Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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but don't you see that what you're saying is that God and the Old Covenant are the same thing?
Just because God's Covenant with man changed doesn't mean God changed. It's what He intended from the foundation of the world.
I think you fail to see His purpose in establishing the covenant with the nation of Israel.
It was conditional, dependent on the actions of the people, designed to make us see our great need of a Savior.
The New Covenant is entirely dependent on God through the righteousness of the Lord Jesus.
He establishes, maintains, and fulfills it.
We cannot add to it with our efforts (filthy rags).
We can only receive it by the faith given us in the person and work of Christ.
Just because God's Covenant with man changed doesn't mean God changed. It's what He intended from the foundation of the world.
I think you fail to see His purpose in establishing the covenant with the nation of Israel.
It was conditional, dependent on the actions of the people, designed to make us see our great need of a Savior.
The New Covenant is entirely dependent on God through the righteousness of the Lord Jesus.
He establishes, maintains, and fulfills it.
We cannot add to it with our efforts (filthy rags).
We can only receive it by the faith given us in the person and work of Christ.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
1 Peter 1:19-23 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Think about creation for a minute, the last thing God created was us. If what was created the previous 5 days would suddenly vanish, what would keep us alive? Take away what was established before Jesus was crucified, and we would know that there would be nothing for Him to complete/fulfill.
1 Corinthians 3:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
E
I think Jesus and paul were great examples.
How did Jesus and Paul defend their ministry? (apologetics)
Luke 24:44 [ The Scriptures Opened ] Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
Acts 28:23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
Romans 3:21 [ God’s Righteousness Through Faith ] But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
We must remember, ALL they had was the OT. Yet even paul told Timothy., he had enough knowledge as a child (from the OT) to be saved. To ignore the OT is to ignore the testimony which PROVES jesus is our suffering servant.
How did Jesus and Paul defend their ministry? (apologetics)
Luke 24:44 [ The Scriptures Opened ] Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
Acts 28:23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening.
Romans 3:21 [ God’s Righteousness Through Faith ] But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
We must remember, ALL they had was the OT. Yet even paul told Timothy., he had enough knowledge as a child (from the OT) to be saved. To ignore the OT is to ignore the testimony which PROVES jesus is our suffering servant.
I started this post and I can asked for it to be finished also. If anybody can say, with a sincere heart, that they have been edified by the truth in the Word of God, I'll keep quiet. If all we have learned is defining the differences between all who are participating, then I think this thread has been in vain, and I will ask a moderator to close it. Thank you and I sincerely hope there is no vanity in what I have started here. I have not had my original question answered at all but for one thing. Some say it's not a cult and others say it is. So back to the most profound subject that puts believers in Christ Jesus at odds with each other. The Law and Old Covenant versus grace and faith. What a shame.
C'mon 'Just',.....you might not have liked all the answers you got, but some of them were good.
I think it somewhat myopic of you to say, "no one answered my question".
(I did)......please reread.
I think it somewhat myopic of you to say, "no one answered my question".
(I did)......please reread.
I believe we are blessed by the Lord Jesus and in Him is the fullness of our blessings.
I don't believe we are blessed by living correctly according to the Law by our own will and power. I believe that is mans religion designed for slaves.
I believe that when a person walks with the Lord He causes them to walk worthy of Him in all things. So there is no more worry of "did I fall short before the law" or "did I fulfill that law to the best it could be fulfilled". We can just be us and love the Lord and know He loves us and share the blessings the Lord gives us with others...
Over and Out...
I don't believe we are blessed by living correctly according to the Law by our own will and power. I believe that is mans religion designed for slaves.
I believe that when a person walks with the Lord He causes them to walk worthy of Him in all things. So there is no more worry of "did I fall short before the law" or "did I fulfill that law to the best it could be fulfilled". We can just be us and love the Lord and know He loves us and share the blessings the Lord gives us with others...
Over and Out...
U
The Law and the Old Covenant versus the Grace/Gift of God given us in the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ ... i.e... The New Covenant ? Hmmmm .... decisions ... decisions ? My vane side is awfully tempted to try and accomplish my salvation on my own. On the other hand, maybe I can somehow find a way to combine and compromise the two ? This way I could please both God ... and myself ! What was the name of that group that your wife belongs to ??
E
Thank you, you just preached more truth from the gospel in those paragraphs than half of the world preaches on a Sunday morning. The devil attacks abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. These two things above all else.
As long as he has people occupied with themselves and their own actions as opposed to Jesus, the devil will continue to have power and sin will have dominion over us.
As long as he has people occupied with themselves and their own actions as opposed to Jesus, the devil will continue to have power and sin will have dominion over us.
E
The Law and the Old Covenant versus the Grace/Gift of God given us in the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ ... i.e... The New Covenant ? Hmmmm .... decisions ... decisions ? My vane side is awfully tempted to try and accomplish my salvation on my own. On the other hand, maybe I can somehow find a way to combine and compromise the two ? This way I could please both God ... and myself ! What was the name of that group that your wife belongs to ??
