Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?
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D
That is another issue entirely whether Jesus was preaching to actual people in hell or does that verse mean something else. It's another whole study in itself. So why would I bother presenting that to you, Danchance? You don't study. You just have opinions.
For cfultz, I might dig up the other side of the argument regarding that verse about Jesus preaching to the dead. It just takes some doing, cfultz, as again, it's a study unto itself.
For cfultz, I might dig up the other side of the argument regarding that verse about Jesus preaching to the dead. It just takes some doing, cfultz, as again, it's a study unto itself.
C
I think Samuel's mother said she was going to take Samuel to the temple where he would then abide "forever." Is he still there? Jonah also said he was in the belly of the whale "forever." Is he still there? Obviously, there are problems that resulted in translations. Very often there are words in a language being translated from that in the language translated into, no words exist that with full accuracy, translate those original words.
1 Samuel 1:22 tells us that Jonah's mother were to have brought him up into the temple of the LORD to serve Him forever. But, we both know that fleshly beings do not live forever (perpetually). So, it is clear that the translation from the KJV which implies he was to serve forever is incorrect. With further investigation, I saw where H5769 (in 15 verses) can also be translated "evermore".
If we were to replace "for ever" with "for evermore", we would get a more proper understanding that after he was weaned, he was to serve the LORD for (H5704) evermore (H5769). Which then implies, "from that time forward".
As to the second questionable translation, notice the word "earth" in Jonah 2:6. It is speaking about "dry land", the land of the living. Jonah symbolically went to the abyss. In that abyss, the earth served as a prism which separated the living from the dead, a prism which could not be passed. No matter where he went in the abyss that prism was there. Much in the same way the prism Jesus was talking about which separated the damned from those who were in Paradise, Abraham's Bosom.
S
Here’s a piece from an article that explains the other side of the “Jesus preaching to the dead” concept.
1 Peter 3:18–20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
It would seem that a text with such varying interpretations and controversy must be ambiguous in nature, or else the world’s churches would reach a consensus about its meaning. Yet, when the context of the passage is considered, it becomes unmistakably clear. When we read the verses both prior to and following the verse in question, the passage states:
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water” (1 Peter 3:18–20).
Truly, the passage is referring to Jesus Christ, and it does plainly say that he preached to spirits in prison. However, it also removes the guessing that leads to the conflicting interpretations. It says that Christ died but was made alive again through the Spirit of God, “by whom” He preached to spirits in prison. So we know that the one who did the preaching was actually the Holy Spirit, not Christ directly. The Spirit speaks the words given to Him by Christ (see John 16:13), and therefore is Christ’s representative (but nonetheless a distinct entity of God). We therefore know that the passage cannot mean that Jesus descended into hell to preach, because it was the Holy Spirit that did the preaching, not Jesus.
But when, and where, is this prison, and who are the spirits to whom the Holy Spirit preached the words of Christ? Verse 20 provides the answer.
The spirits “were formally disobedient.” Disobedience to God is sin. The Bible clearly states that sinners in open rebellion toward God are “slaves to sin,” or prisoners of unrighteousness (see Romans 6:16). For additional texts where prisoner imagery is used to describe the condition of sin, see Psalm 142:7, Isaiah 42:6, 7, and Luke 4:18. So the “spirits in prison” are those in rebellion against God, or sinners.
When did the Holy Spirit preach to sinners? Can we know whether these sinners were alive or dead when this occurred? The passage continues to talk explicitly about the “days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared.”
The passage, in its proper context, is describing Christ’s ministry, through the person of the Holy Spirit, to reach sinners in the time of Noah, before the flood. Nowhere does the passage give us license to send Jesus to hell in between the cross and the resurrection, nor does it allow us to make the “prison” a heavenly learning ground after death. The passage is clear: the Holy Spirit preached to sinners in the days of Noah before the flood.
To further clarify this point, Peter continues his argument in verse 21 by stating: “There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).
An antitype is a prophetic fulfillment. Peter says that, just as the eight souls were saved “through water” on the ark, in the same way we are now saved by baptism through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The water washed away the filth from the earth in Noah’s day, and the water symbolically washes away our guilt through Christ’s sacrifice. The Holy Spirit is involved in both processes: He preached to sinners to try to save them before the flood, and He preaches to us to bring us to repentance and baptism (see John 16:8, 9).
