Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S

Shiloah

Guest
#401
#401
danschance said:
"Under the sun" is a phrase from Eccl. Show me from that book what it means? How does the author use this phrase? How did people of that time consider this phrase?

Maybe you could actually read this book so you get a good feel for this book. It has always been one of my favorite books. Cuz your comments about this book reek of ignorance.
Click to expand...
You ignore all the other proofs that have been presented to you scripturally and now you're trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.

Obviously, you have no idea how your arguments reek of far worse than ignorance. You knowingly and consciously ignore proofs presented to you straight from scriptures so many times I've lost count. All I can deduce is that you cannot concede when the other side of an issue proves you wrong because your pride is apparently far more important to you than truth. I'd rather see blatant ignorance any day then willfully ignoring the truth. Everything you ask has been covered. It's your baby now. You will believe what you want, but it will still be a lie based on all the scriptures already presented to you.

But hey, keep it up. You sure make the argument against an eternal torture chamber look good with your ridiculous comebacks.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#402
#402
Shiloah said:
You ignore all the other proofs that have been presented to you scripturally and now you're trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.

Obviously, you have no idea how your arguments reek of far worse than ignorance. You knowingly and consciously ignore proofs presented to you straight from scriptures so many times I've lost count. All I can deduce is that you cannot concede when the other side of an issue proves you wrong because your pride is apparently far more important to you than truth. I'd rather see blatant ignorance any day then willfully ignoring the truth. Everything you ask has been covered. It's your baby now. You will believe what you want, but it will still be a lie based on all the scriptures already presented to you.

But hey, keep it up. You sure make the argument against an eternal torture chamber look good with your ridiculous comebacks.
Click to expand...
You know what is odd? You claim I am ignoring "proofs". I am asking you to look at what you call a "proof". That is like saying "I asked you to fix my car", while I am changing the oil.

You have not answered my last post. I assume you can't?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

Shiloah

Guest
#403
#403
cfultz3 said:
Shiloah,

Perhaps, if you are talking about G165, you mean only "age"? And if you are talking about G166, you mean only "perpetual"? G165 is a noun and G166 is an adjective. However, your definition has it as a verb, and potentially, an adverb.

When we start expanding meanings for whatever purpose, as making it say "lasting for an age", we change the concept of that particular word. Allow me to explain.

There are 5 verses with G165 and G166 within them. For my explanation, I will use Luke 18:30.



Would it be logical to say, "...and in the world to come, which will only last for an age, everlasting life"?

If the world to come will only last for a time, then we are all in trouble, seeing that it too will come to an end.

Likewise, if G165/166 implies "perpetuity within limits", then when does "eternity" end?

Christ gives us hope of everlasting life without end, let us not cap His promise.
Click to expand...
Sorry cfultz, didn't see your post until now. Here's my reasoning.

 The Meaning of "Eternal."

Many reason that "if the word ‘eternal’ means without end when applied to the future blessedness of believers, it must follow, unless clear evidence is given to the contrary, that this word also means without end when used to describe the future punishment of the lost."

Here is your argument: "If aionion describes life which is endless, so must aionios describe endless punishment. This reasoning fails to recognize that what determines the meaning of "eternal" is the object being qualified. If the object is the life granted by God to believers (John 3:16), then the word "eternal" obviously means "unending, everlasting," because the Scripture tells us that the "mortal nature" of believers will be made "immortal" by Christ at His Coming (1 Cor 15:53).

On the other hand, if the object being qualified is the "punishment" or "destruction" of the lost, then "eternal" can only mean "permanent, total, final," because nowhere does the Scripture teach that the wicked will be resurrected immortal to be able to suffer forever. Eternal punishment requires either the natural possession of an immortal nature or the divine bestowal of an immortal nature at the time the punishment is inflicted. Nowhere does the Scripture teach that either of these conditions exists.
The punishment of the wicked is eternal both in quality and quantity. It is "eternal" in quality because it belongs to the Age to Come. It is "eternal" in quantity because its results will never end. Like "eternal judgment" (Heb 6:2), "eternal redemption" (Heb 9:12), and "eternal salvation" (Heb 5:9)—all of which are eternal in the results of actions once completed—so "eternal punishment" is eternal in its results: the complete and irreversible destruction of the wicked.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

Shiloah

Guest
#404
#404
danschance said:
You know what is odd? You claim I am ignoring "proofs". I am asking you to look at what you call a "proof". That is like saying "I asked you to fix my car", while I am changing the oil.

