Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
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L
Ok. But there is a personal angel which is named Michael, you know that right?
Well Jesus was a man, but He is also God. That's what the JW reject, I supposed.
What I believe is wrong, is making personal Jesus equal as personal Michael the archangel.
Every name in the Bible has a 'message' (i think that's the more correct term you should use rather than the messenger) , i agree.
Well Jesus was a man, but He is also God. That's what the JW reject, I supposed.
What I believe is wrong, is making personal Jesus equal as personal Michael the archangel.
Every name in the Bible has a 'message' (i think that's the more correct term you should use rather than the messenger) , i agree.
C
Thanks for replying.
Perhaps, that reasoning comes from the notion that if it means 'perpetual' when it is applied to God, and to His coming Kingdom, and to the saints, then it also must mean the same when applied to Satan and the wicked. When we start to negate its meaning when speaking of the wicked, then we are left in doubt when it comes to Jesus having said that He came to give everlasting life to those belonging to Him. Inasmuch as one can negate it when it comes to the wicked, then it would not be too far fetched to say that one can even negate it when it comes to, at least, the saints.
Nevertheless, we are given clear evidence that the worm/fire of the wicked shall never die/be quenched (Mar 9:44, 46, 48). Of which verses, we are given certain knowledge. Let us take into consideration the word for 'not'. From the Greek, we understand that this word is the absolute negative, as oppose to the subjunctive G3361. From that, we can gather that whatever it negates is absolutely true.
Now, let us take the word for "die" (the same is applied to 'fire' in like manner). In the Greek, it means "to finish life", the very meaning we understand it to be. If we were to couple this with the absolute negative which is present with it, we begin to see that it is saying "their worm shall never finish life". In other words, its life is perpetual. As far as that goes, it can be said, "the fire shall never be put out".
And to understand that it is speaking about the wicked in the Age to come, we should go to where it was originally spoken about in Isaiah 66:22-24. From verse 22 we see the new Heaven and the new Earth being spoken about. Verse 23 speaks about God in the new Jerusalem being worshiped and it would be save to assume that that worship is forevermore. As far as verse 24 goes, there is no indication given that the wicked shall cease to exist. But, it does STATE that their worm shall never cease to live.
A question needing to be answered: if the wicked, at some point, ceases to exist, then what purpose does it serve to say their worm and the fire will never cease to exist (perpetual), when it could have stated "until the wicked are no more"? Yet, it does state that the worm and fire are forevermore.
Thus far, we have "eternal/everlasting" meaning "perpetual" when it comes to the Godhead, to the Age to come, and to the saints. But, on the other hand, is it to change its meaning to "set or proper time" (G2540) in order to accommodate the notion that the wicked will cease to exist? But, if we are given over to the understanding found in Revelation 11:18 that "destroy" does not necessarily mean to "vanquish", inasmuch as people cannot "vanquish" the Earth, then we began to understand that "destroy" means,"to ruin, to thoroughly rot", as per its Greek definition.
This reasoning I find to be wanting: if the wicked is to be resurrected (brought up from the abode of the dead) for judgment, then they must presently exist and thus, already immortal. If they are not immortal, then it can only be concluded that God will re-create their souls for the sole purpose of handing down a sentencing of "die again". Then again, if the soul of any human is not immortal, then even the righteous are dead and according to Ecc, they too are forgotten and are not rewarded, seeing that it is being said that the soul is mortal. It is far more pausable to say that we are immortal, then to say that all souls will have to be re-created for judgment and then the wicked will be turned back into mortal souls so that they can die again. If the soul is mortal, then what purpose does it serve for God to "reanimate" them, if they are already dead?
Allow me to dissect Revelation 14:11. In speaking of any man receiving the mark of the beast and being thrown into the lake of fire, it is stated:
There are several things to take note of:
1) The present indicative of "smoke does ascent". The present indicative tells us that it is a present action with every indication of continuing unless stopped. As in, "he smokes cigarettes" (implying he smokes now and in the future unless something changes). So, we are given the understanding that the smoke, when the time comes, will continue to ascend unless stopped.
