for those who do not sin

[RickShafer]

yup... that's exactly what they're saying.

Please don't parse the argument.
Please don't take a rhetorical question out of context, as it just muddies the water.
- Thank you.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Please don't parse the argument.
Please don't take a rhetorical question out of context, as it just muddies the water.
- Thank you.

Parsing or not parsing, you will get to the same conclusion. The same points you made have already been covered with Cobus, and the conclusion has been drawn.

 

[RickShafer]

Parsing or not parsing, you will get to the same conclusion. The same points you made have already been covered with Cobus, and the conclusion has been drawn.

Believe it or not I'm not trying to win an argument.
I'm trying to reason with Cobus.
Parse away. Me and Cobus go way back, I want him to answer the whole thought.
- That's why I addressed his certain post.
- - But parse away, dissect and reconnect what you think he means.
- - - Doesn't matter a farthing to either Cobus or me.

 

[Cobus]

Rick Jesus said that if we are BORN OF GOD, or REBORN we will be like the wind, and NOT FLESH.... I remind myself how Jesus was with the Emaus men and the next moment he was GONE.... And how Jesus appeared IN A BODY, to the apostls although the windows and the door was closed. So how did he appear there, and then he aid they must give him food to eat for a ghost does not eat food....

We have to ask ourselves, WHAT CAN GOD DO with anything He wants to do it too? We cannot even turn one hair white or black, but God doe that all the time... So if we believe only what is possible for man how poor are we in faith? God says we taste the POWERS of heaven and to come....

My frind I remind myself how Paul was taken to third heaven, even he does not know if it was in body or spirit... I remind myself of Ezekiel was in his home when the LORD took him to see what goes on in the temple... Eze 8. So I am not so sure the flesh with the Spirit of God is the same as the flesh of the sinning man....

There are many wonderful things that God did with the bodies of the men of God. I will not venture to limit God to what we think is possible.... Matthew says ... For God ALL things are possible. And if God says we are a NEW creature and ALL the old has passed, I believe even the body is renewed. Looks the same, but are ALL new.... Does our body not replace every cell in the body all the time.... Yes it does, apparently abot 40 times in a lifetime, or even more... Not sure, nobody is sure, but God knows what He does, And I believe Him.

And I agree God says we should even discard the garment of sin.... I just take this verse very seriously.... If God says... Behold ALL things are made new, then ALL things are made new... Let Him decide what ALL things are, as long as I am also A NEW CREATURE....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And I agree God says we should even discard the garment of sin.... I just take this verse very seriously.... If God says... Behold ALL things are made new, then ALL things are made new... Let Him decide what ALL things are, as long as I am also A NEW CREATURE....

Cobus, the bible doesn't say that all things have been made new. The bible says we yet have an old man. The bible verse you are basing your belief on is a mistranslation. Please see > http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/69946-those-who-do-not-sin-9.html#post1131170

 

[zone]

BUT THERE ARE not THOSE WHO DO NOT, so why would you post it?

because there are those who say they are (without sin).

this thread is for them to post their testimonies.

 

[homwardbound]

appoligise to be typing here again, seeing I am still sinner and destined for HELL, EXCEPT!!!!! What if God saves me? Will I go to hell or heaven? What is the difference between one person God saves and one God does not save? Since we are all sinners, or are we? Is every person here on earth a sinner?

It looks like that, but then there is NO HOPE AT ALL….. Not for ONE PERSON…. And I am the proof that there is HOPE…. Hope for what? Hope that God will save me…. Here is a fact…. God calls ONLY THE RIGHTEOUSS HIS CHILDREN…. And God says the righteous is as sinless (without sin) as HE IS WITHOUT SIN…. 1 John 3:7… God says… Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I do not want to keep it long so here goes this mornings revelation….
What is the difference of a saved man and an unsaved man. It starts with God’s PREDESTINATION…. Every saved man is destined to be God’s Child even BEFORE THE EARTH WAS FORMED. So God destined His Children before they even sinned. And make no mistake MANY of God’s children will sin. One two or a thousand times. Since one sin is enough to make a person a sinner, God will have to save the person with one sin and the one with one million sins. But the result of the two is EXACTLY the same…

Paul was the chief of the saved sinners…. This means Paul propably was the worst sinner the world will EVER know, but GOD SAVED HIM. So it also makes Paul the chief of SAVED SINNERS. Paul would be the person that God showed the most GRACE to in the world. But without Paul’s knowledge God had Paul written in the BOOK OF LIFE, and as an APOSTLE for the Gentiles God had Paul destined.