In light of this comparison to baptism, there cannot be any other meaning to the text in question except that the Spirit preached to sinners in Noah’s day. The flood is significant to the point Peter is making. Without it, any comparison to an “antitype” in baptism is meaningless. Certainly, baptism cannot be compared to the fires of hell! When we understand this meaning, it becomes clear that this text cannot be used to support any theology about death or the afterlife at all.
1 Peter 3:18–20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
It would seem that a text with such varying interpretations and controversy must be ambiguous in nature, or else the world’s churches would reach a consensus about its meaning. Yet, when the context of the passage is considered, it becomes unmistakably clear. When we read the verses both prior to and following the verse in question, the passage states:
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water” (1 Peter 3:18–20).
Truly, the passage is referring to Jesus Christ, and it does plainly say that he preached to spirits in prison. However, it also removes the guessing that leads to the conflicting interpretations. It says that Christ died but was made alive again through the Spirit of God, “by whom” He preached to spirits in prison. So we know that the one who did the preaching was actually the Holy Spirit, not Christ directly. The Spirit speaks the words given to Him by Christ (see John 16:13), and therefore is Christ’s representative (but nonetheless a distinct entity of God). We therefore know that the passage cannot mean that Jesus descended into hell to preach, because it was the Holy Spirit that did the preaching, not Jesus.
But when, and where, is this prison, and who are the spirits to whom the Holy Spirit preached the words of Christ? Verse 20 provides the answer.
The spirits “were formally disobedient.” Disobedience to God is sin. The Bible clearly states that sinners in open rebellion toward God are “slaves to sin,” or prisoners of unrighteousness (see Romans 6:16). For additional texts where prisoner imagery is used to describe the condition of sin, see Psalm 142:7, Isaiah 42:6, 7, and Luke 4:18. So the “spirits in prison” are those in rebellion against God, or sinners.
When did the Holy Spirit preach to sinners? Can we know whether these sinners were alive or dead when this occurred? The passage continues to talk explicitly about the “days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared.”
The passage, in its proper context, is describing Christ’s ministry, through the person of the Holy Spirit, to reach sinners in the time of Noah, before the flood. Nowhere does the passage give us license to send Jesus to hell in between the cross and the resurrection, nor does it allow us to make the “prison” a heavenly learning ground after death. The passage is clear: the Holy Spirit preached to sinners in the days of Noah before the flood.
To further clarify this point, Peter continues his argument in verse 21 by stating: “There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21).
An antitype is a prophetic fulfillment. Peter says that, just as the eight souls were saved “through water” on the ark, in the same way we are now saved by baptism through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The water washed away the filth from the earth in Noah’s day, and the water symbolically washes away our guilt through Christ’s sacrifice. The Holy Spirit is involved in both processes: He preached to sinners to try to save them before the flood, and He preaches to us to bring us to repentance and baptism (see John 16:8, 9).
In light of this comparison to baptism, there cannot be any other meaning to the text in question except that the Spirit preached to sinners in Noah’s day. The flood is significant to the point Peter is making. Without it, any comparison to an “antitype” in baptism is meaningless. Certainly, baptism cannot be compared to the fires of hell! When we understand this meaning, it becomes clear that this text cannot be used to support any theology about death or the afterlife at all.
C
For cfultz, I might dig up the other side of the argument regarding that verse about Jesus preaching to the dead. It just takes some doing, cfultz, as again, it's a study unto itself.
S
well tbh, I was asking seriously about that. don't understand which part of the question was funny.
he was unclear, and i want to make sure that I get what he said correctly.
he was unclear, and i want to make sure that I get what he said correctly.
Ah well, forget it. I've been accused of having a weird sense of humor at times. I wasn't laughing at you.
S
I agree with you in that there is a problem in translating from one language to another. I also know that you understand that forever in those two verses do not actually mean "eternity/everlasting". With that, I would like to explain how I see it in those two verses.
