Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circles?

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Stilly,

What is the point you were or are trying to make with women leaders in the church and Jezebel?

The churches that do all this talkin about a "Jezebel spirit", based on an OT woman who took authority over a man, all those who chirp about it , are in churches/movements that promote women taking authority over men.

Or as my original post said..

They have "Jezebel spirits" because their doctrine promotes them.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...atic-pentecostal-wof-circles.html#post1121558

 

[Angela53510]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

So for Angela's to work.it goes from ONE church to a set of regional churches...then whole words just start disappearing from the Greek..Hopefully not entire sentences...

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

I use the United Bible Societies version, which references all of the ancient manuscripts, and lists all the variations. Seriously, google it yourself, but NOT the Blue letter version. I think it is some kind of back translation from KJV to Greek.

As for head, another word in Greek that has different meanings.

"Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ," Eph. 5:22

"Αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν, οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν· ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει." 1 Cor. 14:34

No sign of hypotassio in the first, and no sign of ALL or REGIONS in the second.


ALL and REGIONS is not there in any of the versions I looked at, that are known for literal equivalence.

Your Greek and Hebrew tools aren't working too well today, are they 1still_waters?

Besides, who ever said I don't let my husband be the head in our home? He has areas of strength that I rely upon him for (fixing cars, mowing our acreage, fixing pretty much anything that breaks). I have areas of strength (organization, cooking, gardening, etc) which he allows me to function fully in. Well, I guess he wouldn't want to cook a meal to save his life, so on his day to cook, I get taken out to dinner. Works for me!!

Please do not try and interpret the Greek until you have taken courses in it.

And you still have not answered my question as to which Bible you are quoting that has all these extra words in it????

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

I use the United Bible Societies version, which references all of the ancient manuscripts, and lists all the variations. Seriously, google it yourself, but NOT the Blue letter version. I think it is some kind of back translation from KJV to Greek.

As for head, another word in Greek that has different meanings.

"Αἱ γυναῖκες τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ὡς τῷ κυρίῳ," Eph. 5:22

"Αἱ γυναῖκες ἐν ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις σιγάτωσαν, οὐ γὰρ ἐπιτρέπεται αὐταῖς λαλεῖν· ἀλλὰ ὑποτασσέσθωσαν, καθὼς καὶ ὁ νόμος λέγει." 1 Cor. 14:34

No sign of hypotassio in the first, and no sign of ALL or REGIONS in the second.


ALL and REGIONS is not there in any of the versions I looked at, that are known for literal equivalence.

Your Greek and Hebrew tools aren't working too well today, are they 1still_waters?

Besides, who ever said I don't let my husband be the head in our home? He has areas of strength that I rely upon him for (fixing cars, mowing our acreage, fixing pretty much anything that breaks). I have areas of strength (organization, cooking, gardening, etc) which he allows me to function fully in. Well, I guess he wouldn't want to cook a meal to save his life, so on his day to cook, I get taken out to dinner. Works for me!!

Please do not try and interpret the Greek until you have taken courses in it.

And you still have not answered my question as to which Bible you are quoting that has all these extra words in it????

Oh brother.
So EVERY BIble translation has it wrong?

The level of ridiculousness is epic here.

So are you now saying isn't in the Greek either.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Besides, who ever said I don't let my husband be the head in our home?

That was never the point.
The discussion was on what the Bible says about male headship.

Apparently all the Bible translations have it wrong except for your website.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Please do not try and interpret the Greek until you have taken courses in it.

Are you saying your understanding of Greek is better than the 100s of translators who DO put submit in those verses and who DO say the husband is the head of the wife?

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

I use the United Bible Societies version, which references all of the ancient manuscripts, and lists all the variations. Seriously, google it yourself, but NOT the Blue letter version. I think it is some kind of back translation from KJV to Greek.

So you know which variations to choose, and the 100s of Greek experts who put submit and the husband is the head of the wife have no clue which variations to put in?

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Angela you've managed to elevate your knowledge of the Greek, variations, and manuscripts as superior to hundreds of highly educated scholars who do translate it different than you do.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Of course the hundreds of translators are pure genius when they translate it out for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. lol

And when they say we are all one in Christ...then again...their complete ignorance of Greek turns into PURE genius.

Just wow.

 

[Stephen63]

Re: Why is the "Jezebel spirit" concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

But nothing in scripture indicates these guidelines for leadership depend on culture or time or place.

The reasoning in 1 Tim 2 is the order of creation.
Not time or place.




And it's not just for that particular church..
as in all churches of the saints.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Let your women keep silence in the churches<--plural: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Let.... Me.... Tell..... You...... this...... very......sloooooooowly, so you can get it.

1. 1 Corinthians chapter 14 teaches NOTHING about leadership....... it's totally about how the gifts should be used in their proper operation.

2. 1 Timothy 2 teaches NOTHING about leadership...... it teaches only about praying and giving thanks, & how women should live in modesty in how they act and dress.

Let me help you with that v34 problem: 1 Corinthians 14:34 (KJV)
( Corinthians),Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1. More than 1 church in Corinth....... house churches
2. V33 belongs in the context of verses 26 to 33, speaking about how everything should be done for edification

Unfortunately, some people claim other people read stuff into Scripture that doesn't belong, and makes a really big issue about it, then those same people pick and choose verses and read their own stuff into it.