You have not answered my last post. I assume you can't?
Click to expand...
Decided I won't cause it's meaningless. Decided to not answer questions that have nothing to do with the subject. They're just red herrings and are a total waste of time.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#405
#405
So I guess y'all are saying that Jesus just let one slip and didn't really mean what He said. The Devil has been trying to prove Him a lie from the get go. Some are helping. Post # 331.
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
#406
#406
Kerry said:
So I guess y'all are saying that Jesus just let one slip and didn't really mean what He said. The Devil has been trying to prove Him a lie from the get go. Some are helping. Post # 331.
Click to expand...
I'm proving Christ a lie by saying hellfire is not eternal torment? I confess Christ is Lord and the only way to the Father and that I love Him more than life, but I've got to believe in your lie or else? I'll never believe in this lie, for it's a perfect example of the lies told by people like you that make those little ones fall.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#407
#407
Shiloah said:
Decided I won't cause it's meaningless. Decided to not answer questions that have nothing to do with the subject. They're just red herrings and are a total waste of time.
Click to expand...
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For the living know they will die; [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]but the dead do not know anything, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]nor have they any longer a reward, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]for their memory is forgotten.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Eccl. 9:5[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Right. Because you know this verse does not support what you believe. You believe there is a reward (so do I). You believe God will never forget the dead (so do I).[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But this actually says the opposite unless you take it in the context to which it was written.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you believe the dead know nothing and use this verse to prove it, then you are cutting your throat. Because then you must be agreeing with the rest of this verse, that the dead are forgotten and the have no reward.[/FONT]
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
#408
#408
Christ came to save us from dying forever. He said Himself that He didn't come to condemn us, that we were already condemned; He came to save us. We should follow Him not because we're threatened with eternal torment, but because He came to give us LIFE, and He suffered and died on that cross so we might LIVE. He rescued us from hopelessness which culminates in eternal destruction. Again, we follow Him because HE is worth everything He desires, which is for humanity not to perish, but to have everlasting life through HIM. HE is our magnificent reward.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#409
#409
Shiloah said:
I'm proving Christ a lie by saying hellfire is not eternal torment? I confess Christ is Lord and the only way to the Father and that I love Him more than life, but I've got to believe in your lie or else? I'll never believe in this lie, for it's a perfect example of the lies told by people like you that make those little ones fall.
Click to expand...
Good way of avoiding the question. Jesus was called a liar to by the religious institution of His day. I am glad that you accept Jesus. But tell me what profit or fruit is there to this doctrine. Think of what you are saying to those who do not accept Christ. You are telling them that there is another way out. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. Do not atheist believe that we die and that's it, no after life at all. Don't you think that satan loves the fact that he has deceived many into total annihilation. I am doing my best to protect the little ones as only I can With His help. Think of what you are telling the sinner. Shiloah I love you and I want to help you, But only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes as I need mine opened. The Holy Spirit always points to the cross. This doctrine that you are spreading points to another way that sinners can escape.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#410
#410
Everybody loves the Lamb. Soft, cuddly, accepting everyone. Which is true about the lamb. The Lamb never bites. But, I must tell you that LION of the tribe of Judah is on His way and He rules with a rod of Iron and grace is no more only Judgement. Now If we place our faith in the Lamb we escape (saved) from the Lion. Please accept the Lamb before it is to late.
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
#411
#411
Kerry said:
Good way of avoiding the question. Jesus was called a liar to by the religious institution of His day. I am glad that you accept Jesus. But tell me what profit or fruit is there to this doctrine. Think of what you are saying to those who do not accept Christ. You are telling them that there is another way out. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. Do not atheist believe that we die and that's it, no after life at all. Don't you think that satan loves the fact that he has deceived many into total annihilation. I am doing my best to protect the little ones as only I can With His help. Think of what you are telling the sinner. Shiloah I love you and I want to help you, But only the Holy Spirit can open your eyes as I need mine opened. The Holy Spirit always points to the cross. This doctrine that you are spreading points to another way that sinners can escape.
Click to expand...

Number 1) The reason to correct the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is because it's a lie. 2) It defines God as an evil tyrant that punishes mortal's for a never-ending period of time for bad decisions made within their short lifetime on this earth. It contradicts the righteous and compassionate nature of God. 3) The belief in the annihilation of the wicked DOES NOT teach that sinners escape unscathed. Sinners die and then are resurrected at the time God deems for the wicked dead to be resurrected. At that time, they stand before the judgement and are condemned, at which time they are separated as the wheat are from the tares and they are thrown into the fire which is unquenchable, which is-- the hellfire you so love to preach represents never-ending conscious torment. Oh yes, there will be the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Can you imagine seeing with your own eyes Christ in all His glory and know you rejected Him? And then? They are thrown into that fire and they burn up. They become "ashes beneath our feet," just like scriptures say. Surely you know enough about the Bible to connect all I've said with the scriptures that confirm them. If not, look um up. It's up to you to care enough about truth to search it out.

My eyes are wide open Kerry. The Holy Spirit opened them for me early on in life long before I discovered that all the verses pertaining to death and hellfire in the ENTIRE Bible fit together perfectly when examined closely from this standpoint. Have you even bothered to read through the posts on this thread which lay out enough reasoning combined with verses to prove, in themselves, what I claim? I'm sure you have not. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking me the same questions that have been answered by way of those verses.

I hate the doctrine of eternal torment because it's a lie against my God. Any human being with the conscience God gave them knows it contradicts the belief in a just and merciful God. I absolutely believe it comes straight from the mouth of Satan.