You are either a sinner incompetent of living a holy life and require a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in order to make you righteous before God or you are capable of saving yourself through your actions and living a sinless life after repenting.
If you live according to the flesh you will be judged according to the flesh.
I see the division. Here is where I stand. Where the principles of the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai? Is Jesus the creator of principalities? Are Jesus and the Father one? I think that's enough information to put the scriptures in proper perspective. I don't see any division in the Word of God. Oh ya, just about forgot, if the gospel of Jesus is distorted by Hebrew roots, then it's a cult. If Hebrew Roots adversaries distort the gospel of Jesus they are also a cult. Just sayin'.
I think there was some good discussion in it. But since we are fleshly, imperfect creatures, there is bound to be some vain and divisive comments on all sides. Some benefits to the discussion:
Maybe at this point, if you were really just hoping for an answer to the OP, would be a poll?
Please though, if you do, don't just give a Yes or No option. That's how we got here!
Shabbat Shalom,
Matt
- One thing I try to remember with any discourse no matter the topic, I might not the see fruit I had hoped to in someone else, but did my thoughts, actions and words lead to some degree of fruit in my life? I can say that it did for me.
- I trust that there will be fruit from this discussion that will come later. Perhaps seeds have been planted in people's lives, whether they posted or merely read. Someday, God may bring that to fruition.
- Also, as a now relative newbie to the site, I do have a better idea of the brothers and sisters who are an encouragement (whether they disagree with me or not), and others who are not.
Maybe at this point, if you were really just hoping for an answer to the OP, would be a poll?
Please though, if you do, don't just give a Yes or No option. That's how we got here!
Shabbat Shalom,
Matt
I think there was some good discussion in it. But since we are fleshly, imperfect creatures, there is bound to be some vain and divisive comments on all sides. Some benefits to the discussion:
Maybe at this point, if you were really just hoping for an answer to the OP, would be a poll?
Please though, if you do, don't just give a Yes or No option. That's how we got here!
Shabbat Shalom,
Matt
- One thing I try to remember with any discourse no matter the topic, I might not the see fruit I had hoped to in someone else, but did my thoughts, actions and words lead to some degree of fruit in my life? I can say that it did for me.
- I trust that there will be fruit from this discussion that will come later. Perhaps seeds have been planted in people's lives, whether they posted or merely read. Someday, God may bring that to fruition.
- Also, as a now relative newbie to the site, I do have a better idea of the brothers and sisters who are an encouragement (whether they disagree with me or not), and others who are not.
Maybe at this point, if you were really just hoping for an answer to the OP, would be a poll?
Please though, if you do, don't just give a Yes or No option. That's how we got here!
Shabbat Shalom,
Matt
but don't you see that what you're saying is that God and the Old Covenant are the same thing?
Just because God's Covenant with man changed doesn't mean God changed. It's what He intended from the foundation of the world.
I think you fail to see His purpose in establishing the covenant with the nation of Israel.
It was conditional, dependent on the actions of the people, designed to make us see our great need of a Savior.
The New Covenant is entirely dependent on God through the righteousness of the Lord Jesus.
He establishes, maintains, and fulfills it.
We cannot add to it with our efforts (filthy rags).
We can only receive it by the faith given us in the person and work of Christ.
Just because God's Covenant with man changed doesn't mean God changed. It's what He intended from the foundation of the world.
I think you fail to see His purpose in establishing the covenant with the nation of Israel.
It was conditional, dependent on the actions of the people, designed to make us see our great need of a Savior.
The New Covenant is entirely dependent on God through the righteousness of the Lord Jesus.
He establishes, maintains, and fulfills it.
We cannot add to it with our efforts (filthy rags).
We can only receive it by the faith given us in the person and work of Christ.
God's intentions from the foundation of the world is to have every human live with Him eternally. His covenants were designed toward that end, and God didn't pick the gentiles who lived after Christ lived as a man as the only people worth saving. He didn't design them to make you see the need of living with Him eternally, God's view was much broader than that, you are being selfish. God designed them to show His principles to the Hebrews. God tells us to learn from them, they were designed to teach all the humans God created.
Think of the world at that time apart from your world at your time. People made up their own gods and did not live in harmony with how God created the world so God created a people to teach. God wants you to look at how He taught them to see the eternal principles of God and the way we are to live. He gave new covenants all the time, and every time God gave a new covenant it was never a covenant to erase all those given before, and never is.
You are thinking that Christ only was here in the year 30. Christ is God, Christ lived and his blood was used for sin in eternal time not just our time. In our time it was perfected. People today say fulfilled in the sense of destroy. That is not what Christ did. His blood was always used, but now it was the real blood and Christ didn't destroy the blood of bulls used to represent Him before, but we can now use His real blood in our kind of time. Christ replaced, a different word from destroy.
You are reading about filthy rags by only one scripture. I could read only one scripture and say without obedience we are nothing. That would be discounting grace and forgiveness and as wrong as you are doing by discounting obedience.