2) We are not given a time frame as to when the smoke shall be stopped, seeing that it shall continue into "ages of ages". This is the same as us saying, "eons upon eons". The same doubling of "age" can also be understood when Scripture speaks about Christ's Kingdom enduring "into the ages of the Age". When Christ's kingdom is set up, it will endure into the ages after that Age (perpetually). Likewise, the smoke of their torment can be understood as lasting "into the ages of all ages" (including the Age to come).
3) From the present indicative of "they do have rest", coupled with the ABSOLUTE NEGATIVE, we understand that they will have absolutely no rest in the present and with every indication of its continuance into the future unless stopped. And we understand from "ages of ages" no indication is given concerning a break. In fact, "of day and night", tells us it will be a continuous moment in eternity, inasmuch as eternity lacks the concept of time.
Perhaps, that reasoning comes from the notion that if it means 'perpetual' when it is applied to God, and to His coming Kingdom, and to the saints, then it also must mean the same when applied to Satan and the wicked. When we start to negate its meaning when speaking of the wicked, then we are left in doubt when it comes to Jesus having said that He came to give everlasting life to those belonging to Him. Inasmuch as one can negate it when it comes to the wicked, then it would not be too far fetched to say that one can even negate it when it comes to, at least, the saints.
Nevertheless, we are given clear evidence that the worm/fire of the wicked shall never die/be quenched (Mar 9:44, 46, 48). Of which verses, we are given certain knowledge. Let us take into consideration the word for 'not'. From the Greek, we understand that this word is the absolute negative, as oppose to the subjunctive G3361. From that, we can gather that whatever it negates is absolutely true.
Now, let us take the word for "die" (the same is applied to 'fire' in like manner). In the Greek, it means "to finish life", the very meaning we understand it to be. If we were to couple this with the absolute negative which is present with it, we begin to see that it is saying "their worm shall never finish life". In other words, its life is perpetual. As far as that goes, it can be said, "the fire shall never be put out".
And to understand that it is speaking about the wicked in the Age to come, we should go to where it was originally spoken about in Isaiah 66:22-24. From verse 22 we see the new Heaven and the new Earth being spoken about. Verse 23 speaks about God in the new Jerusalem being worshiped and it would be save to assume that that worship is forevermore. As far as verse 24 goes, there is no indication given that the wicked shall cease to exist. But, it does STATE that their worm shall never cease to live.
A question needing to be answered: if the wicked, at some point, ceases to exist, then what purpose does it serve to say their worm and the fire will never cease to exist (perpetual), when it could have stated "until the wicked are no more"? Yet, it does state that the worm and fire are forevermore.
Thus far, we have "eternal/everlasting" meaning "perpetual" when it comes to the Godhead, to the Age to come, and to the saints. But, on the other hand, is it to change its meaning to "set or proper time" (G2540) in order to accommodate the notion that the wicked will cease to exist? But, if we are given over to the understanding found in Revelation 11:18 that "destroy" does not necessarily mean to "vanquish", inasmuch as people cannot "vanquish" the Earth, then we began to understand that "destroy" means,"to ruin, to thoroughly rot", as per its Greek definition.
This reasoning I find to be wanting: if the wicked is to be resurrected (brought up from the abode of the dead) for judgment, then they must presently exist and thus, already immortal. If they are not immortal, then it can only be concluded that God will re-create their souls for the sole purpose of handing down a sentencing of "die again". Then again, if the soul of any human is not immortal, then even the righteous are dead and according to Ecc, they too are forgotten and are not rewarded, seeing that it is being said that the soul is mortal. It is far more pausable to say that we are immortal, then to say that all souls will have to be re-created for judgment and then the wicked will be turned back into mortal souls so that they can die again. If the soul is mortal, then what purpose does it serve for God to "reanimate" them, if they are already dead?
