Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

enoch1nine · Jul 14, 2013

Sorry, someone told you that and you believed it. But it is not true.
We have inherited sins from our fathers.

"And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel."

"And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor"

"And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said"

"And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever."

"And he looked on the Kenites, and took up his parable, and said, Strong is thy dwellingplace, and thou puttest thy nest in a rock. Nevertheless the Kenite shall be wasted, until Asshur shall carry thee away captive."

"And he took up his parable, and said, Alas, who shall live when God doeth this! And ships shall come from the coast of Chittim, and shall afflict Asshur, and shall afflict Eber, and he also shall perish for ever. And Balaam rose up, and went and returned to his place: and Balak also went his way."

"Son of man, put forth a riddle, and speak a parable unto the house of Israel; ... ... Pharaoh ... ..."

And furthermore, might one dare to guess just how many of these stories address the false doctrine of calling God wicked?
i.e. "torture artist" ?

It is blasphemy of Jesus's name of "Salvation"
You are already forgiven, because you were misled.
And hopefully, still a virgin, having never really bought into it.
Turn away before you make it worse, blasphemy of the Spirit!

Elizabeth619 · Jul 14, 2013

Shiloah said:

Dan wasn't the one I was talking about.

Alter2Ego · Jul 14, 2013

danschance said:

ALTER2EGO -to- DANSCHANCE:
But that's just it. Neither the "Rich Man" nor "Lazarus" nor Abraham were conscious after death. The "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" were fictional characters. Neither of them actually existed in real life.

The Bible speaks of another Lazarus that was Jesus Christ's friend who died and was resurrected by Christ.

"{1} Now there was a certain man sick, Lazarus of Bethany, of the village of Mary and Martha her sister. {2} It was, in fact, the Mary that greased the Lord with the perfumed oil and wiped his feet dry with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. {3} Therefore his [Lazarus] sisters dispatched word to him [Jesus], saying: "Lord, see! the one for whom you have affection is sick." (John 11:1-2)

Notice that this Lazarus is clearly identified by his village of Bethany and by the fact that he had two sisters, Mary and Martha, and that Jesus Christ valued him as a friend. In fact, he is identified as "the one for whom [Jesus] had affection." That particular Lazarus was no beggar struck with sores, whereas the Lazarus in the parable with the "Rich Man" was a beggar that was covered with sores or ulcers and was never identified as related to anyone. That's why he was out there begging, because he apparently had no relatives or friends to turn to for help. Notice this below.

"{19} But a certain man was rich, and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. {20} But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers {21} and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers." (Luke 16:19-21)

As can be seen, the only person that was a real in the parable/illustration was Abraham. So you are left with a fictional "Rich Man" whose name and location is never given and a fictional "Lazarus" who clearly is not related to Mary and Martha.

Please explain how consciousness can be given to two fictional characters, as follows: (1) the "Rich Man", and (2) "Lazarus." If you can bring those two characters to life -- from their fictional non-existence -- then your next step is to explain where the Bible says Abraham, and any dead person, is conscious, when they are actually known to be dead.

Brighthouse · Jul 14, 2013

SisterAlter2Ego Hell is not a place the Lord wishes to send anyone!! It was set up for the devil and his angels to dwell in because of there unbelief. In case you may be a newer believer it has always been most important not for anyone to believe me!

But rather just what does the Word of God say to this! First let us look at Lucifer before his fall. he was the very guardian to the throne of God itself!! Not a small place of importance!( Ezekiel 28:14-19) Here we see that his fall was due to his love over his own beauty!verse 17 Now because of this he decided in what I call the 5 I wills.Spoken of in Isaiah 14:12-16) Hence his fall to a new name as well, Satan.

Most people as you know make the enemy to be some very ugly creature,which of course could not be further away from the truth! So in his great pride and unbelief in the God who created him,he caused Adam to commit the same unbelief as he has,using Adam's wife Eve.( gen 2:17) Adam choose to believe his wife over what God himself had already told them!

Now how long was this before the devil came to tempt Eve,this good sister is not known through the word,but what we do know is that from both unbelief that Adam had, he was removed from the garden forever! Now lets fast forward a bit shall we?

When Jesus came and died and rose again, his blood covers every sin except one!! UNBELIEF!!! For from the beginning God who could have made us like robots choose not to,giving every woman and man free will. From there own will we either choose to believe in all Jesus has done and stay thankful,or we choose not to even consider Jesus in our lives. The result of this is that it is not God who sends people to hell,we choose! For because the enemy wants no part of God those who choose to follow him do follow him!!

Right to where he should be!!For all time to be reminded of his grave mistake! I had to say all of this so that when I show you this scripture you will fully understand! READY????? Here it comes!! rev 21:7-8!!) There is no mistake as to what this scripture now means. Jesus came to love and save us all!!

His purpose was only to spare man of what was in store for the devil and his angels, but man must choose! And the choice he or she makes will result in the rewards they themselves receive!( rev 22:12!!) I hope this helps you understand better sis! There is much to know and understand,and i humbly sure do not have all, or even most of the answers sis!

But from the part God has chosen to revel unto me,I give to others, to both encourage, and cause others to become reconciled to our LOVING!!! Jesus forever!! amen!! ( 2 cor 5:17-21) to never have fear!! Doubt!!! or UNBELIEF!!!

After about my third year in the Lord I had wondered if God talks to his people,you know I mean personal? As I was in prayer on a very rain filled Wednesday,a knock came upon my door, I got up to answer the door when a very old man, with torn up clothes came to my door! I said ah yes sir may i help you? is your name mark?