Romans 2:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

 

[Angela53510]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters, I got my Greek translations off of Biblegateway.com,because I am not at home, but I have studied this issue in depth in the UBS copy, and done quite a few papers on it for Seminary. And although I went to a conservative Baptist Seminary, my profs agreed with the translations and the exegesis.

And I am not picking and choosing, the scholars are the ones who choose which is most likely in the original autographs.

But if you had taken a course in Greek, you would know that, wouldn't you? I could do a side by side comparison of the various English translations, since the Greek means nothing to you, but I am bored to tears with a person who is so unteachable.

I just would like to know where you get this twisted translation from??

 

[Angela53510]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Angela you've managed to elevate your knowledge of the Greek, variations, and manuscripts as superior to hundreds of highly educated scholars who do translate it different than you do.

Besides, I am not talking about translations, but showing you the Greek! And I am no super expert, but I know how to read simple and basic words and whether they are there in the text or not.

Excellent analysis of those passages, by the way, Stephen!

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters, I got my Greek translations off of Biblegateway.com,because I am not at home, but I have studied this issue in depth in the UBS copy, and done quite a few papers on it for Seminary. And although I went to a conservative Baptist Seminary, my profs agreed with the translations and the exegesis.

And I am not picking and choosing, the scholars are the ones who choose which is most likely in the original autographs.

But if you had taken a course in Greek, you would know that, wouldn't you? I could do a side by side comparison of the various English translations, since the Greek means nothing to you, but I am bored to tears with a person who is so unteachable.

I just would like to know where you get this twisted translation from??

Lol.

Pure ridiculousness.

So the KJV, NKJV, ESV, NASB, etc, are all rubbish translations and have it all totally wrong when translating?
You're saying you know more than the hundreds of translators?

That's the implication.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

2. 1 Timothy 2 teaches NOTHING about leadership...... it teaches only about praying and giving thanks, & how women should live in modesty in how they act and dress.

Does too.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

So basically Stephen ignores the verses, and Angela declares her knowledge of Greek, and manuscripts as superior to the hundreds of folks who translate Bible.

That's what you be standing on.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

I have studied this issue in depth in the UBS copy, and done quite a few papers on it for Seminary. And although I went to a conservative Baptist Seminary, my profs agreed with the translations and the exegesis.

And there are hundreds of Greek scholars who studied it too and arrived at obviously different conclusions than you did. Hundreds of these have had their actual knowledge put into Bible translations.

Congrats on the paper, and congrats on the seminary profs agreeing, but that weighed against hundreds of other scholars who actually have their work translated......well do that math!

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

And I am not picking and choosing, the scholars are the ones who choose which is most likely in the original autographs.

But the actual scholars who translate actual Bible translations have it wrong? Right?

 

[danschance]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

The churches that do all this talkin about a "Jezebel spirit", based on an OT woman who took authority over a man, all those who chirp about it , are in churches/movements that promote women taking authority over men.

Or as my original post said..

They have "Jezebel spirits" because their doctrine promotes them.
Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...atic-pentecostal-wof-circles.html#post1121558

Except that most churches do not promulgate this. Even charismatic churches. I think this comes from deliverance ministries and deliverance books.

 

[Stephen63]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Angela you've managed to elevate your knowledge of the Greek, variations, and manuscripts as superior to hundreds of highly educated scholars who do translate it different than you do.

1still_waters, you've managed to take Scriptures from two different books that spoke entirely about a woman's relationship with her husband and stretched it a country mile so the female Christians cannot do what Christ died for them to do........ preach the gospel. So now according to you, all the men are to go out and preach the gospel, teaching them to observe all things Christ has commanded them, and the women are shut up and stay home even though he commanded them too.

I see this as insulting to Christian women, as well in this case a lack of respect for your elders.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters, you've managed to take Scriptures from two different books that spoke entirely about a woman's relationship with her husband and stretched it a country mile so the female Christians cannot do what Christ died for them to do........ preach the gospel. So now according to you, all the men are to go out and preach the gospel, teaching them to observe all things Christ has commanded them, and the women are shut up and stay home even though he commanded them too.

I see this as insulting to Christian women, as well in this case a lack of respect for your elders.

No it's not about relationship to a husband.
It's about the church.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.[SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

So that means the wife has to be silent at home around her husband?

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Except that most churches do not promulgate this. Even charismatic churches. I think this comes from deliverance ministries and deliverance books.

Actually they do.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

Except that most churches do not promulgate this. Even charismatic churches. I think this comes from deliverance ministries and deliverance books.

Look at the two in this thread doing it.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: Why is the &quot;Jezebel spirit&quot; concept mostly in Charismatic, Pentecostal, WOF circl

1still_waters, you've managed to take Scriptures from two different books that spoke entirely about a woman's relationship with her husband and stretched it a country mile so the female Christians cannot do what Christ died for them to do........ preach the gospel. So now according to you, all the men are to go out and preach the gospel, teaching them to observe all things Christ has commanded them, and the women are shut up and stay home even though he commanded them too.

I see this as insulting to Christian women, as well in this case a lack of respect for your elders.

Quite a rhetorical flourish.

Still it simply and clearly says..

[SUP]12 [/SUP]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.