross
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[h=3]Colossians 1:22-23[/h]New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
[h=3]John 16:9[/h]New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]about sin, because people do not believe in me;
So if one is convicted of sin and seeks to find truth that he took it all away at the cross and one believes this then God by the operation of has born you again in his Spirit the same as God did for Christ
Rom 6 a good chapter to see what God did but here is this, by belief in God you are baptized into the death of Christ and thus made alive to God by the resurrection of Christ
[h=3]Romans 6:4[/h]New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
This is all God's doing and man has had nothing to do with it, yet still looks to take credit for what God has done, by all kinds of self will worshipping when in fact God can only today be worshipped in Spirit and truth
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
So one has to be born again a free gift from God to you. So are you willing to die to self and any self effort, and ask God to take up residence in you and be born again? Then do it and be. Then read and trust for all to be revealed to you what is needed to be revealed to you, by God as God is now your teacher in all things
Before the cross, John the Baptist said these things and no public water Baptism had ever occurred prior to the testament about Christ's coming. and more than one witness to what John said
Matthew 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”
Luke 3:16 John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
John 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know.
John 1:33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’
Then after Christ had gotten Baptist and the Spirit of God the Father came upon him, he went out and was tested by Satan, then the ministry began of the kingdom of heaven is near things like:
[h=3]Matthew 5[/h]King James Version (KJV)
5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
He did all sorts of miracles, even raising the dead back to life as Lazarus.
He did the Job that he was manifested to do and that was to bring us a new covenant of Love to all, not sects, not I am right and you are wrong, to bring us all together through love in respecting each others free will as God does. The only time I ever seen God get angry is when others take away others free will.
Okay Christ did all he came to do and proof in who he is were in the miracles and love he extolled to all the downtrodden people in his day. Never once did he claim self-righteousness.
So after the death and resurrection of the cross we are in a new Covenant being Baptized by God without water as was John did for repentance, after the resurrection lets see what new is taken place
Acts 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Then came Pentecost, so it scripture stating the new is coming before Pentecost took place?
Then even though Peter insisted on water Baptism in many a scripture shown see what is said after Acts 10 when they received the Spirit Baptism before water baptism
Acts 10:47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have
Acts 11:16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
So it does not matter if one gets water Baptized to me, and is a good conscience towards God if that is the motive of the person getting this done in whatever denomination they choose.
The reason I say this is because unless God by the free gift of God does the Baptism, which God does, and has done as shown in Pentecost did, yet this does not mean one has to speak in an unknown tongue, because to tell the truth at Pentecost they did not speak in unknown tongues, the tongues were known of the others their that Peter did not know, and the Holy Spirit spoke through Peter to them of the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of the Holy Spirit, and they believed and were saved, then they were water Baptized as what had become a tradition of the disciples when they knew Christ in the flesh, yet now after ascension known only in the Spirit, not flesh any more.
Now man has adopte4d many traditions calling them new and is a commandment to do. When anything that is a commandment that one has to do, negates free will, and God will never negate free will, yet people do.
