The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[know1]

Actually, the title of this thread is a little misleading, the works of Law vs the works of Faith to justification...

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Notice here that Christ died for the ungodly not the faithful.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Prior to our having faith in Him.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

We are justified by His blood, by the shedding of the blood of Christ, not by our faith.

Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

In fact, nothing here has anything to do with our faith...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It is God's faith, not ours.

This is a copy of my response to you from the last time you mention the above.
I believe I have the title of the thread correct, sir. What you have pointed out, is just more specific.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom_3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
These are just a few of the many scripture verses that declare our justification through faith in the work of the cross of Jesus. Yes, we who are born again are justified by the blood of Jesus, but that is for those who believe or have faith in God. The blood is worthless or dead to them that don't believe, even as the faith of God is worthless or dead without corresponding action. When you believe or have faith in God to do what He said He would do, your actions, deeds, or works will line up with your faith. You will walk accordingly. Those who don't truly believe will waiver or question if it is God's will or not, and will be tossed about, like the waves of the sea, until they fall away from believing, because they failed to walk by faith but rather walked by sight, feelings, voices, thoughts,...etc. Theword of God is sure, and God is faithful who promised.

 

[know1]

Hasn't the World always thought the Truth was RUBBISH?
Wasn't Jesus Christ killed because of the Truth He taught?
Weren't the Disciples killed because they taught the Truth as well?
Did the prophets of old get killed because they prophesied Truths?

The World will always see the Truth as RUBBISH.

PS. what part of my post do you think is RUBBISH, i know, "all of it" my point is this i have Scriptural support for everything in that post, so then name something in the post that you would like to see Scriptures for it. and i will show the Scriptures which teach it.

^i^

Personally, I think it is a lack of comprehension and understanding on the part of others.
I too believe that we will pay for our sins, not only because of personal experience and experimentation in this area, but because of overwhelming scriptural support.
But I am having difficulty with the below verses that seem to conflict with the majority of scripture.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I would appreciate any insights on the bold/underlined verse. Thanks.

 

[john832]

That's what I've been saying way back in this thread. They shouldn't really be opposed one with another. I should be worded differently I think.

Persactly.

 

[john832]

This is a copy of my response to you from the last time you mention the above.
I believe I have the title of the thread correct, sir. What you have pointed out, is just more specific.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom_3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom_3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom_5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
These are just a few of the many scripture verses that declare our justification through faith in the work of the cross of Jesus. Yes, we who are born again are justified by the blood of Jesus, but that is for those who believe or have faith in God. The blood is worthless or dead to them that don't believe, even as the faith of God is worthless or dead without corresponding action. When you believe or have faith in God to do what He said He would do, your actions, deeds, or works will line up with your faith. You will walk accordingly. Those who don't truly believe will waiver or question if it is God's will or not, and will be tossed about, like the waves of the sea, until they fall away from believing, because they failed to walk by faith but rather walked by sight, feelings, voices, thoughts,...etc. Theword of God is sure, and God is faithful who promised.

Actually, I meant no criticism, I intended to just sharpen my thought in the matter. Hopefully you are not offended. If you find this offensive, my deepest apologies.

 

[homwardbound]

Absolutely!!! Depending on what you do after you pray will either make or break the thing you are believing God for. This is where the works must correspond with your faith. If you have no works or if your works say contrary to your prayer, then that which you asked for or commanded to be done will not happen. This is where most people fail, and one reason why they didn't get what they asked God for.

James 4:3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.

