Belief in God: Is it logical?

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homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
15,471
216
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#61
Logic is necessarily for being able to understand the possible and the impossible. Unless it can be demonstrate that the rules of logic are invalid, gods must adhere to them. Currently all conceptualizations of gods at current fall under the following two categories: Logically Possible or Logically impossible.

Logically Impossible:

Something that is logically impossible is self-defaeating, fallacious or paradoxical. For example, Claiming that “A” is “not ‘a’” is a self-defeating statement and can be demonstrated as false. Practical Examples: it is logically impossible to 1) Draw a circular square, 2) Put joy in a box 3) Sink to the top of a lake 4) be perfectly good and commit acts of evil, etc.

While it is nearly impossible to text the existence of supernatural beings by conventional methods; In this sense, if a religion assigns traits, behaviours or characteristics to a god that are logically impossible we can know that such a being does not exist.


Logically Possible:

Something that is logically possible is potentially true. For example, if you were to see an odd stone formation it is not illogical to consider the possibility that someone designed it. For instance, Both Arches National Park in Utah and the Ale’s Stone Monument in Sweden appear designed; however, only one is man-made.

If something is logically possible we cannot claim with certainty that it is untrue. At this point, we can only weigh in on it being resolvable or unresolvable. If there is adequate evidence we can claim with a decent degree of certainty that it is (or is not) true. However, if there is not adequate evidence it is unresolvable and any comments on its accuracy are mere speculation. If it is unresolvable there is not justifiable reason to accept it as true or claim with certainty that it is false.

The Question:

How does God fit into all of this? Do you believe that God is logically possible? Do you think God is subject to these rules of logic? If yes, do you believe that there is adequate evidence to justify a belief in god, what evidence is this? If you think this is unresolvable, how do you rationalize your faith?
There are no Atheist's in a foxhole.
Something logically put all this amazing things together.
Gravity is a fact and man has learned to deny it with Parachutes.

Reality and fantasy, yet I have seen miracles with no logical sense.
Just explore the human body with all its amazing abilities in healing alone. And some say there is no God.
I personally have the evidence of God that is not seen, just as the air I breathe to be physically alive.
Just think if the Sun was any closer we all would burn up, any further out and all the planet freeze up.
And man tries to claim a big bang theory. Well what caused the big bang and then on and on.
God is a fact and real, told to Moses and Moses wrote what God told him, the First five books. I believe I need no evidence of proof personally.
Bottom line God is Love in Spirit not in carnality, even though once known in flesh, today no more.

God is subject to no one or anything, for God is the creator of all period, revealed through Son Christ and we are made free through the cross of Christ to love as God Loves.

I just know God is and that is to me resolved, and to each their own. All in self know God is real, no matter what way it is sliced, diced or cubed, all know God is reality
God is like coke "He is the real thing"
 
Jul 27, 2011
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#62
denying God in my life, would be like denying the sky is blue or the grass is green. A person can't deny what they see, and i see God working every day.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#64
Using our kind of logic was not the reason Elisha's servant stopped being afraid, that simply was not the way he thought at all. That is the way you think and why you would not be afraid. He wasn't afraid because he saw the angels and saw how he fitted in with the fact of the angels. The two of you arrive at the same conclusion, but the method of thinking in the OT is not the way you think. You cannot understand the OT until you explore how they thought.
??? and you have a deeper insight into the OT method of thinking???

the servant saw an PHYSICAL army surrounding them to take his master. He was afraid, otherwise Elisha would NOT have had to say "do not afraid". Elisha prayed for his eyes to be open. the servant saw who was standing with them: a greater army of angels than the worldly army against them. He was no longer afraid.

That was logical.

what do YOU think happened in that passage or is this another case of you misunderstanding what I have said?

from your statement, I would almost could you thought I said he was afraid of the angels. Which if you read my response is NOT what I said at all.

before he could see the angels, he was afraid because he thought it was just two men (him and his master) against an army. After seeing them, he was no longer afraid. :(
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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#65
??? and you have a deeper insight into the OT method of thinking???

the servant saw an PHYSICAL army surrounding them to take his master. He was afraid, otherwise Elisha would NOT have had to say "do not afraid". Elisha prayed for his eyes to be open. the servant saw who was standing with them: a greater army of angels than the worldly army against them. He was no longer afraid.