1 Samuel 1:22 tells us that Jonah's mother were to have brought him up into the temple of the LORD to serve Him forever. But, we both know that fleshly beings do not live forever (perpetually). So, it is clear that the translation from the KJV which implies he was to serve forever is incorrect. With further investigation, I saw where H5769 (in 15 verses) can also be translated "evermore".
If we were to replace "for ever" with "for evermore", we would get a more proper understanding that after he was weaned, he was to serve the LORD for (H5704) evermore (H5769). Which then implies, "from that time forward".
As to the second questionable translation, notice the word "earth" in Jonah 2:6. It is speaking about "dry land", the land of the living. Jonah symbolically went to the abyss. In that abyss, the earth served as a prism which separated the living from the dead, a prism which could not be passed. No matter where he went in the abyss that prism was there. Much in the same way the prism Jesus was talking about which separated the damned from those who were in Paradise, Abraham's Bosom.
1 Samuel 1:22 tells us that Jonah's mother were to have brought him up into the temple of the LORD to serve Him forever. But, we both know that fleshly beings do not live forever (perpetually). So, it is clear that the translation from the KJV which implies he was to serve forever is incorrect. With further investigation, I saw where H5769 (in 15 verses) can also be translated "evermore".
If we were to replace "for ever" with "for evermore", we would get a more proper understanding that after he was weaned, he was to serve the LORD for (H5704) evermore (H5769). Which then implies, "from that time forward".
As to the second questionable translation, notice the word "earth" in Jonah 2:6. It is speaking about "dry land", the land of the living. Jonah symbolically went to the abyss. In that abyss, the earth served as a prism which separated the living from the dead, a prism which could not be passed. No matter where he went in the abyss that prism was there. Much in the same way the prism Jesus was talking about which separated the damned from those who were in Paradise, Abraham's Bosom.
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C
Here’s a piece from an article that explains the other side of the “Jesus preaching to the dead” concept.
1 Peter 3:18–20
Truly, the passage is referring to Jesus Christ, and it does plainly say that he preached to spirits in prison. However, it also removes the guessing that leads to the conflicting interpretations. It says that Christ died but was made alive again through the Spirit of God, “by whom” He preached to spirits in prison. So we know that the one who did the preaching was actually the Holy Spirit, not Christ directly. The Spirit speaks the words given to Him by Christ (see John 16:13), and therefore is Christ’s representative (but nonetheless a distinct entity of God). We therefore know that the passage cannot mean that Jesus descended into hell to preach, because it was the Holy Spirit that did the preaching, not Jesus.
1 Peter 3:18–20
Truly, the passage is referring to Jesus Christ, and it does plainly say that he preached to spirits in prison. However, it also removes the guessing that leads to the conflicting interpretations. It says that Christ died but was made alive again through the Spirit of God, “by whom” He preached to spirits in prison. So we know that the one who did the preaching was actually the Holy Spirit, not Christ directly. The Spirit speaks the words given to Him by Christ (see John 16:13), and therefore is Christ’s representative (but nonetheless a distinct entity of God). We therefore know that the passage cannot mean that Jesus descended into hell to preach, because it was the Holy Spirit that did the preaching, not Jesus.
If you would, let us go ourselves to the Greek and come up with our own conclusion.
The word for "Spirit" is neuter. However, the verb, "having went" is in the masculine. Knowing this, then it could have only been Jesus who went to Hades and not the Holy Spirit.
I am sorry, but whoever wrote this, did not take the time to have simply looked up the personage of the words.
C
Well hey! There you are! For temporal beings, eternity lasts as long as they live! Yeah! But with the Lazarus parable, that's another interpretation issue. There's two sides to that argument as well. Again, I believe that was a parable. The info that explains my position is at least as long as this other post and I've also posted it before. Not sure I should again. Again, it's long and involved.
Pardon me if I gave you a misunderstanding of what I was conveying.
S
God said the dead cease to exist, they have no conscience. That is also why there is no such thing as GHOST.
L
Hi Shiloah,
If you would, let us go ourselves to the Greek and come up with our own conclusion.
The word for "Spirit" is neuter. However, the verb, "having went" is in the masculine. Knowing this, then it could have only been Jesus who went to Hades and not the Holy Spirit.
