Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circles?

MaggieMye · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

zone said:

[/QUOTE] And THIS really does support my point in post #10. They are not Spirit empowered, but base their doctrine on words that were not spoken to Christians in general, but to a specific church body that was having issues. They do not rightly divide the word and so cannot understand it true and original meaning.
BTW...the Catholics in the US outnumber the Lutherans....just saying~!

MidniteWelder · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

What gets a man of God to ignore Gods word
and forget most all reasoning
and just go ummm
OK

GreenNnice · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25except to hold on to what you have until I come.’
26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[SUP]b[/SUP] —just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give that one the morning star. 29Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Jezebel is not being said here to be a woman so she can't be a prophet, LOL, or, a teach, LOL. And, I never even remotely thought of this in stephenspeaks 'Jezebel Spirit' thread because it's so far gone not an issue with me it's not even funny, LOL. Look at the words, simple context and interpretation dissection: she CALLS herself a prophet. By HER TEACHING, she misleads.
C'mon, where in Carmen Sandiego do you come up with this

HER IMMORALITY is WHAT she's done, it's not that she's a 'woman,' get real

The Lord leads. Let Him teach you this interpretive truth, He will.

Also, huh, I just noticed this, it has the word 'faith' and then 'doing.' DO + FAITH = doing faith.

And, LOL, whoever says Pentecostals or Charismatics BELIEVE in spiritual gifts and healings, etc. yada yada, blah, blah, blah. I NEVER have said that. I simply HAVE faith in the Lord's work in my life, oh MY ! It's way more than mere belief, not that I've witnessed any
GREAT miracles in my time on 'Earth,' but, it's clear they are out there, or, else we got just a bunch of crazy people out there that are dingy as two guys hitting a ping-pong ball back and forth.

Jezebel was a woman who PRACTICED deception, it's NOT a knock on woman in general, and, certainly NOT using them as an example to not be able to EVER teach or preach in a church. YOU people TAKE 1 Tim. 2:12 so literally, extremely out of context and, plus, that aside, those that teach now you just continue to denigrate and self-impose will of God's chosen ones, or, ones that God's used because of their going into the ministry.
Women !

Get over it

What, haven't you EVER been taught by a woman in your life, guys ?? Get over it

And, you got over 'it,' didn't you, and, hey, WHO KNOWS, maybe YOU don't even know it but what a WOMAN said was transformational in your life

AngelCakes · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters said:

did you just call me ma'am? lol

wasn't deborah a judge? wouldn't she have had authority over some of the men of israel?

jesus exalted women to a higher position then they had at that time. he was kind and treated them like human beings. he freed them from the oppression that they lived with. he never put them under any sort of bondage with his words or actions.

do you think that when paul talks about women being submissive, silent, and not teaching men that he meant it to mean that women were literally not ever allowed to teach men, ever?

wasn't priscilla partly responsible for teaching apollos in Acts. 18? wasn't Apollos a man?

and if women are not to teach men then does that mean we are only allowed to 'witness' or 'share our faith' or 'teach others about the gospel' if they are women?

1still_waters · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

GreenNnice said:

Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. 24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, 25except to hold on to what you have until I come.’
26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’[SUP]b[/SUP] —just as I have received authority from my Father. 28I will also give that one the morning star. 29Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

Jezebel is not being said here to be a woman so she can't be a prophet, LOL, or, a teach, LOL. And, I never even remotely thought of this in stephenspeaks 'Jezebel Spirit' thread because it's so far gone not an issue with me it's not even funny, LOL. Look at the words, simple context and interpretation dissection: she CALLS herself a prophet. By HER TEACHING, she misleads.
C'mon, where in Carmen Sandiego do you come up with this

HER IMMORALITY is WHAT she's done, it's not that she's a 'woman,' get real

The Lord leads. Let Him teach you this interpretive truth, He will.

Also, huh, I just noticed this, it has the word 'faith' and then 'doing.' DO + FAITH = doing faith.

And, LOL, whoever says Pentecostals or Charismatics BELIEVE in spiritual gifts and healings, etc. yada yada, blah, blah, blah. I NEVER have said that. I simply HAVE faith in the Lord's work in my life, oh MY ! It's way more than mere belief, not that I've witnessed any
GREAT miracles in my time on 'Earth,' but, it's clear they are out there, or, else we got just a bunch of crazy people out there that are dingy as two guys hitting a ping-pong ball back and forth.

