"Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

[Sanashankar]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I guess the purpose of the verse, was to show the authority of husband towards his wife. Eve failed in submitting herself to her husband, and everything went wrong. So it is God's commandment for women to submit herself to her husband.

Of course woman can declare the TRUTH. But maybe not in the church. Even the woman at the well. When Christ was talking to her about you have to worship God in spirit and truth… she ran back to town and told the whole city that she had just met the Lord and she started spreading the gospel.

There were highly educated women back in Israel.Paul had different woman help him out. Who supported Christ’s ministry? Women. It names Joanna and Susanna (Luke 08) and Mary Magdalene and there isn’t a man among them. Women supported the ministry of Jesus Christ.Also i understand that women are no some inferior species that will be absorbed into the male species. both are called "the sons [some times children] of God,", but the main thing is that we are still in flesh.

I remember a you tube video which was showing a woman preacher dressed so badly to attract young people to the church. Paul wud have understood such a day wud come and would has asked women not to speak in the church.

 

[brmicke]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I am hoping that you noticed RoboOp that I used the word "oversight" in my previous posting. I used it because I wanted you to see that I understand that God has given the Husband the same role in the marriage relationship that He has given the Husband in Church leadership. We basically agree I think.

1Ti 3:1 (YLT) Stedfast [is] the word: If any one the oversight doth long for, a right work he desireth;

In Gen 3:16 God designates the Husband to rule or oversee the marriage union.

1Ti 3:5 (and if any one his own house how to lead hath not known, how an assembly of God shall he take care of?) (YLT)


Respectfully - Brian

 

[brmicke]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I noticed a situation where a Woman preacher drew the entire congregation to Herself so much that when she left the church the church lost a significant portion of the membership because they were following Her.

The natural proclivity of the woman is to "desire the man" (Gen 3:16) this desire makes itself apparent when a woman wants to draw a man to Her. This (I feel) is what was done to the Church mentioned previously. I feel that this proclivity to draw people to Herself (a disciplinary result of the fall) is why a Woman is not suited to be in an oversight position in a body of believers.

Brian

 

[Stephen63]

Re: "Women keep silent in the churches": Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay Stephen thanks for answering but can I get a clearer answer.

You're now saying that the NT does teach that women shouldn't "grasp for authority in the church", but yet it can be given to them. Isn't that also true for men? So I'm back to my original question if I may:

Does the New Testament teach that there's any distinction between men and women with regard to permitted leadership, teaching, and speaking roles in the church?

Romans 16:3-5 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: [SUP]4 [/SUP]Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant" here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25 Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God.

Paul greets Nympha among other church leaders and greets her house church. She is the only leader mentioned by name in her town. Col. 4:15. Lydia had a church meeting in her home, Acts 16:14, 15 and 40. Also Chloe, whose converts are indicated as belonging to Chloe as a group or church14, in 1 Cor 1:11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you.

Then there are several statements in the NT such as Romans 2:11 (KJV) [SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no respect of persons with God.. and Acts 2:14-18 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: [SUP]15 [/SUP]For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; [SUP]17 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [SUP]18 [/SUP]And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Prophesy :

Louw & Nida Greek-English Lexicon
33.459 προφητεύω: to speak under the influence of divine inspiration, with or without reference to future events - 'to prophesy, to make inspired utterances.' προφήτευσον, τίς ἐστιν ὁ παίσας σε; 'prophesy, Who hit you?' Luke 22:64; ἐπροφήτευσεν ὅτι ἔμελλεν Ἰησοῦς ἀποθνῄσκειν 'he prophesied that Jesus was about to die' John 11:51.

Greek Strong's Number: 4395
Greek Word: προφητεύω
Transliteration: prophēteuō
Phonetic Pronunciation:

prof-ate-yoo'-o
Root: from <G4396>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 6:781,952
Part of Speech: v
Vine's Words: Prophecy, Prophesy, Prophesying



Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
prophesy 28
[Total Count: 28]

from <G4396> (prophetes); to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office :- prophesy.


I don't think so.

 

[Stephen63]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

And a separate question, Stephen (though very related). You say:

"Because of the sin in Genesis, the women's role was changed. In the beginning, it was not so."

But didn't Paul refer to not only the fall but creation ("for Adam was created first, and then Eve")? Doesn't that mean that there were distinct roles at creation, as part of God's original design (not just something that's part of the curse after the fall)?

Genesis 3:14-19 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: [SUP]15 [/SUP]And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. [SUP]16[/SUP]Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; [SUP]18 [/SUP]Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; [SUP]19 [/SUP]In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This happened as a result of their sin; in the beginning it was not so.

Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV) [SUP]26 [/SUP]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

In the beginning, equal blessing, equal commandment given to, & equal authority to subdue the earth. EQUAL.

 

[RoboOp]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay Stephen thanks so you've made it clear that you don't think there's any distinction between men and women whatsoever in the New Testament with regard to permitted teaching and leadership roles in the church, not even with regard to being the pastor of the church -- and you think that the NT even provides us example(s) of pastors of churches who were women in authority over men.

So that leads me to this big question for you and anyone who holds that position:

Can you explain why Paul said this in 1 Tim 2: "For Adam was created first, and then Eve"?

 

[1still_waters]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Do my ears deceive me? Do I hear psychological projection being used?

Hi Stephen63.

It appears you may have missed the entirety of Rick and I's back and forth. So let's start from the top.

I made this statement.

There you go accusing again.

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-7.html#post1159819

To which you stephen63 replied with..

Do my ears deceive me? Do I hear psychological projection being used?

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-9.html#post1160964

But the reason I said...

There you go accusing again.

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-7.html#post1159819

...Is because of a THREAD I had just seen RickShafer make about accusing.

Concerning the content of debate on these Bible forums;
when in doubt, always look to the accusers.
They are always wrong.
- (See Solomon judging between two mothers: the one who would kill the child and the other who would give it away to save it's life.)
- - Enough said.

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/71942-bible-forum-tell.html#post1159569

So he had just made a thread about accusing, yet he was accusing me of having a Bible interpretation for these motives. I found that rather interesting.

You are pasting scripture to your preconceived notions to horrific proportions.

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-6.html#post1159804

You can't mix and match prophecies to suit your dogma.

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-7.html#post1159816

So he thinks the motivation for interpretation is just to suit dogma and preconceived ideas.

Yet even in his own thread he indicates you really don't know the depths of someone's heart and why they're doing the thing they're doing.

This is unrighteous judgment.
Because they don't know the heart of the matter.
None of us knows the debts of anybodies soul, much less our own.
So how is is some judge by outward appearance?
Has nothing to do with judging arguments.
Has everything to do with judging appearances.

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/71942-bible-forum-tell.html#post1159845

So Stephen63 when you post in this thread and address me by saying..

Do my ears deceive me? Do I hear psychological projection being used?

Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-9.html#post1160964

No it's not a case of projecting. It was a case of me seeing someone making a thread about accusing, and not knowing what are the motives in someone's heart, only to turn around and accuse me of interpreting the Bible based on personal motives of dogma and preconceived ideas.

 

[Stephen63]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Hi Stephen63.

It appears you may have missed the entirety of Rick and I's back and forth. So let's start from the top.

I made this statement.



Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-7.html#post1159819

To which you stephen63 replied with..


Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-9.html#post1160964

But the reason I said...


...Is because of a THREAD I had just seen RickShafer make about accusing.


Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/71942-bible-forum-tell.html#post1159569

So he had just made a thread about accusing, yet he was accusing me of having a Bible interpretation for these motives. I found that rather interesting.


Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-6.html#post1159804



Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-7.html#post1159816

So he thinks the motivation for interpretation is just to suit dogma and preconceived ideas.

Yet even in his own thread he indicates you really don't know the depths of someone's heart and why they're doing the thing they're doing.


Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/71942-bible-forum-tell.html#post1159845

So Stephen63 when you post in this thread and address me by saying..


Link--> http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...hes-has-ceased-still-today-9.html#post1160964

No it's not a case of projecting. It was a case of me seeing someone making a thread about accusing, and not knowing what are the motives in someone's heart, only to turn around and accuse me of interpreting the Bible based on personal motives of dogma and preconceived ideas.

I said that, not so much from the discussion I missed, but from personal experience.

BTW, you do have a habit of "grabbing out" scripture & using it to 'splain yerself.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay so what I'm hearing from some here is that actually there's nothing gender-specific about leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church, except in situations where it just so happened that one gender was causing problems, so Paul addressed the particular gender that just happened to be causing problems at that particular place at that particular time, so actually it would equally apply to both genders if both genders were causing the problem -- or it could apply specifically to men if men were the ones causing the problem.

So in other words, if it just so happened that the men were the ones causing the problems at a particular time in a particular place, the NT writers could have just as well have said this:

"let the men keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but let them be in subjection, as the law also says"..

and "it is improper for a man to speak in church"

and "let a man quietly receive instruction with entire submission, but I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman; he must be silent"

And my real question is this, for the people who believe there's nothing gender specific about speaking, leading, teaching, being the pastor of the church:

Why would he (Paul) even go on to give this basis:

"For it was Adam who was created first, and then Eve."