Ah yes it is how do you know, for I do not even know you! He looked up and smiled and said" God sends who he knows, and he knows who he sends!" He turned around and walked away. I do not know how long I stood there dumfounded! But when my eyes looked up he was gone.

It is spoken of in God's Word, that we always should be kind to strangers, because some of us have entertained angels without knowing it. ( Hebrews 13:2) I believe sister!! i really do! May the blessing of our Lord always keep you in belief!! He keeps me sister!!( acts 10:34) And God does not love me a bit more then he loves all of you!! amen!

Shiloah · Jul 14, 2013

Elizabeth619 said:

He's the one I'm talking about.

Laodicea · Jul 15, 2013

Luke 16:22 KJV
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

When are people carried by angels?
Matthew 24:31 KJV
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

According to this verse people are carried by angels at the return of Jesus. Is there are verse that says people are carried by angels at death? If not then we must believe the evidence that says people are carried by angels at the return of Jesus. Doctrine is not based on one text alone. It is based on all texts.

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

thecreationtutor said:

No one? What am I, chopped liver?

Joh 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I have consistently stated that we NEVER go to heaven, Christ comes back to the earth...

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

And after the Millenium, the Father brings New Jerusalem down to the earth...

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

Elizabeth619 said:

People fear the mistaken idea of eternal torment. They fear a terrible, eternal punishement ther was poplarized by a book by Dante Alighieri that became the basis of teaching that Christianity has adopted.

Paul say that the last enemy is what? Eternal life in flames? NO, DEATH!

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The word for death here is...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

Means death.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is not eternal life in some other place, it is death. Word for death here...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

How about the "Golden Text"?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What is the word for perish here?

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It does not mean life in some other place, it means DEATH.

Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Fear of what? Life in some other place of torture? No, death...

Again, the word for death here is...

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

Elizabeth619 said:

Take a chance on being burned to death and then have no hope of life again. Dead for all eternity? This doesn't look that bad to you? One thing is for sure, we went to different schools.

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

Alter2Ego said:

#1 - There are actually three words translated "hell" in the New testament...

Hades and it means the grave

Tartaroos, meaning prison or restraint and it is only used once and it is used in reference to demons...

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Gehenna, which is used to mean hellfire, the lake of fire.

#2 - Rev 20:11-15 is an interesting passage, it actually describes two resurrections...

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

In this passage notice the books are opened. All 66 of 'em. This is a time for those mentioned in this scripture

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

to cast a little more light on this passage...

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Notice verse 32 speaks to a future time? This is the time of the GWTJ.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now notice verses 13 through 15. The books (plural) are not opened. These are those who have made a choice and they have chosen poorly. The are burned up in the Lake of Fire...

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

This is the reward of the incorrigibly wicked. They are burned to ashes.

#3 - Obviously it is a figure of speech that says the wicked can be put to death.

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

danschance said:

I would be willing to bet anything up to and including a nickel that you do not believe that this is literal teaching danschance. Let's see if you really do...

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Concerning salvation, Christ says here to listen to whom? Moses and the Prophets. so are you a big proponent of the Law, meaning the Pentateuch and the teachings of the O.T. books to gain salvation? Christ plainly says here that if you would not hear Moses and the prophets, you would not listen to Him (the One who rose form the dead).

So now tell me danschance, is this parable LITERAL teaching?

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

Bluecomet said:

You got some scripture for this?

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

Alter2Ego said:

Here is a little problem with Lazarus and Abraham if this is literal and not a parable...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Who is the firstborn among many brethren? Abraham, Lazarus or Christ?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Now when are we made alive again? At HIS COMING! Yet if we take Luke 16 literally, Abraham and Lazarus were mad alive sometime in the past.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When do the dead in Christ rise to be with Him (so shall we ever be with the Lord)? At the trump of God the dead in Christ rise first!

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

When do we put on immortality? At the last trump!

Michael50 · Jul 15, 2013

Bluecomet said:

The scripture in question is: 1 Peter 3:18-20

Notice, that the preaching was done "by the spirit" (verse18) in Noah's day,,,to people who were then living (verses 19,20).

The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. See

Psalm 142:7
Isaiah 42:6,7
Isaiah 61:1
Luke 4:18

Jesus laid in the tomb, until His Ressurection.

enoch1nine · Jul 15, 2013

Unless you see signs and wonders, you will not believe.
Lazarus and the rich man are the same man.
It's the rich man's blasphemies against God that he can't forgive himself for.

notuptome · Jul 15, 2013

Michael50 said:

His body laid in the tomb. While on the cross He bowed His head and commanded His Spirit to leave His body. Death did not overtake Jesus. Death could never have overtaken Him. John 19:30

For the cause of Christ
Roger

john832 · Jul 15, 2013

notuptome said:

In other words you don't really believe that Christ died for your sins?

Hmmm, Christ, Himself, says He was dead...

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

This was not a three day and three night minor inconvenience. Not a shedding of a husk that meant little, Jesus Christ DIED for us and was stone cold dead for three days and three nights...

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

He did not lay down a shell or husk, He laid down His VERY LIFE for us.

Michael50 · Jul 15, 2013

notuptome said:

His spirit that He gave up,, was the same spirit that every person gives up at the moment they die,,,,,,The Breath of life,, and nothing more.

Laodicea · Jul 15, 2013

notuptome said:

When Jesus died He comitted His spirit unto the Father. Just as the Bible says, the spirit returns unto God. The spirit if you study is the breath of life. Jesus did not just command His spirit to leave His body, He committed His spirit unto the Father.

danschance · Jul 15, 2013

enoch1nine said:

How can they be the same man if they were in tow different places at the same time. Sounds like your theory is half baked.

Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

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