Now here is the fact. If Zone is destined to be a child of God, God’s SALVATION will make Zone a child. If I am NOT destined to be a child of God, I WILL NOT BE SAVED! God’s salvation will NOT MAKE ME A NEW CREATURE. I will remain a OLD MAN, but Zone NOT! Zone will be REBORN to the IMAGE OF JESUS. I will not be born of God. I will be born of flesh, and REMAIN IN THE FLESH. I will die in my sin.

But not the predestined Zone…. God destined her to be CONFORMED to the likeness and the FULNESS of Christ Jesus. In perfect obedience and perfect holiness, like ALL who are saved. There is only ONE level of holiness…. God’s! There are no other. God said be holy for I am holy… You either are as holy as God or not! There is no other. Oh Satan wants to have you believe there is more, but there ARE NOT!

Now let’s finish… If Zone was destined to be God’s child this is what GOD does with her…. God predestined her to be….. As holy as He is, right here on earth…. As perfect as He is, that is why she would be BORN OF HIM, and not herself again… To be a NEW creature recreated in the LIKENESS of Christ Jesus…. The OLD Zone DIED IN CHRIST,,,, not like me IN SIN… She died in HOLINESS, because Christ is the holiness…. And the NEW Zone, is Christ in Zone, Not Zone in Zone, Christ in Zone….

Christ is the REBORN in EVERY SAVED PERSON,,,,

I am one with myself and sin, and I will die and then when the SECOND death comes I will be part of that as well… HELL HERE I COME…. But Zone… She died IN CHRIST… She was made ONE WITH CHRIST on the day of BORN OF GOD. Zone was made PERFECTLY ONE with God and in the likeness of Jesus she died HOLY and PERFECT, and she will NEVER be part of second death (hell). Zone will be with God, and I will see her come down from heaven with Christ to judge me and other angels. And I will bend my knee, and receive my fate.

For those that are IN CHRIST are already in GOD! Jesus asked the Father that in a prayer…. John 17. Every saved soul is made ONE WITH GOD… in true holiness. His holiness…. They all DID put on the NEW MAN…. Eph 4:24… the sinner CANNOT put on this man. A sinner is NOT created in righteousness, but in EVIL….

Eph 4:24….And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And those that do learn to not be proud, boastful and or arrogant, they are doers of the word by Faith in Christ Jesus's finished work for them via the cross, and have received this new life that you are talking about in the resurrected Christ, raised in the Spirit of God, born again, dead to the flesh self and alive to God in God's Spirit. The new life that Christ came to give us
[h=3]Colossians 1:22[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


[SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

[h=3]John 10:10[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

 

[zone]

As for:

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

I don't think there is a christian alive that will claim to be without sin

i would agree with you, somewhat.
but there are many who claim to be christians who claim to be without sin.

this is understandable in a brand new christian who may not yet understand there is work to be done in not continuing in sin - rather turning from sin to serve righteousness, especially if they are brought up being taught 'christian perfection' (in any of it's forms)...most insidiously - instant or total sancitification. an 'experience' makes them sinless from that day forward.

which is a reason for this thread - i wondered if anyone could testify to that experience and how long they have been perfect(ed).

the issue is, what happens to new christians when they eventually do sin?

are they shipwrecked because they have been taught they will never sin again (they are now without sin)?

......

