Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Grandpa, you are saying that Christ decided that he picks me out of the entire world not to forgive when I go to Him with repentance? Paul made it clear that Christ saves. He is my Savior and I am cleanly forgiven. He speaks to me personally, and He speak to me every day through His word.

You are all up in the air because I speak well of His Father, my creator, and love Him as well as His Son.

You are always talking, yet, about going back. Back where? Is this back relating to this cursing? Of course I would be cursed by the law if I didn't take what I break of it to Christ for cleansing. Christ is my Savior, Christ took the curse of the law (death) from me.

What do you want me to do with the law? God gave it to me for my benefit. I am guided by it. Should I say it is a terrible thing? It is of God, I can not do that.

1. I am not grandpa

2. What is your argument? Paul said (as did God in lev 27) that if your going to try to add any part of the law to the gospel of Christ, that you are indebted to keep the whole law as specified in lev 27. Which means ALL of it PERFECTLY, or you are cursed (doomed to an eternity in hell)

Your argument, and everyone else who is trying to add ANY part of the law (including the ten commandments) is with Paul and God, Not us!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jeremiah 31



The New Covenant (pact) includes GOD's Law.

Yes. The law which is a schoolmaster. which leads us to christ. NOT the law which can ever save us.



Matthew 22

Exodus 20

Revelation 22

It is written that Blessed are they that Keep the Commandments.
Read the passage, Those born of God have his law written in their hearts. AND THEY DO OBEY HIS COMMANDS. there is no question of if. Only those trying to get to God by law say there is an if. John says those born og God CAN'T Sin, Because God is in them.

Again, everyones argument is with God. Not us, we just follow what God says!


Keeping the Commandments means the right to the "tree of life"

No it does not. If it could, we could be saved by keeping his commands., And Christ would never have had to come, He had to come because WE CAN'T keep every command written in the book of the law, thus we are cursed apart from Christ.


If we go back, not keeping the Commandment of God in the garden of Eden meant death.
How can we go back? we have never made it to where we DO keep the law according to Gods command (ALL OF IT) thus we have never left it
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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does anyone not know Jesus said " do this OFTEN in remembrance of me"

yet you want us to do this once a year?? WOW!!!
Just out of curiosity, how many times a year do you have a celebration to remember your birthday? How about your wedding anniversary? How often do you remember it? Celebrate your birthday weekly do you?



Has nothign to do with unleavened bread. It has to do with the passage you took out of context to prove a point.

The feast of unleavened bread is no longer APPLICABLE TO US.. so you can not use it.
I would be quite interested in seeing a scriptural exegesis showing that Unleavened Bread is not what is meant here and that it is no longer applicable.

it has been replaced by the Lords supper.
1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

Hmmm, not what Paul says. This is the only place in the scripture the term "Lord's supper" is used and it plainly says they are NOT eating the Lord's supper.

Like circumcision was replaced with baptism.
Circumcision was never replaced by baptism, they are two different events. Israel was baptized in the Red Sea, quite a different event than the ciricumcision of the flesh...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And I am sorry you are ignorant of that fact, perhaps a little more in depth study of the scripture is in order for you.




Do you force all new believers you bring to Christ who have not been circumcised to get circumcised too??
Oh yes indeed...

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I absolutely believe in the circumcision of the heart. I am sorry that you do not.

I honestly have never met anyone more enslaved in my life than i see in you!
Why thank you. That is perhaps the nicest compliment I have ever received....