Jezebel was a woman who PRACTICED deception, it's NOT a knock on woman in general, and, certainly NOT using them as an example to not be able to EVER teach or preach in a church. YOU people TAKE 1 Tim. 2:12 so literally, extremely out of context and, plus, that aside, those that teach now you just continue to denigrate and self-impose will of God's chosen ones, or, ones that God's used because of their going into the ministry.
Women !

Get over it

What, haven't you EVER been taught by a woman in your life, guys ?? Get over it

And, you got over 'it,' didn't you, and, hey, WHO KNOWS, maybe YOU don't even know it but what a WOMAN said was transformational in your life

In previous posts you ignored Rev 2 and relied on the OT Jez references.

You can't separate the woman taking authority over a man if you're going to go about talking about "Jezebel spirit". She was indeed a woman who took authority over a man. That's part of the JS package. It's not an add on like power windows and air conditioning.

1still_waters · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

AngelCakes said:

If you notice how judges were chosen, God chose them, and you'll notice Deb actually wasn't chosen.

You may exercise your will in such a way that you can live in rebellion to what God commanded in the NT church. I really can't stop you from doing that. Regardless the Bible says what it says. You can choose to obey it or rebel against. Either way it's your choice.

GreenNnice · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters said:

No, stilled, go re-read what I said, I referenced both elisha being chased by Jezebel and her oppression over him leading to depression and dread, and, also, I referenced 2:20 Jezebel , and, much of what I say above in red , except, the woman able to teach or preach, as, like I said, the correlation of women not to pastor or teach, or, prophesy in Revelation 2:20, is ridiculous reading into the verses.

-----
To angelpie: And, in Romans 16, it's a good read of all the people Paul commends, including the very first one who is a woman, a 'deacon,' no less, which is a LEADERSHIP position in the church, at least, it is in my church. The deacons are the ones that make our church roll, albeit it's a 10,000 congregation church but they are the ones that help out in supporting roles to the pastor and assistants and the 'deacons,' too, are often on the church 'board' too.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon[SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]b[/SUP] of the church in Cenchreae. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

AngelCakes · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters said:

ok....so deborah wasn't chosen by God, and that means what, exactly? i didn't say that i personally teach men in the church or anywhere else. i have had many dominance issues in past relationships, what can i say i'm not perfect either. but i don't pretend to be. God knows my faults. someone once said, those who are without sin can cast the first stone.

you didn't answer my question about priscilla and about whether or not women are permitted to 'witness' to unbelieving men. if you don't mind

1still_waters · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Yes but that doesn't negate roles for men and women in the church.
He did command this.

I do know what he was clear about. within the church and home.
We can't take what isn't clear and somehow use it to invalidate what is clear.

Again we're talking about roles within the church
Some observe that the woman at the well shared her faith, then leap to saying, that means women can lead over men in church.

NiceneCreed · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters said:

While I respect your opinion, I have to disagree with you. It is clear you are a complementarinist, at least from what I gather from your post; however, while you did cite 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-38, you neglected to cite Romans 16:1-7. While there is much debate as to whether or not Junias was male or female, there is no doubt that Phoebe was a deaconess. Furthermore, when taking Genesis 3:16 into consideration, God was not giving a mandate that men should rule over women, rather, He was clearly stating what would occur as a result of "The Fall."

It seems to me you should have entitled your post, "Complementarianism: Women Must Be Obedient To Men." Forgive me for being so blunt about it, but the church has far bigger problems than women in authority positions. Do me a favor and look at Luke 19:40 . . . If you don't quite understand why I referred you to that particular verse, let me know and I will explain.

GreenNnice · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters said:

Deborah may or not have been chosen, I don't see the exact word, but she became a judge and God allowed it to happen or she did it by her own doing, but, God THEN made it right, IF you want to take that stance, stilled.

I prefer the stance of she was chosen by God to lead Israel, that is what Scripture says she was doing, it looks to be like, most certainly, Deborah was appointed by God to lead Israel for a time , and, she did so with prophetic aplomb

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 99%"]Judges: 4 [/TD]
[TD="width: 1%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
1Again the Israelites did evil in the eyes of the Lord, now that Ehud was dead. 2So the Lord sold them into the hands of Jabin king of Canaan, who reigned in Hazor. Sisera, the commander of his army, was based in Harosheth Haggoyim. 3Because he had nine hundred chariots fitted with iron and had cruelly oppressed the Israelites for twenty years, they cried to the Lord for help.

4Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading[SUP]a[/SUP] Israel at that time. 5She held court under the Palm of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in the hill country of Ephraim, and the Israelites went up to her to have their disputes decided. 6She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, commands you: ‘Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead them up to Mount Tabor. 7I will lead Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.’ ”

8Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.”
9“Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh. 10There Barak summoned Zebulun and Naphtali, and ten thousand men went up under his command. Deborah also went up with him.

11Now Heber the Kenite had left the other Kenites, the descendants of Hobab, Moses’ brother-in-law,[SUP]b[/SUP] and pitched his tent by the great tree in Zaanannim near Kedesh.

12When they told Sisera that Barak son of Abinoam had gone up to Mount Tabor, 13Sisera summoned from Harosheth Haggoyim to the Kishon River all his men and his nine hundred chariots fitted with iron.
14Then Deborah said to Barak, “Go! This is the day the Lord has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the Lord gone ahead of you?” So Barak went down Mount Tabor, with ten thousand men following him. 15At Barak’s advance, the Lord routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera got down from his chariot and fled on foot.

16Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim, and all Sisera’s troops fell by the sword; not a man was left. 17Sisera, meanwhile, fled on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, because there was an alliance between Jabin king of Hazor and the family of Heber the Kenite.

18Jael went out to meet Sisera and said to him, “Come, my lord, come right in. Don’t be afraid.” So he entered her tent, and she covered him with a blanket.
19“I’m thirsty,” he said. “Please give me some water.” She opened a skin of milk, gave him a drink, and covered him up.
20“Stand in the doorway of the tent,” he told her. “If someone comes by and asks you, ‘Is anyone in there?’ say ‘No.’ ”
21But Jael, Heber’s wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.
22Just then Barak came by in pursuit of Sisera, and Jael went out to meet him. “Come,” she said, “I will show you the man you’re looking for.” So he went in with her, and there lay Sisera with the tent peg through his temple—dead.
23On that day God subdued Jabin king of Canaan before the Israelites. 24And the hand of the Israelites pressed harder and harder against Jabin king of Canaan until they destroyed him.[

danschance · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

AngelCakes said:

Deborah was no doubt an amazing woman, chosen by God to lead Israel. She was so respected that Barak told her he would only go to battle if she went with him. Even so, I think she is the exception to the rule and not the rule itself. I personally know a woman who God uses in amazing ways. Even so, God generally speaking puts men in authority, not women.

If you don't mind me asking, what is a dominance issue in your relationships? My guess is you don't have a dominance issue. It is a fear issue. Perhaps you are dominating because your afraid you are afraid the men will leave you or they may find out what you are really like, and the scares you. So you build up a wall to protect yourself from rejection. Is that accurate?

GreenNnice · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

danschance said:

But, not always, there are a few women out there ,teaching men in churches, probably more than should be doing it, and, some get in trouble, why, it's in their nature, just ask Eve . But......

.....some do get called to lead at their church and they are teachers, even pastors, over men

The Lord leads, danluck

1still_waters · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

NiceneCreed said:

While I respect your opinion, I have to disagree with you. It is clear you are a complementarinist, at least from what I gather from your post; however, while you did cite 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34-38, you neglected to cite Romans 16:1-7. While there is much debate as to whether or not Junias was male or female, there is no doubt that Phoebe was a deaconess. Furthermore, when taking Genesis 3:16 into consideration, God was not giving a mandate that men should rule over women, rather, He was clearly stating what would occur as a result of "The Fall."

It seems to me you should have entitled your post, "Complementarianism: Women Must Be Obedient To Men." Forgive me for being so blunt about it, but the church has far bigger problems than women in authority positions. Do me a favor and look at Luke 19:40 . . . If you don't quite understand why I referred you to that particular verse, let me know and I will explain.

You can't wipe out the CLEAR command of God by quoting an obscure verse at the end of Romans.

Me thinks folks are missing the point of this thread.

AngelCakes · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters said:

a woman teaching in the church does not mean that she is exercising authority over anyone. she is just teaching. how is that different then teaching someone you meet on the street? and, if women are not ever allowed to teach men (like 1 tim 2) says, then how do we teach them about Jesus? to me it seems to be either both or neither. regardless, i get that Paul is talking about within the church, but why did you add 'and home'? seems like a popular thing where these guidelines get dragged over into that area of life. this has nothing to do with the marriage relationship.

i am not trying to do that, i just fail to see a huge difference between teaching men by sharing the gospel with them, or teaching them by expounding on the scriptures.

i feel like we've gotten so far off topic. sorry about that

how does this relate to the 'jezebel spirit' again?