Christian perfection (also known as perfect love; heart purity; the baptism of the Holy Spirit; the fullness of the blessing; Christian holiness; the second blessing; the second work of grace; and entire sanctification) is a doctrine of Methodism and its emerging Holiness movement, which holds that the heart of the regenerant (born-again) Christian may attain a state of holiness in which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and where there is a total love for God and others wrought by the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Christian perfection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See also

Arminianism
Christian Perfection
Methodism
Wesleyanism
Conservative Holiness Movement

Holiness movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Cobus]

Herosefromthedead let me put the alvation in Christ for you in the verses that explain that CHRIST IN YOU AND YOU IN CHRIST, is the salvation...

First... the old is GONE, PASSED as God put it... Passed for me is as dead as PASSED AWAY!!!! Forever DEAD! For you it might mean something else but there is NO MORE STONY HEART... and NO MORE YOUR SPIRIT...

Here read as God put it....
Eze 36...A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
God does not say to cause them to walk in His way and in sin... only HIS WAY....

Rom 8... There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
You CANNOT walk after the flesh and the Spirit... THE HOLY SPIRIT.....

2 Cor 5:17.... Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Then God puts the argument out of reach of misunderstanding how NEW this creature is.... this creature is ALL OF GOD...
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The NEW CREATURE is ALL of God and NOTHING OF THE OLD MAN.... It is a NEW CREATURE ALL OF GOD....

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Not righteous and sinner... only righteous, the righteousness of God! God's righteousness is PERFECT!

That is wy God says .... And note even little children should know this et alone a CC chatter....
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Oh Lord please forgive us we do not believe a person can be as righteous as you are.... Sorry Lord you should ask the CC chatters next time you compile a Bible....

Come on now I have posted it enough..... God COMMANDED you to be perfect... Is He out of line to command that, or would HE PROVIDE the means to be perfect..... He is the SUPPLIER of GODLY LOVE... and that is what makes you perfect... The Love of God fulfilled in you... The Spirit of God is that LOVE....

I know not one person that has this Spirit of God in him, but that does not mean there are none.... Maybe God hides them from us evil sinners. Maybe we will only know them once we are saved.... It looks like that is the FACT in the Bible... God says they are Hid in God with Christ.... Hid from whom?

Do you hear a voice that guides you when you want to sin,.... Not AFTER you sinned, BEFORE you have a choice to sin? Do you hear such a voice that LEADS YOU OUR OF SIN, BEFORE you commit it? Do you see your Teachers or are they still HIDDEN IN A CORNER?

At least I am getting to know MY LORD. And He said I will know Him and SEE HIM.... WOW!!!! Good luck getting to heaven without God's PERFECT salvation. There is NO way you can say to God.... LORD I DID NOT KNOW.... Do not let Him says to you... I have never known you, you that work iniquity. All sin is iniquity, God has a WAY OUT.... Ask Him to show you the WAY.... God bless and have a good day, Love you all, Cobus.

 

[homwardbound]

i see.
no conviction from the Spirit when you sin?
no prompt to confess and be cleansed?
okay.

thanks.

Confession to God the Father is not for forgiveness, rather for how to understand I got duped by the flesh nature, that took me backwards to the old life that is dead in Father's sight since the first day I believed, thanks be to Christ
[h=3]Colossians 1:22[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


[SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

The confession is I did not respond to God's love as what God has put in me by the heart transplant that God did for me and all that believe by the resurrection of Christ.
God the Father sees us as Holy and is training us to be Holy by Faith in his Son's resurrection that he did on the third day. He does this for us all that believe a free gift. But people are just out and about working at it for their salvation, being fooled by the flesh, and getting rewards by others for their good behavior, and not giving God all the credit. The power of the full cross has been delineated, and people are more focused on death only, not seeing that new life is now available in the resurrection, not the death. Death needed to do first what Col 1:22 says Christ's body did, yet death does not bring life.