That was logical.

what do YOU think happened in that passage or is this another case of you misunderstanding what I have said?

from your statement, I would almost could you thought I said he was afraid of the angels. Which if you read my response is NOT what I said at all.

before he could see the angels, he was afraid because he thought it was just two men (him and his master) against an army. After seeing them, he was no longer afraid. :(
Yes Ariel, I do have a deeper insight in the OT method of thinking. That information is available to you if you will humble yourself enough to study and look for it. It isn't found by people figuring it out by their intellect, it is found by scholars who dig deeply into history. It has been helped by looking at ancient languages that scholars can now read. Scholars have labeled it Hebrew thinking.

It isn't "deeper insight" I have, it is checking carefully where the information comes from I learn from.
 
V

VanIsland

Guest
#66
@directline2iam



"If a man can not see, hear, smell, taste, or feel, does the man logically exist? According to your logic no.”

I have not claimed this. As a general rule, if you want to know my position on something, ask me. If you simply make assumptions and generalizations you run the risk of being mistaking. In this case, you have made a straw-man argument.

Straw-man argument: a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position... it is a dishonest debate tactic
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
63
#67
Logic is necessarily for being able to understand the possible and the impossible. Unless it can be demonstrate that the rules of logic are invalid, gods must adhere to them. Currently all conceptualizations of gods at current fall under the following two categories: Logically Possible or Logically impossible.

Logically Impossible:

Something that is logically impossible is self-defaeating, fallacious or paradoxical. For example, Claiming that “A” is “not ‘a’” is a self-defeating statement and can be demonstrated as false. Practical Examples: it is logically impossible to 1) Draw a circular square, 2) Put joy in a box 3) Sink to the top of a lake 4) be perfectly good and commit acts of evil, etc.

While it is nearly impossible to text the existence of supernatural beings by conventional methods; In this sense, if a religion assigns traits, behaviours or characteristics to a god that are logically impossible we can know that such a being does not exist.


Logically Possible:

Something that is logically possible is potentially true. For example, if you were to see an odd stone formation it is not illogical to consider the possibility that someone designed it. For instance, Both Arches National Park in Utah and the Ale’s Stone Monument in Sweden appear designed; however, only one is man-made.

If something is logically possible we cannot claim with certainty that it is untrue. At this point, we can only weigh in on it being resolvable or unresolvable. If there is adequate evidence we can claim with a decent degree of certainty that it is (or is not) true. However, if there is not adequate evidence it is unresolvable and any comments on its accuracy are mere speculation. If it is unresolvable there is not justifiable reason to accept it as true or claim with certainty that it is false.

The Question:

How does God fit into all of this? Do you believe that God is logically possible? Do you think God is subject to these rules of logic? If yes, do you believe that there is adequate evidence to justify a belief in god, what evidence is this? If you think this is unresolvable, how do you rationalize your faith?
OK, stepping away from your logically impossible and logically possible, I am an engineer and do design work. The very laws of the universe I depend on show the logic of a creator. They do not vary, there are no vagaries, they always work and always work exactly the same in every instance. Were it not for that, my job would be impossible...

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

There is not doubt that an intelligent mind (far beyond human understanding) framed the universe and any person in my field of endeavor who denies this is probably well below the idiot level (below 20 IQ) of intelligence.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#68
The Question:

How does God fit into all of this? Do you believe that God is logically possible? Do you think God is subject to these rules of logic? If yes, do you believe that there is adequate evidence to justify a belief in god, what evidence is this? If you think this is unresolvable, how do you rationalize your faith?
The problem with your reasoning (if indeed the motive for your reasoning is discerning truth) is that it is based on the flawed premise that reality can only be discerned via 5 senses. Belief in GOD is imminently logical when all of one's senses are functioning properly. Logical to a handicapped individual? Maybe not so much. As an example, color has no meaning to a blind person, who can only make decisions regarding color based on what others convey about it. It would not be logical for that person to make color-based considerations based on his own abilities, because to him it doesn't exist. It is a completely different situation, though, for those who can actually see color.
 
Apr 14, 2011
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#69
Is belief in God logical? I would say yes, it is.

I don't believe that human logic and faith conflict, instead the problem occurs where one's worldview dictates the logic or when one puts God in a box, which they can't do, because God by definition cannot fit into the box of human thinking. I was born and raised in a Christian household. I came to Christ in 2002 in Peru and did not know really anything about Him and did not even ask question. A few years after, I drifted away from God despite going to a Christian after-school club. It was not really until I believe the end of my high school years going maybe into my community college years or starting in those community college years when I was given over to pornographic addiction and stuff like that, that one day and other days after it, I felt an emptiness that I could not explain, I cried out to Jesus to rescue me. Why did I do that? Honestly, I could not answer that question, the only way I could explain it was that God was calling me, the prodigal son, back to Him. Since then while I still struggle with that addiction, I continue to fight it both in my mind and in my acts on the Internet.