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

G1401
δοῦλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

Puts me in some mighty fine company.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0

1. I am not grandpa

2. What is your argument? Paul said (as did God in lev 27) that if your going to try to add any part of the law to the gospel of Christ, that you are indebted to keep the whole law as specified in lev 27. Which means ALL of it PERFECTLY, or you are cursed (doomed to an eternity in hell)

Your argument, and everyone else who is trying to add ANY part of the law (including the ten commandments) is with Paul and God, Not us!
What the Word says is this:

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

We follow Christ by daily repentance to our sins. What sins? Those that break the Torah. Period. Christ died for our sins of ignorance. There is and was not ever a sin for willful disobedience. But because we have a High Priest in heaven, that is Jesus our Lord and Saviour, we repent when our eyes and hearts are opened to understanding that we have broken God's commandments/laws/statutes/ordinances, etc. When we repent of a sin (as revealed through the Torah) we must not return again to that sin, because that becomes a willful sin. The Torah (ie Instructions) are to be followed. Period. Jesus said "Follow me". How did Jesus walk? He walked obeying the Torah and this is the example He gave us. Nothing can replace Jesus and God's grace!!! Our fruit is the evidence we understand and practice the Torah. Again, not for salvation, but because we love the Father and His Son and this is what is commanded (not asked) of us. Keep the commandments.

Exo_15:26; Exo_16:28; Exo_20:6; Lev_22:31; Lev_26:3; Deu_4:2; Deu_4:40; Deu_5:10; Deu_5:29; Deu_6:2; Deu_6:17; Deu_7:9; Deu_7:11; Deu_8:2; Deu_8:6; Deu_10:13; Deu_11:1; Deu_11:8; Deu_11:22; Deu_13:4; Deu_13:18; Deu_19:9; Deu_26:17; Deu_26:18; Deu_27:1; Deu_28:9; Deu_28:45; Deu_30:10; Deu_30:16; Jos_22:5; 1Ki_2:3; 1Ki_3:14; 1Ki_6:12; 1Ki_8:58; 1Ki_8:61; 1Ki_9:6; 1Ki_11:38; 2Ki_17:13; 2Ki_23:3; 1Ch_28:8; 1Ch_29:19; 2Ch_34:31; Neh_1:9; Psa_78:7; Psa_89:31; Psa_103:18; Psa_119:60; Psa_119:115; Pro_3:1; Pro_4:4; Pro_7:1; Pro_7:2; Ecc_12:13; Dan_9:4; Mat_19:17; Joh_14:15; Joh_15:10; 1Jn_2:3; 1Jn_3:22; 1Jn_5:2; 1Jn_5:3; Rev_12:17; Rev_14:12;
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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JESUS IS THE ENTIRE THING ! JESUS IS THE ONLY THING !

RedTent ... I'm genuinely concerned for you. This latest post of yours is nothing short of a disaster and an abomination. I'm out.
Hmmm, large bold letters. That shows real understanding and doctrinal correctness, at least in some people’s minds and yet…

Christ said it was all about the Father, not Himself.

Christ taught us to pray to the Father…

Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Whose will do we seek?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus didn’t say it was He who would speak through the disciples…

Mat 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Jesus said He would refer us to the Father…

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Whose will are we to do?

Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Rewards are determined by the Father…

Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Whose glory do we come into?

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

I won’t drag this out with a thousand scriptures, you can simply search the Gospels for the word “Father” and see who it is really about. Christ never said it was about Him, He said it was all about the Father. Jesus said He came to reveal the Father…

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Yep. the dragon went off to make war with the church, The born again children of God. who were bore by the woman (abraham and Israel)

not people trying to obey the law to be saved.. he loves them!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have read these 40 pages, and this is my conclusion--

why would anyone who is actually IN CHRIST turn to a covenant God made with national Israel,
which is GONE (and we were NEVER part of), seek it for instruction in behavior?

When the New Testament is LOADED with the way we should live as believers?
I do not think we should ignore the OT. There is alot of stuff in there which we can learn from. How they lived, How God dealt with them. How these men of God learned and showed how Gods mercy changed their lives. I know some christians who state they have never even read the OT. Why should they. They are missing out on ALOT of stuff!
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
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Ok!! Can take a hint here!! LOL Let me state most clearly how I relate to the law itself.I do not. Jesus said john 13:34 this covers the whole law! If I love you I will not steal from you, etc... The other requirment is that we believe in what HE did,and if we believe, then Jesus comes always first before any law! The are 23 books in the new covenant not counting the 4 gospels, because all four of them until the end of each dealt with Jesus speaking about the old law and the better covenant which is to come,and now has come. Ah John 832 you forgot to follow that one verse you read brother!!1 John 3:4-10!!!! You might wish to speak from the scriptures in full content. Anyone can twist one verse! I do not need luck brother!! I have Jesus!! hehe Since I am in Christ there is no sin,Did you not see that bro?? In Christ Jesus there is love only, no need for laws! fear not you can trash me from this moment on,i will not reply.