I am sorry, but whoever wrote this, did not take the time to have simply looked up the personage of the words.
If you would, let us go ourselves to the Greek and come up with our own conclusion.
The word for "Spirit" is neuter. However, the verb, "having went" is in the masculine. Knowing this, then it could have only been Jesus who went to Hades and not the Holy Spirit.
I am sorry, but whoever wrote this, did not take the time to have simply looked up the personage of the words.
spirit (pneuma) is neuter, i agree.
S
Hi Shiloah,
If you would, let us go ourselves to the Greek and come up with our own conclusion.
The word for "Spirit" is neuter. However, the verb, "having went" is in the masculine. Knowing this, then it could have only been Jesus who went to Hades and not the Holy Spirit.
I am sorry, but whoever wrote this, did not take the time to have simply looked up the personage of the words.
If you would, let us go ourselves to the Greek and come up with our own conclusion.
The word for "Spirit" is neuter. However, the verb, "having went" is in the masculine. Knowing this, then it could have only been Jesus who went to Hades and not the Holy Spirit.
I am sorry, but whoever wrote this, did not take the time to have simply looked up the personage of the words.
Whatever.
S
Here's another slant on this issue. It arrives at the same conclusion but explains a little differently. How about let's confront the whole thing and not whether or not some word seems gender associated?
One of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible is found in 1 Peter 3:18-20 which says “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”
What does this verse mean? Did Jesus preach to spirits in hades or hell? Or did He preach to fallen angels? Or does this verse mean something completely different? How can we understand this passage of Scripture? When we look at 1 Peter 3:18-20 we must ask a few questions.
How did Jesus preach to these spirits in prison?
Q: How did Jesus preach to these spirits in prison?
Some think that this verse means that when Christ died on the cross that he went to hades and preached to the spirits in prison. However the word hades or hell is not in the text. Let’s take the verse slowly and see what it means…
One of the keys is verse 18-19 which says ” being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, [SUP]19 [/SUP]by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,” the question is who is the individual mentioned in the words “by whom” found in verse 19?
If you read the verse it says “by the Spirit, [SUP]19 [/SUP]by whom” Thus the “by whom” is the Holy Spirit. So with that in mind the verse says the following that Christ by the Holy Spirit “went and preached to the spirits in prison”. OK that makes it a little clearer. But that begs the question…
Q: When did Christ preach to these individuals by the Holy Spirit?
The verse says that Christ by the Holy Spirit “went and preached to the spirits in prison, [SUP]20 [/SUP]who formerly were disobedient,” when? The verse states ” when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.” So Christ by the Holy Spirit preached to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared. Thus this happened before Jesus came as a man.
Q: But who are these spirits in prison during the days of Noah?
Well the Bible tells us Satan has “made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities,” and “did not open the house of his prisoners“. (Isaiah 14:17) So Satan is the one keeping these prisoners. Prisoners have no freedom. Who is it whom Satan is trying to take captive? Humans of course. Thus, the prisoners are actually humans who are bound to sin. Jesus said “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin” (John 8:34). Slaves are not free, and whoever commits sin is a slave or prisoner to sin, they have no freedom. There is only one who can set us free, “if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (John 8:36). Jesus is the only one who can set us free from the prison of sin. This is His mission. One day Jesus stood up to read and He declared of Himself…
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”” (Luke 4:18-19)
Praise be to Jesus who can set us free from the prison of sin!
Therefore, Jesus by the Holy Spirit preached to people who were slaves to sin, during the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared.
Q: Who did Christ by the Holy Spirit use? Giving a warning of a coming prophetic flood?
The Bible tells us that “holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:21) and that “Noah, one of eight people, (was) a preacher of righteousness”. (2 Peter 2:5) Thus 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us this, that Jesus in His great mercy by the Holy Spirit spoke through Noah, in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared. Striving to redeem those humans in prison to sin, while the ark was being prepared.
Q: Does the rest of the Bible confirm or contradict our interpretation?
It confirms it for it is written speaking during the days of Noah And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3)
It’s clear that the patience of Jesus is great. By the Holy Spirit He spent 120 years trying to reach the people before the flood came. The world was warned, but when the message was rejected the flood did come. Jesus has told us “As the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
One of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible is found in 1 Peter 3:18-20 which says “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.”