Now, when it comes to books I recommend to logically defend the Christian faith, these are the people I recommend:

Ravi Zacharias, a former Hindu who almost died after attempting to commit suicide with some drugs, and then accepted Christ into this life and became an apologist.

Lee Strobel, a former atheist who looking through history, science, etc and also seeing the changes that occurred to his wife when she became a Christian, accepted Him as his Savior and Lord. I recommend his book The Case for Christ and the movie based on it.

P.S. If you are interesting in intelligent design and what it pretty much is I recommend Expelled, a movie narrated by Ben Stein quite informative and hopefully understandable by many about what intelligent design, the principles, and evidence behind the idea. Also, it talks about the science teacher and scientists who have been blacklisted for not believing in evolution and believing intelligent design. Those scientiftc organizations deny it has happened or say it was for other reasons, but they are lying and their statements are not. Michael Behe, I also believe wrote a book about it and I believe is the founder, though the idea has been around for a long just not to the scope that it is now with all the advances of technology in science nowadays.

Josh McDowell, I have not read his stuff but what I have heard is quite interesting and worth pondering, I believe he wrote More Than A Carpenter if I am not mistaken.

This is part of apologetics, the pre-evangelism, if you will of the Christian faith. Some people need it to get a foundation of Christian thinking and worldview, but not everyone is strong in it, I am not, but I know some stuff. Of course, when it comes to becoming Christian there are many who believe in Jesus Christ without going that deep. Also the faith of a Christian is not just a belief in God, as one person said it, even Satan knows that God exists and does not deny the existence of God. Belief for the Christian is coupled with other things such as slowly or quickly recanting positions that fly against what the Bible says, self-examining one's life realizing what weaknesses one has and giving them to God to continue to work on, praying for people to come to Christ, be saved, etc, and also caring about those who are poor, helpless, etc. Though some people do have a problem about that a caring aspect or question how it is done, should the individuals take responsibility to care for others, should the government mandate that people care for others, or should the government care for others and leave the individuals to live lives of leisure and other stuff. That is a tough question, but I digress. In conclusion, I believe that belief in God is logical but only if one realizes that God does not run on human logic, decision making, etc also one does not always understand why God acted in a way that he did, I don't always understand it either, I just take it my faith.

Why he spares some but not others. Heals some people from sicknesses but not others. I don't know all the answers but I can point to a book that is not just another piece of literature but is the word of God. Full of poetry, allegory, metaphors, similes, symbols, etc.

Full of characters that many times one can relate to, many of the characters (except Jesus) are flawed (i.e. Abraham, David, Solomon, etc) in usually many ways than just one. Jonah was prejudiced and did not want to follow God's command to tell Nineveh about God's judgment on them, David committed adultery and had lust issues, Noah got drunk after planting a vineyard after the Flood happened, and there are still many other stories.

I encourage you besides asking questions to look at the Bible itself look at passages, the advice contained, the remedy given, etc, you might be surprised by what you see and it may just rock your misconceptions, preconceptions, etc about who God is, what He is like, etc. I have read the Bible many times first using the NIV and then the Message, a paraphrase version of the Bible, through that and rereading the Bible I have noticed things I did not realize or see before. For example, I have seen things that one can use against the position that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament are not same or are different. The more I have been reading, the more I see how ridiculous that position is but I will not make fun of those who have it that would not be right.

So I leave a question for you, what is the barrier that you believe is causing you to wonder if belief in God is really logical? Is it just based on human logic, that you believe there lies the problem or is it something deeper. Is it that you do not want to have faith in someone that you don't always understand or don't understand? Is it pride, that you believe that humans are masters of the universe or stuff like that and we are left to our own devices? For awhile, even the Catholic church believed that the earth was the center of the universe but Galileo, Copernicus, etc turned that on its head. Or the belief for a time that humans had about the earth being flat that they believed they could support using the Bible. That belief would not have existed if someone had read Isaiah 40:22

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Sorry for my rambling. Those are my thoughts, my worldviews, what I have learned, etc.
 
L

letti

Guest
#70
My faith,is strong but GOD has allowed me to see things that has made my faith stronger.How do you convince those with no faith,those always needing absolute proof to believe anything?I do know whatever seems impossible for man is never impossible for GOD.
 
L

letti

Guest
#72
Yes,it can be if you have spiritual eyes to see.
 