(in 1 Tim 2 about a woman learning in silence with entire submission, and not teaching or having authority over a man)

Isn't it clear that Paul is indeed being very gender-specific, not on the basis of what one gender happens to be doing in a specific situation, but rather on the basis of the distinction between genders at CREATION? If it's not universally gender-specific, why in the world would Paul say because Adam was created first??

Just a thought for you guys who say that there's nothing gender-specific about permitted leadership and speaking and teaching roles in the church.

Sir,

With all due respect, I understand you believe women should not lead a church as pastor, and it is clear you are just following your convictions. While you have made an attempt to determine whether or not your belief is 'falsifiable,' might I ask you: What is it about women, per Scripture, that makes women unfit to serve as pastor? Rather, aside from the several scriptures you have quoted which you feel support your position, what makes women any less capable of serving as pastor than men?

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It's amazing how many hen pecked, efeminate, girl pleasers there are.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It's amazing how many hen pecked, efeminate, girl pleasers there are.

johnathanbchristian,

I understand you are in disagreement with the views held by some of the members of Christian-Chat.com; however, this is not the first time you have attempted to defame these members who have differing views. I am asking you politely, once again, please refrain from making these indecorous remarks. This is after all, a Christian site.

 

[1still_waters]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I said that, not so much from the discussion I missed, but from personal experience.

BTW, you do have a habit of "grabbing out" scripture & using it to 'splain yerself.

No Stephen I don't use the bible just as a way to "grabbing out" to "splain yerself".
Anyone interpreting the Bible could probably have that said about them from someone who doesn't agree with their interpretation.

As far as projecting things, I'm sure we may all be non-innocent in doing such, and the way you framed it, it almost comes off as saying you never do any of the above. But maybe I misread your tone.

 

[RoboOp]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Sir,

With all due respect, I understand you believe women should not lead a church as pastor, and it is clear you are just following your convictions. While you have made an attempt to determine whether or not your belief is 'falsifiable,' might I ask you: What is it about women, per Scripture, that makes women unfit to serve as pastor? Rather, aside from the several scriptures you have quoted which you feel support your position, what makes women any less capable of serving as pastor than men?

Hi Nicene

I understand that's an honest question from you and you're very nice about it. I mean this just as nicely. I want to ask you the same question, but with regard to women in the home.

Here's your question:

"What is it about women, per Scripture, that makes women unfit to serve as pastor? Rather, aside from the several scriptures you have quoted which you feel support your position, what makes women any less capable of serving as pastor than men?"

Let me change it to women in the home and ask it back to you:

What is it about women, per Scripture, that makes women unfit to serve as the head over the husband in the home? Rather, aside from the several scriptures, what makes women any less capable of being the head or leader in the marriage, over the man?

 

[Stephen63]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay Stephen thanks so you've made it clear that you don't think there's any distinction between men and women whatsoever in the New Testament with regard to permitted teaching and leadership roles in the church, not even with regard to being the pastor of the church -- and you think that the NT even provides us example(s) of pastors of churches who were women in authority over men.

So that leads me to this big question for you and anyone who holds that position:

Can you explain why Paul said this in 1 Tim 2: "For Adam was created first, and then Eve"?

I found this:
Jamieson-Fassett-Brown Commentary
Notes for Verse 13
Verse 13. For -- reason of the precept; the original order of creation.

Adam . . . first -- before Eve, who was created for him (1Co 11:8, 9).

It uses the 1Cor scripture to say that woman was made for man, not the other way around. This speaks about the family relationship, because back then, that's all there was. Adam was alone, & had no way to procreate.
While this can give an order to family relationships, it cannot be used concerning ministry.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Okay Stephen thanks so you've made it clear that you don't think there's any distinction between men and women whatsoever in the New Testament with regard to permitted teaching and leadership roles in the church, not even with regard to being the pastor of the church -- and you think that the NT even provides us example(s) of pastors of churches who were women in authority over men.

So that leads me to this big question for you and anyone who holds that position:

Can you explain why Paul said this in 1 Tim 2: "For Adam was created first, and then Eve"?