Allow me to dissect Revelation 14:11. In speaking of any man receiving the mark of the beast and being thrown into the lake of fire, it is stated:
There are several things to take note of:
1) The present indicative of "smoke does ascent". The present indicative tells us that it is a present action with every indication of continuing unless stopped. As in, "he smokes cigarettes" (implying he smokes now and in the future unless something changes). So, we are given the understanding that the smoke, when the time comes, will continue to ascend unless stopped.
2) We are not given a time frame as to when the smoke shall be stopped, seeing that it shall continue into "ages of ages". This is the same as us saying, "eons upon eons". The same doubling of "age" can also be understood when Scripture speaks about Christ's Kingdom enduring "into the ages of the Age". When Christ's kingdom is set up, it will endure into the ages after that Age (perpetually). Likewise, the smoke of their torment can be understood as lasting "into the ages of all ages" (including the Age to come).
3) From the present indicative of "they do have rest", coupled with the ABSOLUTE NEGATIVE, we understand that they will have absolutely no rest in the present and with every indication of its continuance into the future unless stopped. And we understand from "ages of ages" no indication is given concerning a break. In fact, "of day and night", tells us it will be a continuous moment in eternity, inasmuch as eternity lacks the concept of time.
E
An angel is a communication conduit, alive, but not a decision making entity.
When an angel is fallen, it's because of our own rebellion, not the angel's.
A fallen angel is a misunderstanding of an established message from God.
And God can make an angel appear as a thought in your head, a face in your imagination, a character in a dream, or even as a free-standing visible humanoid. But it's always the source of it that has the conscious, not the angel itself.
Think of when you meet a person of the opposite sex, and before you even say a word, some seemingly invisible "thing" causes what we call "chemistry". That's a messenger proper, it isn't free-thinking of itself, but it comes out of both people and the other knows it.
It's how we'll know our soul-mate in the resurrection. Like "angels". We'll just know. No "marriage" auditions.
Totally totally off topic now. If you wanna hear more of my anti-halo-and-wings stance, jump over and post a heads up in that angel thread. Sorry for off-topic.
When an angel is fallen, it's because of our own rebellion, not the angel's.
A fallen angel is a misunderstanding of an established message from God.
And God can make an angel appear as a thought in your head, a face in your imagination, a character in a dream, or even as a free-standing visible humanoid. But it's always the source of it that has the conscious, not the angel itself.
Think of when you meet a person of the opposite sex, and before you even say a word, some seemingly invisible "thing" causes what we call "chemistry". That's a messenger proper, it isn't free-thinking of itself, but it comes out of both people and the other knows it.
It's how we'll know our soul-mate in the resurrection. Like "angels". We'll just know. No "marriage" auditions.
Totally totally off topic now. If you wanna hear more of my anti-halo-and-wings stance, jump over and post a heads up in that angel thread. Sorry for off-topic.
S
Well I presently exist and I'm not immortal. I've heard some people describe this type of "perpetuity" in the Greek sense as "as long as life shall last." Hence, immortal life given by Christ will obviously last forever. However, death also lasts forever.
The smoke may well ascend for an age or it might even ascend forever. What happens with smoke rising has nothing to with an unquenchable fire which burns until everything is consumed as is said of the Sodom and Gomorrah fire that obviously is not still burning yet was called eternal.
The smoke may well ascend for an age or it might even ascend forever. What happens with smoke rising has nothing to with an unquenchable fire which burns until everything is consumed as is said of the Sodom and Gomorrah fire that obviously is not still burning yet was called eternal.
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S
I think Samuel's mother said she was going to take Samuel to the temple where he would then abide "forever." Is he still there? Jonah also said he was in the belly of the whale "forever." Is he still there? Obviously, there are problems that resulted in translations. Very often there are words in a language being translated from that in the language translated into, no words exist that with full accuracy, translate those original words.