L

letti

Guest
#73
Although,we as Christians will never attain perfection as Christ did.When you truly accept him in your heart he opens your spiritual eyes to see what you could not before.
 
A

alehandra

Guest
#74
Its good explanation willfolowgod
Keep growing...

Be blessing
-cilla-
 
Aug 22, 2013
275
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#75
Although,we as Christians will never attain perfection as Christ did.When you truly accept him in your heart he opens your spiritual eyes to see what you could not before.
Faith begins where logic ends
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#76
When you apply logical thinking to scripture, it is often distorted. God tells you how to read scripture, we are to read it as a little child. Logic says to analyze it, reason with it. God said He created the earth. How long did God take to do it? What was God's process? God says seven days, so was it accomplished in seven days? Logic. That is not why God told us about our creation. God told of that so we would know what to do about that God created us. God gave us seven days, we are to divide our time by that with the seventh used for rest. It isn't for our logic it is for our doing in response to the facts God gives us.

There isn't a word in the Hebrew language God originally used that speaks of only the ascetic. It always uses the action the ascetic sense of the words results in. When Hebrew was written with pictures, the word love was written with a picture of bringing gifts. It is only our modern minds that has separated being and doing.

God did not write the bible to be food for our logic and for our creative thinking.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#77
Redtent,

I'm offended by your assumptions, but this is neither the thread nor the time to discuss your false views.

You can not know if you have "deeper insight" because you do not know what insight God has blessed me with.

If you want to think yourself better than me because you keep the Sabbath, you tie tassles on your clothes, you don't eat pork and you follow as many as the OT laws you can while continuing to ignore or excuse yourself from the ones you break on a daily basis, then you are free to do so.

You don't know my life. You don't know how many hours I spent trying to learn Hebrew, the countless books on Hebrew culture and Jewish views on the Tanuckh I've read. You can't see into my house and read the various text in Hebrew, Greek or Latin I've gathered. WHy should you, since you never cared enough to ask?

Perhaps one day you will understand what Paul meant to count all that rubbish, all the keeping of the Laws, all of the ceremonies and rituals kept so that in the eyes of the world you could be held blameless.

One day perhaps you will know what moved Paul to utter these words:

Philippians 3
concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.


As for me I remember the lesson of my childhood. What laws I follow is not because I believe they make me more righteous or better than another, but because God has given me a deeper insight into HIs method of thinking.

I think I will agree with you. You may have a deeper insight into OT method of thinking,
but what you fail to understand is that that type of thinking was WRONG. that type of thinking was what lead the Pharisees and scribes to CRUXIFY Jesus.

You may keep your OT method of thinking, I will keep learning from God's Holy SPirit and His Word how to conform my mind to Jesus method of thinking. I will learn what it means to see the OT not with the eyes of the Hagar's children but through the eyes made open through birth from my mother from Above.

That is all I have to say to you Redtent. If you want to continue in your OT method of thinking, it is your choice.

However, if you ever get tired of those chains of lies they have you trapped in, I'll always be here to pray with and for you.

My apologies for this outburst VanIsland but I find that bullies will just find another target if not addressed.
 
L

letti

Guest
#79
No,power exists in the laws and tradition.They are in the power of the blood of Christ,and if you accept that truth in your heart and stand for him in your life.Laws and tradition alone have no power.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#80
The only way someone will believe or have faith in GOD is to be illogical is a LIE.

Most people have faith in God for a reason. They may not completely comprehend WHY they believe in God but in their heart they know because God brings them comfort, joy, peace beyond understand.

Some acknowledge that God exist. Some acknowledge the logical possibility of God's existence.However someone can do both yet still NOT know God. Still not have Faith in the Most High.

What is the difference between those who have faith and those who do not?

If you have faith it is because God has blessed you with it and your heart and mind are open to understanding.

Things in your life have shown you God's faithfulness and love. People, events, actions have reinforced the truths found in the Bible to show you that God speaks and cares and is present.

Everyone who can be called a child of God has their own testimony.

To belittle or place in your heart or mind yourself over any other child of God is a sign of immaturity and pride.

1 Corinthians 4

New King James Version (NKJV)

4 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.[SUP][a][/SUP] In fact, I do not even judge myself. [SUP]4 [/SUP]For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?



[SUP]8 [/SUP]You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us
I'm going to go off and pray.

Redtent, if you would like to reveal your "deeper insight into the OT" or give an example of what it means to have a "OT method of thinking"

perhaps you would show what "deeper insight" you might have on Elisha's servant and how he thought?