I hope and prey you choose God to believe in as when Christ went to the cross he died for the sin of the whole world in order to bring us to his Father made perfect before him by belief:
John 1:29 [ John Testifies About Jesus ] The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 5:9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
How is it possible to obey him? Born again of the Spirit of God by God by the cross
Hebrews 10:10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[h=3]Colossians 1:22-23[/h]New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— [SUP]23 [/SUP]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
[h=3]John 16:9[/h]New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]about sin, because people do not believe in me;
So if one is convicted of sin and seeks to find truth that he took it all away at the cross and one believes this then God by the operation of has born you again in his Spirit the same as God did for Christ
Rom 6 a good chapter to see what God did but here is this, by belief in God you are baptized into the death of Christ and thus made alive to God by the resurrection of Christ
[h=3]Romans 6:4[/h]New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
This is all God's doing and man has had nothing to do with it, yet still looks to take credit for what God has done, by all kinds of self will worshipping when in fact God can only today be worshipped in Spirit and truth
John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
So one has to be born again a free gift from God to you. So are you willing to die to self and any self effort, and ask God to take up residence in you and be born again? Then do it and be. Then read and trust for all to be revealed to you what is needed to be revealed to you, by God as God is now your teacher in all things
HOLY SPIRIT baptism and water baptism are two completely different baptisms with two completely different functions. From what I am reading it is clear that many of you do not understand what the Holy Spirit baptism was nor do you understand the nature of water baptism. The concept of the Holy Spirit baptism has become so distorted that what people believe about H.S. baptism has absolutely no resemblance to what scripture has to say about it. All of the marginalizing of water baptism is reactionary to the 'works' verses faith argument and people have gone to great lengths to disconnect water baptism from its revealed context because they cannot harmonize the intent of water baptism with their own soteriology. This is creating a real problem. So, Where does one begin to discuss this issue without this turning it into a shouting match or a contest of "my scripture chain is better that your scripture chain," or "my logical argument is stronger than your logical argument.?" Does anyone beside be see a problem with this?
E
Yes we do.
The baptism issue is no different than the major issue in pauls day. People wanted to add physical circumcision to the gospel of grace, And paul spent numerous days writing to fight this "other gospel" which is not a different gospel at all. What is amazing, is just like the jews who got pissed at paul for teaching against this works based Gospel. Baptismal regenerationalist (via water) get just as angry.
I do not know about anyone else, But a see a disturbing pattern here!
Your right, Spirit baptism and water baptism is not the same.
Spirit baptism is spiritual cleansing. Water baptism is phsysical cleansing (it gets us wet)
The problem is with this issue, (as well as many, like the literal flesh in the eucharist) causes great contention, Because people read the word to fit their belief, and not force their belief to fit the word.
Titus 3: 5.
Not by works of righteousness (not by taking the lords supper, Not by going to church, Not by giving our offering, Not by rreading our bible, Not by being baptized in water etrc etc etc) which we have done, HE SAVED US by the WASHING of REGENERATION (baptism) and RENEWAL (new birth) of the HS
here we see two acts of the hs. He washes, or baptizes us, and he renews us with a new birth.
It is this new birth which gave the apostles and all people in the NT the gifts seen by those who were newly saved. Not the baptism. The baptism is what ALLOWED us to be given the HS in the new birth. It did not cause it.
E
No one here that I know of is denying your experience, In fact I would say we all (if we were honest) experienced the same thing you did.
However, God has warned us not to go by feeling when discovering his truth, for this will lead us astray.
we go by faith, not by feeling. If we went by feeling, we would be in trouble because we would only do what feels good.
Water baptism does not have to precede baptism of the holy spirit. Cornelius and company proved that.
Water baptism is IMO a public profession of identification with Jesus. It is a commanded action on the part of the believer that outwardly signifies obedience and a forsaking of the world. Baptism of the spirit is a hidden, inward work that circumcises the heart and occurs when a person believes into Christ.
Since salvation is tied with a public profession of Christ, in terms of importance, I would choose water baptism over baptism of the holy spirit because I know that whoever believes into Christ will receive the baptism of the spirit. It is a gift; water baptism is a command.
Water baptism is IMO a public profession of identification with Jesus. It is a commanded action on the part of the believer that outwardly signifies obedience and a forsaking of the world. Baptism of the spirit is a hidden, inward work that circumcises the heart and occurs when a person believes into Christ.
Since salvation is tied with a public profession of Christ, in terms of importance, I would choose water baptism over baptism of the holy spirit because I know that whoever believes into Christ will receive the baptism of the spirit. It is a gift; water baptism is a command.
H
OK.THE END, HA LA LU YA! AMEN ! My brothers and sisters, I just took 3hrs studying your hot debate, do you want my verdict?