S
I'm sorry, but this belief is totally bogus. You're actually claiming that Michael is not a real person? That's he's a thought or an action? That is so entirely off the wall unbiblical reasoning. So let me guess, Jesus is also a thought or action on our part? Wow. This is phenomenal that you're claiming this.
C
From dust we came, to dust we return. And one day, there shall even be a new Heaven and a new Earth. All is vanity, says the Preacher.
The righteous of the Law even went to Hades, the abode of the dead. Jesus went to them and preached His Good News of Him being their Messiah. The LORD God allowed Him not to see corruption, He preached not to the damned.
If your Lord, my Lord, went to them to preach, they who He preached to must have had been aware of Him being there, or least, had ears to hear Him.
Of the second death, it is said: they shall receive an everlasting destruction from the PRESENCE of the Lord.
Their everlasting abode: Hades, without a messiah ever coming to deliver them, as the one true Messiah came to preach to the righteous dead of the Law.
They who heard Him was resurrected with Him during His resurrection.
The righteous of the Law even went to Hades, the abode of the dead. Jesus went to them and preached His Good News of Him being their Messiah. The LORD God allowed Him not to see corruption, He preached not to the damned.
If your Lord, my Lord, went to them to preach, they who He preached to must have had been aware of Him being there, or least, had ears to hear Him.
Of the second death, it is said: they shall receive an everlasting destruction from the PRESENCE of the Lord.
Their everlasting abode: Hades, without a messiah ever coming to deliver them, as the one true Messiah came to preach to the righteous dead of the Law.
They who heard Him was resurrected with Him during His resurrection.
S
I don't interpret that verse that says Jesus preached to the lost when He was dead as Jesus actually went to a literal place called hell and preached. I believe that verse has to do with Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus was said to be in the grave for three days, just like Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days. Second death means literally the second DEATH. If God didn't mean that, He would have said they will descend into eternal torment. We will be resurrected at the last trump.
1 Thessalonians 4
13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
This is how it happens in exact order. That's why the verse says "we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep." It says exactly what it means. To say it doesn't mean sleep in death is to say it doesn't say what it means. It says NOTHING about undead spirits or souls being alive somewhere else.
1 Thessalonians 4
13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.
This is how it happens in exact order. That's why the verse says "we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep." It says exactly what it means. To say it doesn't mean sleep in death is to say it doesn't say what it means. It says NOTHING about undead spirits or souls being alive somewhere else.
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D
cfultz
"The righteous of the Law even went to Hades, the abode of the dead. Jesus went to them and preached His Good News of Him being their Messiah. The LORD God allowed Him not to see corruption, He preached not to the damned."
I agree with Shiloah. Why do we have to interpret that passage literally? I think it means Jesus went to Disneyland and preached on the ride "Pirates of the Caribbean", cuz it is all underground, except for the entrance. Where it says he let the captives go, that means he helped them get off the boat and had pizza with them..and probably gave the kids candy and balloons.
"The righteous of the Law even went to Hades, the abode of the dead. Jesus went to them and preached His Good News of Him being their Messiah. The LORD God allowed Him not to see corruption, He preached not to the damned."
I agree with Shiloah. Why do we have to interpret that passage literally? I think it means Jesus went to Disneyland and preached on the ride "Pirates of the Caribbean", cuz it is all underground, except for the entrance. Where it says he let the captives go, that means he helped them get off the boat and had pizza with them..and probably gave the kids candy and balloons.
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S
That is another issue entirely whether Jesus was preaching to actual people in hell or does that verse mean something else. It's another whole study in itself. So why would I bother presenting that to you, Danchance? You don't study. You just have opinions.
For cfultz, I might dig up the other side of the argument regarding that verse about Jesus preaching to the dead. It just takes some doing, cfultz, as again, it's a study unto itself.
For cfultz, I might dig up the other side of the argument regarding that verse about Jesus preaching to the dead. It just takes some doing, cfultz, as again, it's a study unto itself.