So yeah, it's important to me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
K

Kerry

Guest
#412
#412
Shiloah said:
Number 1) The reason to correct the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is because it's a lie. 2) It defines God as an evil tyrant that punishes mortal's for a never-ending period of time for bad decisions made within their short lifetime on this earth. It contradicts the righteous and compassionate nature of God. 3) The belief in the annihilation of the wicked DOES NOT teach that sinners escape unscathed. Sinners die and then are resurrected at the time God deems for the wicked dead to be resurrected. At that time, they stand before the judgement and are condemned, at which time they are separated as the wheat are from the tares and they are thrown into the fire which is unquenchable, which is-- the hellfire you so love to preach represents never-ending conscious torment. Oh yes, there will be the weeping and gnashing of teeth. Can you imagine seeing with your own eyes Christ in all His glory and know you rejected Him? And then? They are thrown into that fire and they burn up. They become "ashes beneath our feet," just like scriptures say. Surely you know enough about the Bible to connect all I've said with the scriptures that confirm them. If not, look um up. It's up to you to care enough about truth to search it out.

My eyes are wide open Kerry. The Holy Spirit opened them for me early on in life long before I discovered that all the verses pertaining to death and hellfire n the ENTIRE Bible fit together perfectly when examined closely from this standpoint. Have you even bothered to read through the posts on this thread which lay out enough reasoning combined with verses to prove, in themselves, what I claim? I'm sure you have not. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking me the same questions that have been answered by way of those verses.

I hate the doctrine of eternal torment because it's a lie against my God. Any human being with the conscience God gave them knows it contradicts the belief in a just and merciful God. I absolutely believe it comes straight from the mouth of Satan.

So yeah, it's important to me.
Click to expand...
So, I should rape,kill, cheat, advance my greed and live it up with women, drugs, rock and roll. Enjoy my life now. Cause what they hey. I'm going to burnt up anyway and in a thousand years who is going to care. Tell me why should I trust in your God. Why not exploit this world, why not. I am going to be destroyed anyway. Shoot, cast me in a fire that takes away my pain and I feel nothing any more. Criminals and atheist applaud you. Tell that to the Lion.
 
S

Shiloah

Guest
#413
#413
Kerry said:
So, I should rape,kill, cheat, advance my greed and live it up with women, drugs, rock and roll. Enjoy my life now. Cause what they hey. I'm going to burnt up anyway and in a thousand years who is going to care. Tell me why should I trust in your God. Why not exploit this world, why not. I am going to be destroyed anyway. Shoot, cast me in a fire that takes away my pain and I feel nothing any more. Criminals and atheist applaud you. Tell that to the Lion.
Click to expand...
Well if all you're following God for is to escape eternal torment, you've obviously missed the mark. I'm done with this thread.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#414
#414
This is what a sinner would say. WHERE DO I SIGN. Think of what you are spreading. Solomon would say eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
 
N

notconformed2theworld

Guest
#415
#415
Matthew 25:46 NKJV

And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#416
#416
Shiloah, I don't apologize for defending the word of God. But, i do feel sorrow in my heart. What we were debating is bigger that you and I. Everyone who post on this site is a preacher. Like it or not. Peachers are held more accountable than anyone. I know we just through our Ideas out there and repeat what we have been taught. That doe's not negate the word of God. I myself have found things that I believed and trusted to be false. The ultimate goal of our walk is to find truth. The only place to find it is at the Cross. We must not rely on our intellect or what man has taught us. The truth is the word and His Holy Spirit and nothing else. I trust that I have deterred you from faith in Him. My only Goal is to portray the word and His work to my best ability and rely on Him to do that very act. I'm sorry if I have offended you. But, I must defend the Word of God. Because I, just as you will stand before Him and He will say, why did you not speak the truth while you knew the truth and did not say it. He will say, if you have not known the truth then I would not hold against you but, yet you knew and did not speak. I feel like Jeremiah who spoke to deaf ears. Though they would not listen , He spoke anyway. He told them not to go to Egypt and begged them not. Yet they went anyway and died there. Please, I am only trying to help and not condemn. Seek the Lord always and put your trust in Him. The Lion is on His way. what will we say to Him. I gave people another way other than you. Shiloah please listen to reason and seek God always.
 
R

rstrats

Senior Member
#417
Aug 28, 2011
744
43
28
#417
notconformed2theworld,

re: " And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Correct, the righteous will have eternal life and the "these" will have the opposite - eternal death.
 
R

rstrats

Senior Member
#418
Aug 28, 2011
744
43
28
#418
Kerry,

So you think being tortured 24/7 for eternity is the appropriate sentence for living it up with rock and roll? Why do you want to believe that?
 
L

leonardronaldo

Guest
#419
#419
Just a thought:
How does it 'seem unjust' for God to punish eternally those who reject His Son and His Spirit of Truth?
How is it just for God to justify and later glorify eternally the other wicked sinners, but did the opposite of the first question?
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#420
#420
rstrats said:
Kerry,

So you think being tortured 24/7 for eternity is the appropriate sentence for living it up with rock and roll? Why do you want to believe that?
Click to expand...
My friend its not what I think. It is the word of God. Stop blaming me and blame the word. Because that is what you are fighting and not me. I only present the word and the offense falls where it may.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.