Asking God is not for our flesh to be all comfy and have a great Job, rather to do God's work, not mine, God's as Abraham did , as Noah did and many Saints by belief, heard God and with a great joy, while the world came against me, you and all that God has taken up residence with did as God asked
The fight is flesh or Spirit of God, a choice and I can't perform the Spirit of God, God can though through me as long as I have co-crucified self with Christ being dead to Flesh-self and thus automatically alive to God in the Spirit of God, which is the only way God can be worshipped in Spirit and truth. No flesh actions are pleasing to God, people yes, and we as flesh continue to surround ourselves with other agreeing flesh and bash other flesh that is not in agreement, Thus working and never seeing how deep the love of God is to me, you and all that are caught up in the flesh game.
AS Paul said many times we are to be dead to sin, flesh nature and alive to God by the resurrection, all this is done by God through Christ to give us new life here and now, and this does not mean a good Job, good wife and or Husband.
It means no matter what position one is in to be content, whether in Jail, shipwrecked, homeless, or whatever one's trouble is, we are not to fear because God, Jesus overcame the world already for us

[h=3]John 16:33[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]33 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

The works I do or not I anymore why? because every time I wish to do good I find evil present with me, I want to do good and do it at times, then not, then do, oh wretched man that I am.
What is the problem here, maybe it might be the "I" that needs to die with Christ at the death of the savior at the cross?
What might happen if "I" die to self daily at the cross? Might I be made alive, and be able to see this, especially if I am dead to this world maybe, you decide?
Which is better God works through you or self works parading itself getting Kudos from others?

 

[know1]

Actually, I meant no criticism, I intended to just sharpen my thought in the matter. Hopefully you are not offended. If you find this offensive, my deepest apologies.

Not in the least bit sir. Thank you, but no apology necessary. I don't offend that easily. What I take offensive to is when I try to exalt God by telling others what He did and they turn it into an act of nature or something that was by chance, or the like. I hate talking to a doubting Thomas, or worse yet, one who claims to be a born again child of God, that takes the glory away from my God, and turns it, my faith in Him, and in His word, to filth with their doubt. This has nothing to with pride, but jealousy and zeal for my God and savior.

 

[homwardbound]

Absolutely!!! Depending on what you do after you pray will either make or break the thing you are believing God for. This is where the works must correspond with your faith. If you have no works or if your works say contrary to your prayer, then that which you asked for or commanded to be done will not happen. This is where most people fail, and one reason why they didn't get what they asked God for.

but what if I am dead to self?

 

[zone]

but what if I am dead to self?

home, that's dead to the old man.
we 'sposed to be alive to Christ and the church.
i think the poster was mentioning good works (which God ordained beforehand christians would walk in).
it just means in our daily lives - being a good dentist or mother or pastor.
a good neighbour, daughter, sunday school teacher.

no worries - christians will do them.
and do.
k....zone

 

[know1]

but what if I am dead to self?

What part of self are you talking about? There are many different parts to you. The lust of the eyes, the dull ears, or the sinful flesh, the body of sin or the old man, the mind, the heart of flesh, or the reins, the soul, the spirit, or the new man/creature?
It makes no difference, dead or alive, what matters is what you believe, say, and act on.

 

[Kerry]

Death to self is death to your own will and life is to desire, do and gain the will of God. For instance don't store up earthly treasure for your treasure is in heaven. Don't sit in the best seat lest on more esteemed arrive and you be embarrassed. If a man ask for your coat give your hat also. Love your neighbor as yourself. If a man borrows from you don't expect it back. This is death to self. In Paul's case, he even gave up marriage and his education and the seat of high priest. Moses was inline to become Pharaoh but rejected it to follow the will of God.

 

[know1]

Asking God is not for our flesh to be all comfy and have a great Job, rather to do God's work, not mine, God's as Abraham did , as Noah did and many Saints by belief, heard God and with a great joy, while the world came against me, you and all that God has taken up residence with did as God asked
The fight is flesh or Spirit of God, a choice and I can't perform the Spirit of God, God can though through me as long as I have co-crucified self with Christ being dead to Flesh-self and thus automatically alive to God in the Spirit of God, which is the only way God can be worshipped in Spirit and truth. No flesh actions are pleasing to God, people yes, and we as flesh continue to surround ourselves with other agreeing flesh and bash other flesh that is not in agreement, Thus working and never seeing how deep the love of God is to me, you and all that are caught up in the flesh game.
AS Paul said many times we are to be dead to sin, flesh nature and alive to God by the resurrection, all this is done by God through Christ to give us new life here and now, and this does not mean a good Job, good wife and or Husband.
It means no matter what position one is in to be content, whether in Jail, shipwrecked, homeless, or whatever one's trouble is, we are not to fear because God, Jesus overcame the world already for us