[h=3]Romans 5:10[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski7, to clear things up, I don't proclaim one can sin perpetually with the same sin over and over again all their life up to death, with a sin/ repent, sin/ repent life style etc. and have the assurance of salvation. I also can't say to one who has an apparent problem with a particular sin, that they are not saved, because I'm not the ultimate judge, nor the reader of anyone's heart. Simple what I believe the bible teaches is that true repentance is a recognition of sin with the intent to turn from it. It doesn't mean we won't have a relapse into it, it doesn't mean we won't occasionally fall. And yes, I believe once you have trusted in faith of what Christ did as your propitiation place for your sins, it covers past, present and future. Remaining is willful sin will hinder your communion with God, not union with God, if you truly trusted in Christ's atonement. However, one who has trusted with their heart, and lives in willful sin, God will chastise them and bring them back into a rightful relationship again. If one does not come back then perhaps their repentance and faith was not genuine, but who am I to judge that?

If you want to continue looking for technicalities for keeping believers out of the kingdom, then that's your business and I want no part of it. Jesus said that those who want a relationship with Him can have it, and by no means will be cast them away.
John 6:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

BTW to Cfultz3, thanks for coming to my defense.

It just blows my mind that you can actually believe that.

If one is engaging in willful sin there is no intent to turn from it. This idea that one can sin now and repent later is deadly because it is presuming on the grace of God.

You use terms like "relapse" and "occasionally fall" and yet uphold "remaining justified" via "trust." Thus you religion is a sinning religion.

Clearly you would have to believe that a serial murder can relapse into the occasional murder but so long at they "intend to stop it some time later" then they remain in good standing with God.

Yet Paul warned so clearly in many places that those who "do such things" will not inherit the kingdom. Likewise Jesus Christ Himself stated emphatically that it is the "pure in heart" who will see God.

The problem today is many people just do not believe the Bible. Instead they cling to isolated proof texts which they put forth completely out of context.

Thus today we have a Christianity where one can still be engaged in the sins of the flesh, only have a "desire" to stop some time in the future and so long as they "trust" one is assured of entrance into the kingdom.

I suppose one can believe that. It is the popular view pretty much taught everywhere today. It is the view that MANY believe.

The heretics today are those who truly believe that the heart can be clean where one walks in holiness and does not sin. Those who preach that people must repent and forsake their sins and in so doing turn to God who will raise them up. Those people are the evil deceivers today who teach salvation by works and deny the finished work of Christ. Isn't that right?

 

[Skinski7]

Cobus, the bible doesn't say that all things have been made new. The bible says we yet have an old man. The bible verse you are basing your belief on is a mistranslation. Please see > http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/69946-those-who-do-not-sin-9.html#post1131170

The Bible says that the old man is crucified that the body of sin be destroyed.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Why is it destroyed? That we no longer SERVE sin.

Jesus said if we commit sin we are the servant of sin.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Jesus also spoke of being set free from this service.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Likewise so did Paul...

Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Yet people don't believe it. Many teach that one can occasionally serve sin via a relapse into its service. Thus Israel just can't help going back to Egypt every now and then.

Freedom from sin is clearly denied by so many today.

Is sin really more powerful than Jesus? Surely these people believe it is because they are in complete denial that sin can be defeated by abiding in Christ.

In practicality "death" must be their saviour because for some reason the "flesh body necessitates sin."

It's pure gnosticism repackaged with a Bible.

 

[Cobus]

Zone, Christian perfection in the Bible is God's goal with HIS SALVATION....

God knew He would make all His children perfect. He knew if He is finished with grace.... not second work of grace, the COMPLETION of grace... grace is not only forgiveness of sin, it is also the FULNESS of the GIFTS of God... ALL PERFECT gifts are from above.... Every perfect child of God recieved the grace of God in its FULLNESS.

God says.... For this is the love of God that we keep HIS COMMANDMENTS... And all the commands come together in ONE COMMAND.... MAtthew 5:48... Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.... If God commanded that, He will PERFECT HIS LOVE in us to KEEP HIS WORD....