The old law is just that OLD! Do you not get rid of an OLD car?LOL I do.I am reminded of the prophecy of Isaiah here. Matt 13:14-17 I myself will not look back, or go back to something I am not part of.As said through Paul in Philp 3:8-14 Those who hold to Jesus and Jesus alone have obtained what even Paul seemed could not.I would not be so bold is saying who I am in Christ Jesus to you,he knows, and I know through him. For those who truly know me,know the truth I speak. I press forward in Christ, I do not look to what is past.

For what is past has been fulfilled by Jesus,and the way he has prepared for his people is to follow him. Love fulfills the law.FULFILLS THE LAW!!! One single commandment from Jesus covers all the over 650 that many look to follow.( matt 7:21 is quoted much but not understood.

The will of God is to be and stay thankful for what JESUS DID!!!( 1 Thess 5:18) if people are still looking to follow something before Jesus,then how are they ever thankful to him? Yet the questions I have asked no one has an answer for?Strange? No not strange brothers and sisters sad!! I wipe my feet and push towards the goal.i have done all I can in this study.So when Jesus reminds you of what was spoken by his servant,do not hang you head and say I didn't know, because you did.Blessing all
And of course you niftily ignore this direct statement of Christ...

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And then what Paul said was...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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Why do you keep misrepresenting what we believe regarding GOD's laws? How many times do you have to be told that we do not believe GOD's laws have been abolished?

We live under a higher law than your precious 10 commandments that is able to give life instead of death.

You keep bringing up this silly, false caricature of what we believe in order to give your beliefs the appearance of legitimacy and to attack what we believe.
What do you REALLY beleive about God's Law?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Just out of curiosity, how many times a year do you have a celebration to remember your birthday? How about your wedding anniversary? How often do you remember it? Celebrate your birthday weekly do you?
What does this have to do with Jesus saying do this oftn in remembrance of me? What does it have to do with a birthdat period? Since when does "do this oftn in remebrance of me" happen only once a year (like the passover feast) So you only take communion and remember the death of Christ once a year, and not even Christ, But the passover and egypt?

Why do you continue to twist things??


I would be quite interested in seeing a scriptural exegesis showing that Unleavened Bread is not what is meant here and that it is no longer applicable.
Who said it is not applicable? we use unleavened bread at the lords communion.

Scripture?

Take, eat, this is my body which is BROKEN FOR YOU. The unleaven represents the body of Christ.

How about John 6?

vs 32 - 33 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

vs 35 - 40 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

vs 53 - 58 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed,and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

vs 61 -63 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

Of course you do not believe this either. That eternal life, never die, hunger or thirst, And a guarantee to be risen by Christ to ALL WHO FEED ON HIM (THE GOSPEL) You think they can lose it. So i would not expect you to understand this.

You keep your feast of unleavened bread. I have eaten of the true bread of life. And will continue to show my appreciation by taking the physical bread and cup OFTEN in remembrance of him AS HE COMMANDED!


1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

Hmmm, not what Paul says. This is the only place in the scripture the term "Lord's supper" is used and it plainly says they are NOT eating the Lord's supper.

No. It clearly says they are taking the Lords supper and making a mockery of it. By eating all the food and not sharing it, by drinking too much wine and getting drunk.

Wow where do you get your bible knowledge from?? When they met, they met to break bread. The did not do it as the church does it today. They had a big dinner, and broke bread, and remembered what Christ did for us.