John 16:33

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]33 [/SUP]These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

The works I do or not I anymore why? because every time I wish to do good I find evil present with me, I want to do good and do it at times, then not, then do, oh wretched man that I am.
What is the problem here, maybe it might be the "I" that needs to die with Christ at the death of the savior at the cross?
What might happen if "I" die to self daily at the cross? Might I be made alive, and be able to see this, especially if I am dead to this world maybe, you decide?
Which is better God works through you or self works parading itself getting Kudos from others?

I mean no offense sir, but I have difficulty at times understanding and following some of the things you are trying to say.
What do you mean when you say, "The fight is flesh or Spirit of God, a choice and I can't perform the Spirit of God, God can though through me as long as I have co-crucified self with Christ being dead to Flesh-self and thus automatically alive to God in the Spirit of God, which is the only way God can be worshipped in Spirit and truth. No flesh actions are pleasing to God, people yes, and we as flesh continue to surround ourselves with other agreeing flesh and bash other flesh that is not in agreement, Thus working and never seeing how deep the love of God is to me, you and all that are caught up in the flesh game."
Frankly, I think you are above me, because I haven't the foggiest of what you are saying, or how to achieve whatever it is you said, neither do I comprehend your way of thinking.
Personally, I think you are too much into the flesh thingy. The way I see it, obeying the laws has more to do with the flesh, and walking by faith or the works of faith has more to do with walking in or after the Spirit.
If one is fighting the flesh, they are failing the fight of faith. Things you do on your own strengths, I think, are of the flesh, things done in the strength and power of God, well, that's God. And getting healed, that too is God.
Tell me sir, exactly, how does one walk by faith without the flesh getting in the way?
When you say, by or in the flesh and flesh actions, do you mean worldly things, or works done with your physical body, or... what?

 

[Kerry]

Know1 how long have been a born again christian?

 

[know1]

Death to self is death to your own will and life is to desire, do and gain the will of God. For instance don't store up earthly treasure for your treasure is in heaven. Don't sit in the best seat lest on more esteemed arrive and you be embarrassed. If a man ask for your coat give your hat also. Love your neighbor as yourself. If a man borrows from you don't expect it back. This is death to self. In Paul's case, he even gave up marriage and his education and the seat of high priest. Moses was inline to become Pharaoh but rejected it to follow the will of God.

Thank you, I understand and agree with that sir.
Then is praying for wealth, so you can give to God and the poor, of self/flesh or is it godly?

 

[know1]

Know1 how long have been a born again christian?

I'm too ashamed to say. Why?

 

[Kerry]

No need to be ashamed. I often find that those who are young in the Lord have difficulty understanding the whole death to self thing. And to your second post, there is the office of the giver. The Lord does bless financially to those who are called to this office. But remember the widow women who gave two pennies and Jesus said that she gave more than anyone.
What i'm trying say is that the closer you get to God the more you find how lacking you are and the more you depend on the cross to stand before God as just and true. Zeal is good for winning the lost, however it is easy, very easy to get puffed with pride. Pride is the originally sin. To be humble is death to self and glory to God.

 

[know1]

No need to be ashamed. I often find that those who are young in the Lord have difficulty understanding the whole death to self thing. And to your second post, there is the office of the giver. The Lord does bless financially to those who are called to this office. But remember the widow women who gave two pennies and Jesus said that she gave more than anyone.
What i'm trying say is that the closer you get to God the more you find how lacking you are and the more you depend on the cross to stand before God as just and true. Zeal is good for winning the lost, however it is easy, very easy to get puffed with pride. Pride is the originally sin. To be humble is death to self and glory to God.