Timothy is written to men in leadership positions. Chapter 2 starts off with praying for all "in authority". Should a wife/woman push her authority over the husband's/man's? NO Should she (wife/woman) in anyway question the husband/man in his capacity as leader? NO It would degrade the husband/man by showing a complete lack of respect. Adam was created first. . .he is the head of the woman and then Eve as Adam's help meet. A woman/wife can assist her husband if he requested that of her - in any capacity that he needs her. I have no problem with a woman/wife being in submission to male leadership within the church, but to say that because of these TWO verses I am a lesser member in the body and that God cannot and will not use me to teach. . . I can't see it especially if I have the blessing of my husband for he is my head and he is my covering.

I just have trouble with pulling these two places of scripture where women ARE mentioned and base doctrine on that concerning women -

Am I a part of the body of Christ? Shouldn't I always be ready to give an answer to every "man" (man, woman, or child, i.e. anyone) that asks me a reason of the hope that is in me? Or am I to keep silent? That would mean that I shouldn't even be in this thread, nor on this forum because I cannot teach what I believe. . .the church is the body of Christ. . .it is not a building made with hands.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many. . . . . . .but God hath tempered the body together, heaving given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schisms in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another. . . .Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular

So whatever God sets before me to do. . . . .

 

[Stephen63]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

But maybe I misread your tone.

I think you did

 

[Anonimous]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Timothy is written to men in leadership positions. Chapter 2 starts off with praying for all "in authority". Should a wife/woman push her authority over the husband's/man's? NO Should she (wife/woman) in anyway question the husband/man in his capacity as leader? NO It would degrade the husband/man by showing a complete lack of respect. Adam was created first. . .he is the head of the woman and then Eve as Adam's help meet. A woman/wife can assist her husband if he requested that of her - in any capacity that he needs her. I have no problem with a woman/wife being in submission to male leadership within the church, but to say that because of these TWO verses I am a lesser member in the body and that God cannot and will not use me to teach. . . I can't see it especially if I have the blessing of my husband for he is my head and he is my covering.

I just have trouble with pulling these two places of scripture where women ARE mentioned and base doctrine on that concerning women -

Am I a part of the body of Christ? Shouldn't I always be ready to give an answer to every "man" (man, woman, or child, i.e. anyone) that asks me a reason of the hope that is in me? Or am I to keep silent? That would mean that I shouldn't even be in this thread, nor on this forum because I cannot teach what I believe. . .the church is the body of Christ. . .it is not a building made with hands.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member but many. . . . . . .but God hath tempered the body together, heaving given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schisms in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another. . . .Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular

So whatever God sets before me to do. . . . .

I always take into consideration the time, culture and audience and the context. Personally, if a woman is qualified and called then God bless her.

 

[Stephen63]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

It's amazing how many hen pecked, efeminate, girl pleasers there are.

It's amazing what you can learn about someone by analyzing one sentence.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

Hi Nicene

I understand that's an honest question from you and you're very nice about it. I mean this just as nicely. I want to ask you the same question, but with regard to women in the home.

Here's your question:

"What is it about women, per Scripture, that makes women unfit to serve as pastor? Rather, aside from the several scriptures you have quoted which you feel support your position, what makes women any less capable of serving as pastor than men?"

Let me change it to women in the home and ask it back to you:

What is it about women, per Scripture, that makes women unfit to serve as the head over the husband in the home? Rather, aside from the several scriptures, what makes women any less capable of being the head or leader in the marriage, over the man?

With all honesty, I don't think women are any less capable in a marriage, but there are definite gender differences which make men more suitable to protect the family, at the very least. Yet I do not see how differences in gender affect a woman's ability to serve God in the same manner a man is able to. That is to say, when I read Galatians 3:28, I believe Paul to be saying there is no distinction made between Christians or their ability to serve Christ, regardless of gender, race, etc. Aside from our biological differences, are there differences between the male and female soul that make women less capable of serving in the ministry as pastor?

 

[RoboOp]

Re: &quot;Women keep silent in the churches&quot;: Has that ceased or is it still for today?

I found this:
Jamieson-Fassett-Brown Commentary
Notes for Verse 13
Verse 13. For -- reason of the precept; the original order of creation.

Adam . . . first -- before Eve, who was created for him (1Co 11:8, 9).

It uses the 1Cor scripture to say that woman was made for man, not the other way around. This speaks about the family relationship, because back then, that's all there was. Adam was alone, & had no way to procreate.
While this can give an order to family relationships, it cannot be used concerning ministry.

Okay thanks Stephen so can you please clarify, if you really mean this.

"Let a woman learn in silence with entire submission. But I do not allow a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was created first"......

So you mean that in 1 Tim 2 (quoted above) Paul was simply addressing husbands and wives in the home -- not men and women in the church?

Can you please clarify if that's what you really mean.