Circumcision was never replaced by baptism, they are two different events. Israel was baptized in the Red Sea, quite a different event than the ciricumcision of the flesh...
Whatever.

circumcision represented being cleansed. And was commanded by God to be a part of the covenant. In the NT, it is not commanded.
baptism represents cleansing, and is commanded by God.


The communion table replaced the fiest of unleavened bread done once a year. Baptism replaced circucmsion (yet NONE OF THESE THINGS WILL SAVE YOU.

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And I am sorry you are ignorant of that fact, perhaps a little more in depth study of the scripture is in order for you.[/quote]

lol.. Circumcision was given to ABRAHAM as a sign of the covenant.
And this baptism you speak of? Only those who travelled the wilderness recieved this baptism.


You are so busy trying to prove me wrong in everything, You continue to make huge mistakes in everything.

So I guess only those in the wilderness were saved? SINCE NO ONE ELSE WAS BAPTISED INTO MOSES??


Oh yes indeed...

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I absolutely believe in the circumcision of the heart. I am sorry that you do not.
There you go twisting my word again. The law says physical circumcision. You are saying we must follow it.

The circumcision you speak of is done by God.


col 2: 11 - 12 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body 8of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

As you can see, Spiritual circumcision (and baptism) performed by God is the fulfilment of the symbols (physical circumcision and water baptism)

Why thank you. That is perhaps the nicest compliment I have ever received....

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

G1401
δοῦλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

Puts me in some mighty fine company.
Nope. Your not enslaved to christ, Your enslaved to the law.

And by being enslaved to the law, your indebted to obey the WHOLE LAW. So you better get working (oh wait, you already failed. Too late. Sorry for you. you better find another way!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
What the Word says is this:

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

We follow Christ by daily repentance to our sins. What sins? Those that break the Torah. Period. Christ died for our sins of ignorance. There is and was not ever a sin for willful disobedience. But because we have a High Priest in heaven, that is Jesus our Lord and Saviour, we repent when our eyes and hearts are opened to understanding that we have broken God's commandments/laws/statutes/ordinances, etc. When we repent of a sin (as revealed through the Torah) we must not return again to that sin, because that becomes a willful sin. The Torah (ie Instructions) are to be followed. Period. Jesus said "Follow me". How did Jesus walk? He walked obeying the Torah and this is the example He gave us. Nothing can replace Jesus and God's grace!!! Our fruit is the evidence we understand and practice the Torah. Again, not for salvation, but because we love the Father and His Son and this is what is commanded (not asked) of us. Keep the commandments.

Exo_15:26; Exo_16:28; Exo_20:6; Lev_22:31; Lev_26:3; Deu_4:2; Deu_4:40; Deu_5:10; Deu_5:29; Deu_6:2; Deu_6:17; Deu_7:9; Deu_7:11; Deu_8:2; Deu_8:6; Deu_10:13; Deu_11:1; Deu_11:8; Deu_11:22; Deu_13:4; Deu_13:18; Deu_19:9; Deu_26:17; Deu_26:18; Deu_27:1; Deu_28:9; Deu_28:45; Deu_30:10; Deu_30:16; Jos_22:5; 1Ki_2:3; 1Ki_3:14; 1Ki_6:12; 1Ki_8:58; 1Ki_8:61; 1Ki_9:6; 1Ki_11:38; 2Ki_17:13; 2Ki_23:3; 1Ch_28:8; 1Ch_29:19; 2Ch_34:31; Neh_1:9; Psa_78:7; Psa_89:31; Psa_103:18; Psa_119:60; Psa_119:115; Pro_3:1; Pro_4:4; Pro_7:1; Pro_7:2; Ecc_12:13; Dan_9:4; Mat_19:17; Joh_14:15; Joh_15:10; 1Jn_2:3; 1Jn_3:22; 1Jn_5:2; 1Jn_5:3; Rev_12:17; Rev_14:12;

wow. what is with all these people saying God died for only some sin and not them all?