What does this verse mean? Did Jesus preach to spirits in hades or hell? Or did He preach to fallen angels? Or does this verse mean something completely different? How can we understand this passage of Scripture? When we look at 1 Peter 3:18-20 we must ask a few questions.
How did Jesus preach to these spirits in prison?
- Who are these spirits in prison?
- And when did He do this?
Q: How did Jesus preach to these spirits in prison?
Some think that this verse means that when Christ died on the cross that he went to hades and preached to the spirits in prison. However the word hades or hell is not in the text. Let’s take the verse slowly and see what it means…
One of the keys is verse 18-19 which says ” being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, [SUP]19 [/SUP]by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,” the question is who is the individual mentioned in the words “by whom” found in verse 19?
If you read the verse it says “by the Spirit, [SUP]19 [/SUP]by whom” Thus the “by whom” is the Holy Spirit. So with that in mind the verse says the following that Christ by the Holy Spirit “went and preached to the spirits in prison”. OK that makes it a little clearer. But that begs the question…
Q: When did Christ preach to these individuals by the Holy Spirit?
The verse says that Christ by the Holy Spirit “went and preached to the spirits in prison, [SUP]20 [/SUP]who formerly were disobedient,” when? The verse states ” when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.” So Christ by the Holy Spirit preached to the spirits in prison in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared. Thus this happened before Jesus came as a man.
Q: But who are these spirits in prison during the days of Noah?
Well the Bible tells us Satan has “made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities,” and “did not open the house of his prisoners“. (Isaiah 14:17) So Satan is the one keeping these prisoners. Prisoners have no freedom. Who is it whom Satan is trying to take captive? Humans of course. Thus, the prisoners are actually humans who are bound to sin. Jesus said “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin” (John 8:34). Slaves are not free, and whoever commits sin is a slave or prisoner to sin, they have no freedom. There is only one who can set us free, “if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.” (John 8:36). Jesus is the only one who can set us free from the prison of sin. This is His mission. One day Jesus stood up to read and He declared of Himself…
“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”” (Luke 4:18-19)
Praise be to Jesus who can set us free from the prison of sin!
Therefore, Jesus by the Holy Spirit preached to people who were slaves to sin, during the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared.
Q: Who did Christ by the Holy Spirit use? Giving a warning of a coming prophetic flood?
The Bible tells us that “holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:21) and that “Noah, one of eight people, (was) a preacher of righteousness”. (2 Peter 2:5) Thus 1 Peter 3:18-20 tells us this, that Jesus in His great mercy by the Holy Spirit spoke through Noah, in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared. Striving to redeem those humans in prison to sin, while the ark was being prepared.
Q: Does the rest of the Bible confirm or contradict our interpretation?
It confirms it for it is written speaking during the days of Noah And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3)
It’s clear that the patience of Jesus is great. By the Holy Spirit He spent 120 years trying to reach the people before the flood came. The world was warned, but when the message was rejected the flood did come. Jesus has told us “As the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
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S
May I ask, who were they who came up out of their graves at Jesus' resurrection? If they were in graves, were they not dead?
S
Does the Bible ever refer human being as spirits?
At least in the New Testament, as far as I know, the using are for: angels, demons, spirit of Jesus, and Holy Spirit.
I know Hebrew 4 states that we have spirits, though.
At least in the New Testament, as far as I know, the using are for: angels, demons, spirit of Jesus, and Holy Spirit.
I know Hebrew 4 states that we have spirits, though.
C
You're basing your opinion of the verb version of spirit being masculine? I'm sorry, but I think that's very odd. I've no idea why that should matter at all. God is always referred to in masculine form, and He's spirit. Jesus is obviously masculine. So you're hanging this concept on the idea that spirit in this sense should not imply masculinity?
Whatever.
Whatever.
S
Note how in Matthew 10:20, having the same sentence setup, the verb "speaks" is spoken in the neuter to indicate that the Spirit, which is also in the neuter, is being spoken about. Also note that if it were in the masculine, then it could be said that God is doing the talking.