LOL Well, I will give you my humble opinion. Some of you need more in depth studying, and one of you, in particular, needs to think more about your concluding remarks. eternally-greatful,you need to put your brain in gear, before you make your concluding statement. please, study your concluding statement in post 71.you were totally confusing and wrong, unless, you believe we are born again in water baptism. Then in posts 72 and 73 ,your statements were all good,biblical.
Let me challenge you all to go deeper:
God has always saved sinners the same way, through the blood of Christ and by the bap. of the H.S.
the new birth,and the bap. of the H.S. are the same.
water bap. is the sign of the N.Cov. circumcision is the sign of the O.Cov.
There is only one universal Church of Christ, one "flock" Jews and Gentiles. The Church was started by God with the salvation of Adam and Eve.
"faith alone" salvation is of the Devil.
God has always required : 1, Repentance 2. Trust in God,Jesus, 3. holiness of life to be saved. All these are enabled by the new birth. The "free will" of man has never saved one soul. Rom.9:16 "So it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."
Be blessed in Jesus name, who is also, the eternal SON of the Father and with the Holy Spirit, are one God, eternal. Hoffco
LOL Well, I will give you my humble opinion. Some of you need more in depth studying, and one of you, in particular, needs to think more about your concluding remarks. eternally-greatful,you need to put your brain in gear, before you make your concluding statement. please, study your concluding statement in post 71.you were totally confusing and wrong, unless, you believe we are born again in water baptism. Then in posts 72 and 73 ,your statements were all good,biblical.
Let me challenge you all to go deeper:
God has always saved sinners the same way, through the blood of Christ and by the bap. of the H.S.
the new birth,and the bap. of the H.S. are the same.
water bap. is the sign of the N.Cov. circumcision is the sign of the O.Cov.
There is only one universal Church of Christ, one "flock" Jews and Gentiles. The Church was started by God with the salvation of Adam and Eve.
"faith alone" salvation is of the Devil.
God has always required : 1, Repentance 2. Trust in God,Jesus, 3. holiness of life to be saved. All these are enabled by the new birth. The "free will" of man has never saved one soul. Rom.9:16 "So it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."
Be blessed in Jesus name, who is also, the eternal SON of the Father and with the Holy Spirit, are one God, eternal. Hoffco
E
I am not so sure the 120 were born again before the day of Pentecost. Yes, they were followers of Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus that one had to be born again from above to see the Kingdom of God. No one had been born again before the day of Pentecost, as far as I can tell from the biblical text. The Holy Spirit had came UPON some to accomplish certain tasks. From what I can tell from the biblical text, these 120 were born again from above on the day of Pentecost. Paul records that this group started out with around 500. Out of the 500 or so, only 120 were born again. There is a difference between believer and born again believer. From what I can tell, Holy Spirit baptism and being born again from above are the same.
Eddie
Eddie
Yes I see this too.
The day of professing, and then the day of possessing. Possessed by God, sounds bad, since the word possession is so well affiliated with being demonized
Well if the Devil can possess as we have seen in scripture as truth. Why Can't God thus possess us at our asking God to lead from within us. We are to receive the Holy Spirit, yes?
So why is possession a bad word then. For God came to live in us and not forcefully either.
Thanks Eddie
homwardbound
The day of professing, and then the day of possessing. Possessed by God, sounds bad, since the word possession is so well affiliated with being demonized
Well if the Devil can possess as we have seen in scripture as truth. Why Can't God thus possess us at our asking God to lead from within us. We are to receive the Holy Spirit, yes?
So why is possession a bad word then. For God came to live in us and not forcefully either.
Thanks Eddie
homwardbound
Isn't, water Baptism today more a membership into whatever world Church you are attending and thus get acceptance form all the others there, that congratulate you, which just gives one all the warm feelings of I must be doing it right, until you go to a different Church and get told no you can't be saved unless you get water Baptized here at my Church and on and ob the fight goes on.
Is God of this world? Where is God's Kingdom? And what is the only way one can worship God?
Is God of this world? Where is God's Kingdom? And what is the only way one can worship God?