Christ fulfilled ALL OF THE SACRIFICIAL LAWS.. Not just the ones done in ignorance. BUT ALL OF THEM.

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness.

God did not die for som sin, then tell us we ar eon our own, WE CAN NOT SHED OUR BLOOD TO GET FORGIVENESS. GOD HAD TO!!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Because the church has been to convert the gentiles, to let them know the gospel for these thousands of years. And as you say, they have done it by the NT, the completion of God's work for us through Christ. It has been good. But it is not complete, either, because as the NT is read it is not read as a whole with the OT. God is now opening up a way to know Him both as Creator and Savior. We have know Him mostly as Savior, and that is the most necessary. Now, we need to grow and know the Creator as well as the Savior.
oh yes......the special NEW thing that the goyim have blundered through for 2000 years.
not knowing the Father...until the Hebrew Roots movement rolls in for the closer....Plan A restart.

how arrogant you are!

no Christian has ever read the OT with understanding - OR AT ALL!

lololol.

oh look - in the New Covenant God-Breathed scriptures:

Luke 10:22
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Now, we need to grow and know the Creator as well as the Savior.
oh the Trinity!
involved in creation - who knew.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63

Yes. The law which is a schoolmaster. which leads us to christ. NOT the law which can ever save us.

And the Messiah tells you to Keep and Teach even the least Commandment.




Read the passage, Those born of God have his law written in their hearts. AND THEY DO OBEY HIS COMMANDS. there is no question of if. Only those trying to get to God by law say there is an if. John says those born og God CAN'T Sin, Because God is in them.

Again, everyones argument is with God. Not us, we just follow what God says!

So those born of GOD do not sin?

So what will they be Keeping?

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




No it does not. If it could, we could be saved by keeping his commands., And Christ would never have had to come, He had to come because WE CAN'T keep every command written in the book of the law, thus we are cursed apart from Christ.


Which Commandments did the Messiah tell us to Keep?

What Law did God say He would write on our hearts?

When the Messiah said rise take up thy bed and walk , the man did not tell him he could not. He believed and did as commanded.

It is written:

Revelation 22

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.









How can we go back? we have never made it to where we DO keep the law according to Gods command (ALL OF IT) thus we have never left it


It was a reference and example to what happened, i do not say we should "go back".
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
It was a reference and example to what happened, i do not say we should "go back".
do you keep the law perfectly? If you do. Good for you.

If you do not. Then you are either under a curse. Or (if you have recieved Gods provision) have been given life.

there is no inbetween.

Yes the messiah tells us to keep his commands. But he also know we will not do this. (he knew the jews would not. Yet look at the mercy and forgiveness he showed them for YEARS before he finally took action)

No one here is saying we should not obey God. What the argument is, Are you keeping it because you have been shown Gods mercy and in his power. Or doing it because your trying to earn a reward (salvation, or keep salvation if you THINK you have it)

PS.. Since you said a bunch of stiff INSIDE the quote. I could not read everything you said, I hope I hit on them all
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
do you keep the law perfectly? If you do. Good for you.

If you do not. Then you are either under a curse. Or (if you have recieved Gods provision) have been given life.

there is no inbetween.

Yes the messiah tells us to keep his commands. But he also know we will not do this. (he knew the jews would not. Yet look at the mercy and forgiveness he showed them for YEARS before he finally took action)

No one here is saying we should not obey God. What the argument is, Are you keeping it because you have been shown Gods mercy and in his power. Or doing it because your trying to earn a reward (salvation, or keep salvation if you THINK you have it)
Revelation 22

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
The Holy Spirit Baptism is the difference within us.
 

KohenMatt

Senior Member
Jun 28, 2013
4,031
233
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Yes, I am addressing you specifically.

I am also including the others in this thread that don't understand Christianity and desire to go back to the Law.

I haven't missed what you believe. You believe in keeping the commandments by your own power. You believe in the old mosaic covenant, without the animal sacrifices.

So you have half accepted Christ and half stay in the yoke of bondage. That's not really Christianity. That's still bondage. If you're half in bondage you're still in bondage.