I understand dying to self, but I fail to see how this ties in with works of faith. It sounds like any type of work done with the natural body in faith, is of the flesh.
When I hear God tell me something or get an answer to a prayer, I don't get puffed up, but feel special, loved, and humbled.

 

[Kerry]

I understand dying to self, but I fail to see how this ties in with works of faith. It sounds like any type of work done with the natural body in faith, is of the flesh.
When I hear God tell me something or get an answer to a prayer, I don't get puffed up, but feel special, loved, and humbled.

Bother or sister, If God tells you to do something. First of all He will confirm it, if you ask Him to. Gideon did so. The true work of God is done by the Holy Spirit. Faith comes into play by allowing or trusting the Holy Spirit to work through you. There by no man can boast. It is the work of the Spirit that you allow. I know this is difficult. Our finite minds find hard to understand but yet it is simple. We can't work on or own. Abraham tried to help God by sleeping with Sarah's maid. That was a disaster. I hope you understand.

 

[know1]

Bother or sister, If God tells you to do something. First of all He will confirm it, if you ask Him to. Gideon did so. The true work of God is done by the Holy Spirit. Faith comes into play by allowing or trusting the Holy Spirit to work through you. There by no man can boast. It is the work of the Spirit that you allow. I know this is difficult. Our finite minds find hard to understand but yet it is simple. We can't work on or own. Abraham tried to help God by sleeping with Sarah's maid. That was a disaster. I hope you understand.

Sister?! If you are addressing me, I'm a guy.
The word of God is a lamp to my feet and tells me what the will of God is in many areas of life. If God tells me that He wants me to have 'what things soever ye desire', then I pray for my desire to line up with His will and ask for my heart's desire. It is written that He causes us to both will and do of His good pleasure.

 

[Kerry]

Sister?! If you are addressing me, I'm a guy.
The word of God is a lamp to my feet and tells me what the will of God is in many areas of life. If God tells me that He wants me to have 'what things soever ye desire', then I pray for my desire to line up with His will and ask for my heart's desire. It is written that He causes us to both will and do of His good pleasure.

That is true Brother ( apologize about the sister gender is not revealed on CC). Now you have hit on another note. The desire of your heart. Is the desire of your heart to be rich and famous. Remember the meek shall inherit the earth. Yes wealth and riches appeals to my flesh. For what Reason, that I can drink Crystal and sail my yacht around the world. Maybe I could feed starving people. I can give them a bowl of rice while I gorge on a private chef prepared ribeye steak. That makes me feel good, because I have some what helped my fellow man. If I really wanted to help them I would preach the cross our support a ministry that is preaching the cross. The word was meant for those who desire is the desire of God. Paul's Desire was to preach the cross to the gentiles and God granted that request because it was his will also. The closer you get to God your desire becomes His desire. Does that make sense?

 

[know1]

That is true Brother ( apologize about the sister gender is not revealed on CC). Now you have hit on another note. The desire of your heart. Is the desire of your heart to be rich and famous. Remember the meek shall inherit the earth. Yes wealth and riches appeals to my flesh. For what Reason, that I can drink Crystal and sail my yacht around the world. Maybe I could feed starving people. I can give them a bowl of rice while I gorge on a private chef prepared ribeye steak. That makes me feel good, because I have some what helped my fellow man. If I really wanted to help them I would preach the cross our support a ministry that is preaching the cross. The word was meant for those who desire is the desire of God. Paul's Desire was to preach the cross to the gentiles and God granted that request because it was his will also. The closer you get to God your desire becomes His desire. Does that make sense?

Look at the color of the name. If it is blue, the person is a male, if magenta or pink, the person is a female. That is how you know their gender.
Words without power don't accomplish much. If you get a person healed, they will be more eager to listen.