It is ALL part of God's GRACE.... GRACE SAVES, And salvation is forgiveness, and A NEW LIFE.... a GODLY LIFE... A life GOD LIVES IN YOU HERE ON EARTH.... Fortunately is is a PERFECT life. And only God determines how long that life is... IT is EVERLASTING... the flesh does not live forever, but the PERSON, that PERFECT PERSON does....

This life is not life, I will gladly lay it down for HIS NAME SAKE.... the life God gives us is the LIFE... the HOLY PERFECT LIFE.... And He gives it to us the moment HE ENTERS INTO US AND WE ENTER INTO HIM.... MADE ONE WITH HIM... then this life is OVER!!!!! On our way there we act as we do now.... but when God gives us that PERFECT gift from above, we will live a GODLY LIFE.... That is salvation and the Holy Spirit BAPTISM...


The Holy Spirit LEADS us before He FILLS US... The Holy Spirit leads us to God, and when we enter.... HE ENTERS NTO US... AT the END of our REPENTANCE.... or Following with the cross... dying daily.... We cannot die every day, but we can die off the old man everyday, untill HE IS DEAD... then there is no more to die off.... If the old is passed God create a NEW CREATURE.... Christ in me.... is the NEW CREATURE... now HE does not lead, now HE MOVES HOW HE WANTS TOO!!! I am only a pssenger SOME OF THE TIME.. the life I now live in the flesh, I LIVE BY FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD< WHO GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME.... I now live HIS LIFE... I live YET NOT I.... I am so Jesus that it is Jesus who lives in me...


I cannot be more clear than this... you are so Jesus like at this stage, it is you that live, YET NOT YOU.... People, God TAKES THE SINNER AND MAKES HIM JESUS LIKE.... No sinner has EVER been Jesus-like.... God RECREATES a NEW CREATURE IN CHRIST... not in sin .... IN CHRIST...

 

[zone]

If one is engaging in willful sin there is no intent to turn from it.

oh really?
and how would you know?



Psalm 32:5
Finally, I confessed all my sins to you and stopped trying to hide my guilt. I said to myself, "I will confess my rebellion to the LORD." And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone.

Interlude

- NLT

Psalm 32:5
I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.

Selah

-ESV

pesha: transgression
breach of trust (1), rebellion (6), rebellious (1), rebellious act (2), rebellious acts (2), transgression (37), transgressions (45).


Matthew 6
Therefore, this is how you should pray:

‘Our Father in heaven,
may your name be kept holy.
10May your kingdom come.
May your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread,
12and forgive us our sins,
as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us.
13And never bring us into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’


opheiléma: that which is owed, a debt
Original Word: ὀφείλημα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: opheiléma
Phonetic Spelling: (of-i'-lay-mah)
Short Definition: a debt, offense, sin
Definition: a debt, offense, sin.


Our Father in heaven, forgive us our offense, our sin.

hey skinski, ever pray this prayer?
Jesus said we need to ask for forgiveness for offending God.

was He mistaken?

or are you more perfect that Peter or James? or any of those he spoke to.

 

[zone]

Zone, Christian perfection in the Bible is God's goal with HIS SALVATION....

God knew He would make all His children perfect. He knew if He is finished with grace.... not second work of grace, the COMPLETION of grace....

the COMPLETION of grace?
huh?



John 1:16
The Word Made His Dwelling among Us
15John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'" 16For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ

charis: grace, kindness
Original Word: χάρις, ιτος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: charis
Phonetic Spelling: (khar'-ece)
Short Definition: grace, favor, kindness

Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ, (b) favor, (c) gratitude, thanks, (d) a favor, kindness.

Cognate: 5485 xáris (another feminine noun from xar-, "favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").

5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

[5485 (xáris) is sometimes rendered "thanks" but the core-idea is "favor, grace" ("extension towards").]

 

[homwardbound]

What does the Bible teach?


This notion of sins being forgiven in advance whilst the heart is still actually depraved is nonsense. It is a most demonic and dangerous thing to believe.