I think its great that you want to agree. But I'm not going to agree with you all the way back into bondage. You're either ready to come out of her or you're not. I don't think you're ready but that's between you and God.
The you are completely and utterly dead wrong.

The only reason I obey any of the "old" law is because they're smart commands; there's wisdom and health and good relationships in them. Are you blessed on a daily basis when you choose to love your neighbor? Of course. Am I blessed by taking a day off work and resting in God? Yes. God says if I do them, I'll be blessed. Not in the sense of eternal salvation, but daily, practical blessing.
Do they have any bearing on my salvation? NOPE. That is completely through the grace of mercy of Jesus. If you have the time, re-read through all of my posts and see if you can pick up what I'm saying again. Ask eternally-grateful and see what he thinks about what I believe. He and I went around the block a couple of times and we reached an understanding.

If you still can't see it, you're choosing not to see it, and most likely you won't see it. And if that's the case, oh well. No skin off of my back.

Matt
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
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do you keep the law perfectly? If you do. Good for you.

If you do not. Then you are either under a curse. Or (if you have recieved Gods provision) have been given life.

there is no inbetween.

Yes the messiah tells us to keep his commands. But he also know we will not do this. (he knew the jews would not. Yet look at the mercy and forgiveness he showed them for YEARS before he finally took action)

No one here is saying we should not obey God. What the argument is, Are you keeping it because you have been shown Gods mercy and in his power. Or doing it because your trying to earn a reward (salvation, or keep salvation if you THINK you have it)

PS.. Since you said a bunch of stiff INSIDE the quote. I could not read everything you said, I hope I hit on them all
Hebrews 10

10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
On reflection of some of the things you have written i believe this part of Scripture brings understanding.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Yep. the dragon went off to make war with the church, The born again children of God. who were bore by the woman (abraham and Israel)

not people trying to obey the law to be saved.. he loves them!
I see the problem now, you are unable to read at an adult level. The verse is very plain that the dragon was enraged with the woman and goes to make war with those that remain who keep the Commandments of God and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ, yet you read it as something entirely different.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman,

The dragon is angry with the woman, the church.

and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And goes to make war with the remnant of the church (which did not go to her place, the Place of Safety) and this remnant keeps the Commandments and has the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10).
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
38
0

wow. what is with all these people saying God died for only some sin and not them all?

Christ fulfilled ALL OF THE SACRIFICIAL LAWS.. Not just the ones done in ignorance. BUT ALL OF THEM.

Without the shedding of blood, there can be no forgiveness.

God did not die for som sin, then tell us we ar eon our own, WE CAN NOT SHED OUR BLOOD TO GET FORGIVENESS. GOD HAD TO!!
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
Salvation is through faith alone; nothing else. Obviously the NT teaches this, but look at Noah, and Abraham and Moses' relationship with God. They were all about the grace and mercy of a God who delivered them and chose them to fellowship with Him; not the other way around. Our salvation through Jesus/Yeshua is no different.

When we have that as our foundation, we then need to realize that no obedience to the Torah/law or disobedience to it affects that gracious salvation. This is where the concept of "under the law" comes into play. God gave the law/Torah to Israel to teach them how to live, not to save them. Remember, God had already "saved" Israel through His gracious salvation and deliverance from Egypt at Passover. The Torah was given to show Israel how to live after that salvation.

There is no salvation in the Torah; it was never intended to do so. That's the distinction that needs to be made by both parties.

  • Torah Keepers--Salvation is by the grace and mercy of God/Jesus and in nothing else. Our salvation can't be earned through obedience to the Torah.
The fact that the Law is not kept by us for the purpose of earning salvation has been repeated in here to the point of ad nauseam, yet the accusation continually unabashedly is repeated that in this type of belief system, people are trying to earn salvation.

I'm honestly floored at how blind people can be. I honestly am. For the life of me, I cannot understand this. God's obviously trying to show me something with this. Now, if I can just figure out what that is...