1still_waters · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Since this thread isn't about women in ministry, and that was a point to prove a greater point, I'm not going to untangle all the tangled balls of yarn thrown my way about this issue.

Folks who try to sweep 1 Cor 14 and 1 Tim 2 under the rug with other verses, more than likely won't be convinced. and there are tons of other threads on that topic so u can hash it out there.

AngelCakes · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

danschance said:

i suppose, partly.
i don't think it is really a fear issue tho...never really thought about it that way.
no necessarily afraid that they will leave. haven't met anyone, yet, that i honestly cared enough about to be afraid of that.
you are probably closer with your second assumption. nobody's perfect and everyone has a past.
i try and stay away from men now...it's easier that way

GreenNnice · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

NiceneCreed said:

Deacon

But, yes, it's good what you said, kind of, nicenecreedagreed

------------------------Stilledwaters' position is sound, it's not that it's not airtight, it's just not got the right God might and understanding and reality of vision that we do, indeed, all have 'the mind of Christ,' (1 cor. 2) that have chosen Him, through ALL our bad ways and mistakes, even deceptions, like Jacob, didn't he even deceive his big brother and God still ALLOWED him the blessing from dad, Isaac? The difference was one followed God and one didn't. But, yeah, that aside there of Jacob and Esau 'birthright' example for teaching of God's justness, we JUST do NOT understand God's mind, per Isaiah 55:8, nor can we EVER hope to and to be unsupportive to women ALREADY in a church, whether they are disobeying God's Word or not is NOT the way to be, it's to LET the Lord handle it and be supportive and see IF you can still learn from them. Don't worry, IF that woman--let's just say 'Jezebel' is her name-- in the Sunday School class she teaches that you've walked into is not to be doing that and is directly doing things against God's will in THAT church you will KNOW it without a shadow of a doubt

The Lord leads

His Spirit in us will ALWAYS help us and tell us what it is that is not right, we just can't go on mere belief of what we THINK, but, through faith, in what He has for us and what He (God) thinks is best for us. Gotta just go with the plan, man

brmicke · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Hi -The following verse cannot be avoided, it will either be explained away through endless words or, it will simply be ignored. It must however be confronted if a person even attempts to obey scripture.

Ge 3:16 ¶ To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

A Women's predominant problem is "who is in charge", it is worldwide and a part of every women, whether they admit or not. Not truly wanting to love their wives is the husbands predominant problem worldwide, whether they want to admit it or not. The Apostle Paul went straight for the root problems when He spoke in Eph 5:25 and 1 Tim 2:12.

As you will notice the problems are not "equal" or the same. Men have theirs and women have theirs. God has decided our respective roles in this man/husband -wife/women authority controversy, as you can see from Genesis 3:16. We each have our respective problems and it is quite important that people see that wives are commanded to respect their husbands, Eph 5:33. It is equally important to see that the scriptural command for husbands is that they love their wives as their own selves. The example for husbands is that they "give their lives for their wives" Eph 5:33.

So tell me which requires more self effacing obedience -

1. that of the Wife who is commanded to respect the husband
- or -
2. that of the Husband who is commanded to love His wife, and by example is encouraged to give His life for Her?

Is it any wonder that the wife is the crown of the husband (Pr 12:4) and Jesus was crucified wearing a crown of thorns.

Respectfully -Brian

GreenNnice · Jul 23, 2013

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

brmicke said:

Angelpie said it well, does a woman teaching a man mean she is in charge of them or just teaching them, and, we are talking about a context of biblical learning, right? ?

brimick?
\
Does that mean a woman has a Jezebel spirit IF she is teaching a man something, and, of course, no one is arguing that a woman is supposed to obey her husband, who he himself is to have the FEAR of God in Him , literally speaking that latter part

in his taking care of his wife, and, yes, being submitted to. But 'submission' and 'ruled over' are two different words, and, as nicenecreedagreed said well, what Gen. 3:16 states is a way it is GOING TO BE because of 'The Fall' of man, NOT how God wants it. It is CLEAR in Scripture, as was just pointed out and as Ephesians 4 points out, a woman is simply to 'submit to her husband.' This is HER choice but she IS to do it, per God's bible, and, all the writers' word in it being holy and in spirit provided by Him

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