.

you know you do use the scripture here righteously, until the above Quote.
Yes there are many taking advantage of and just not concerned and do harm their neighbor still, in light of being forgiven in advance.
And we all here today are 100% forgiven by God at the cross. A 100% fact.
So what is left is whether one takes this fro an occasion for the flesh or not and we are warned of this taking it for Granted as the Corinthians were warned by Paul in 1 Cor. letter to them.
And by Paul about taking on the outward appearance of being good in the flesh, and being rewarded by others as he told the Galatians.
Yes we are to search out the whole truth separating error from the truth of God. And this can be only done by God who comes to live in the one that believes and God does if one believes.
Col 1:22
[h=3]Colossians 1:22[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

And if


[h=3]Colossians 1:23[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)


[SUP]23 [/SUP]if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister

One will grow into the holy one with God through Christ's, God knowing that one's heart that he did do a transplant with them and sealed those that believe in him, growing them into full maturity as an apple would be perfect on the first day it is born on a tree. The problem is not yet Mature, as when it is first born, If we all would read the word and see this miraculous gift from God, what God did for us through Christ, by staying steadfast to know truth and not take advantage, as you claim many are, which I as well know many are.
So to all:
Hebrews 2:3
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

So it is clear, how we are to react to God in thankfulness and not to use this as an occasion to do whatever one wants to, just as the Corinthians did, eating up all the food and drinking all the wine, not considering their Neighbor, as in whether they have food to eat or not. Then getting drunk and taking advantage of others not caring whether they harm them or not

It is as you say, that without Love God's type, we are still in our folly, thinking we are doing good and taking advantage of sin, saying as they thought, why not sin, I am forgiven, so why not, no punishment.
And that is not the case of God dying for the sins of the whole, not God's purpose anyway
And in 2 Cor. 7 The Corinthians, saw what Paul was saying even though you are forgiven it is not meant for harm to one another, it is meant for Love God's type, found in 1 Cor. 13

I know what has been done in me and what I used to do, and so today by the grace of God he has perfected in me, what I never could in and of the self. Showed me the doorway to the mew life being through the death of Son Christ, being co-crucified with Christ daily as Paul did too. in order to possibly see the resurrected life.
[h=3]Philippians 3[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]All for Christ[/h]3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]


if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

There is no excuse to continue in sin, those that colunt the blood of the new Covenant an unholy thing.
Now to all those that do not desire to sin, and yet do, continue please to learn from God and God will show how to have the righteousness by Faith in God through Christ the Son

[h=3]1 John 2[/h]
[h=3][/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

 

[Bookends]

It just blows my mind that you can actually believe that.

If one is engaging in willful sin there is no intent to turn from it. This idea that one can sin now and repent later is deadly because it is presuming on the grace of God.

You use terms like "relapse" and "occasionally fall" and yet uphold "remaining justified" via "trust." Thus you religion is a sinning religion.

Clearly you would have to believe that a serial murder can relapse into the occasional murder but so long at they "intend to stop it some time later" then they remain in good standing with God.

Yet Paul warned so clearly in many places that those who "do such things" will not inherit the kingdom. Likewise Jesus Christ Himself stated emphatically that it is the "pure in heart" who will see God.

The problem today is many people just do not believe the Bible. Instead they cling to isolated proof texts which they put forth completely out of context.

Thus today we have a Christianity where one can still be engaged in the sins of the flesh, only have a "desire" to stop some time in the future and so long as they "trust" one is assured of entrance into the kingdom.

I suppose one can believe that. It is the popular view pretty much taught everywhere today. It is the view that MANY believe.

The heretics today are those who truly believe that the heart can be clean where one walks in holiness and does not sin. Those who preach that people must repent and forsake their sins and in so doing turn to God who will raise them up. Those people are the evil deceivers today who teach salvation by works and deny the finished work of Christ. Isn't that right?

Romans 7
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[homwardbound]

How does Christ dying for a sinner when they were still in their rebellion imply that God forgives sinners when they are still in rebellion?

Why would Paul implore people to...

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

...if one is forgiven BEFORE they forsake their rebellion to God?

We are to reconciled to God as God is reconciled to us via the cross. Reconciled is the same as forgiven, and there are many a scripture using reconciled, redemption, forgiven, redeemed of the Spirit of God not flesh. All over, if only we would receive the truth and see the message of reconciliation
Then might we see the new life found in the resurrected Christ, only God willing though. I for one do not promote sin at all, yet we are forgiven as:
[h=3]1 John 2[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

And yes we are to give up to sin and trust God to take it all away as Christ already did for God the Father

[h=3]John 1:29[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The Lamb of God[/h]
[SUP]29 [/SUP]The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

[h=3]1 John 2[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

The willful one that sins without regard to it, is the one that has heard the truth and rejected the truth and not saved. and it starts at Jesus Christ and him crucified.
Which is Christ's death is to be our death to the self life that we were born with from the womb of Mom, born under Law born under the curse of the Law, yet the Law itself is Holy, perfect, good and correct, in it in itself is nothing wrong. What is wrong is flesh, even if the Spirit is willing, no matter the flesh is weak and can't be perfect. Therefore by the cross we are to die to self with Christ first and then be raised again to new life in the resurrected Christ, born of the Spirit of God here and now, and walk in the light as he is in the light

This is what those that do believe are called to do, period
Thanks for reading to see for those that God permits this to be seen.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, a man will always sin on this earth... but as a believer the sin is not counted as unrighteousness. God commands us to live holy lives, perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works... yet he didn't take away our sinful flesh. He didn't even take away Paul's thorn in the flesh... his temptation that continually discouraged him.

This thorn in the flesh was for him to not get boastful or proud, a messenger of Satan was sent to buffet him. Paul was at the point of no sin and saw this, and flesh popped up and deceived him again as in making him think he was better than others, as is what flesh is still doing to this very day in deception to many, creating a self-righteousness in them even as Saul before Paul had in obeying the Law and killing Christians in the process
Paul learned to glory in any iniquity that was there to puff him up as proud or boastful. So that sinful flesh had no more power over him.
Actually pretty much the same as when King Jehoshaphat sent out the praise and worship band first, and the three armies confused over the glorying, killed each other.
Praying you see this, how to quit from our own self desires and trust God by his death, burial and resurrection to glory in, where the enemy is defeated and after Christ rose he took from the Devil the keys and destroyed the enemy death, by his resurrection, and even went on and preached to all those that were held in prison. The day had come to where what King David said came true
Psalm 100:4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving, And into His courts with praise. Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.

Hallelujah be his Holy name, where we are made whole in him, in the Spirit of God by the death, burial and resurrected Christ

You can rejoice for it is finished and you can rejoice so much that there is no focus at all on sin and then one does not sin being toooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! busy in the new life here and now, praising and thanking God for this miraculous gift.
in God's Holy Spirit given to us all that believe God in doing this

 

[homwardbound]

ok...i thought we had the option whenever
is it just due to non-resolution or conflict?

huh...learn something new every day.
mkay...exit thread.

Yeah Zone I have already stated I am without sin, thanks be to God and am in trust to God to keep me this way, no confidence in the flesh. What is it nothing to argue about., if that is what you are after to find fault or not only God knows as you as well, all in love to you. Why are you sorry you started this thread, there are many here a learning here about truth as I am hearing others from their perspectives as well.
Please open and learn error from truth, leave dogmatics behind, if that is what is in the way. Is it not good to share to each other without any condemnation to each other
Matthew 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?

Jesus did come to rake away sin yes or no? And it is possible to take this away in you and all that do believe him, yes?
Since all things are possible with God? Or is this not possible with God to take away one sins all and that one not sin ever again, because of and by their trust in God to do as God has said he does.
Just curious to you, to let go of sin issues in self and others for there is no condemnation for those
[h=3]Romans 8:1[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]Free from Indwelling Sin[/h]8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

All in God's love to you and for you to see the light that is given to you to receive and be and walk in the light just as he (Christ) is in the light
Thanks your friend in Christ