Attack of the seventh day adventists

[JaumeJ]

It is never a wise practice to label a person's loving the wisdom and teaching from the law as that person thinking he is justified by the law. I love the law, it is not obsolete, yet I know my only justification is by the Blood of the Lamb. I do not see anyone's loving the commandments of the Father as his thinking he is justified by it. From the Master, Yeshua, he who teaches against the least of these laws will be least in the Kingdom.

I weary of having to constantly stress the difference between the commandments of Yahweh and those laws which Yeshua has shown us by His Example, are no longer. Anyone who loves will see the great difference when learning them and refereing to our Example, Yeshua. I love the Ten Commandments, and they are guides to conduct in Love.

You are estranged from Christ, you who are attempting to be justified by the law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
​

 

[john832]

No one accused you of anything. Just tired of being threatened - not necessarily by you, John. And my conclusion to this debate isn't to condemn others for their legalist choices, but to walk away!



Why oh why does everyone think every post I write is about them? That's kind of borderline. "It's all about me!!"

Maybe we need to start a post on the symptoms of borderline and paranoia, and how every post that people write isn't about them, unless they are directly accused in the post??????????????????????????????????????????????????

My post wasn't particularly addressed to you.

 

[john832]

On a slight tangent.....

John, did you get a new user ID? You've been around a lot longer than Sept. 3rd. What happened?

Not sure what happened there, some kind of hiccup I would imagine.

 

[john832]

Sabbath keeping itself is not the problem. It is the SDA, for they are a cult following a false prophetess, Ellen G. White.

Well, since I am not an SDA and disagree with dome of their doctrines, the I am outta this one.

 

[john832]

I don't know John well enough to hazard a wild guess. I can't judge a man's heart but I can comment on his own posted statements.

I enjoy getting in touch with our Jewish heritage.

One needs a heavy German accent to correctly pronounce my last name.

I enjoy eating Jewish foods,

I like American food, but eat a clean diet (not Kosher, there is a difference).

going to a Seder,

Never been to one in my life. What I know about them comes from books and videos.

hanging a mezuzah on my front door

I do not. My wife has a seasonal wreath on the front door, one for spring, summer, fall and winter.

and I have a messianic tallit.

I do not.

I enjoy them but never obey them.

Much of what you have referred to has been superceded. You forgot about tzitzits also. They have been superceded by the Holy Spirit.

I engage in them but not because of law. I am free to enjoy them or not.

I do not engage in them. This is where the understanding of the Old Covenant and New Covenant come together. These physical accoutrements were types of New Covenant spiritual fulfillments.

We can never mix mosaic law with grace as the two are diametrically opposed to each other.

Christ has NEVER been opposed to Himself. He gave those Laws to Moses. He does expect us to understand they pointed to Spiritual fulfillments in the New Covenant. They were SHADOWS of things to come.

Christ liberated us from the cruel task master of the law and brough us lovingly to a brand new exciting covenant based on love and freedom. When people tell me they obey the Sabbath because it is law, I honestly worry if they are saved. Legalism and grace are like oil and water.

Not at all...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

You have heard someone say the Law was cruel, have you proved it? What is cruel about this?

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

More cruelty...

Exo 23:4 If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again.
Exo 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

And I don't know how anyone could bear this terrible curse...

Exo 23:6 Thou shalt not wrest the judgment of thy poor in his cause.

Yes, I am being sarcastic. Typically, those who make blanket statements about the Law, do so because they know nothing of it.

Even worse, they are pouring new wine into old wine skins and the wine is being wasted as it falls to the ground. We follow Jesus not Moses.

Out of context and misunderstood again...

 

[john832]

Here is the best treatment of the Law and how it should work in our lives I have ever heard...

http://stlouis.cogwa.org/media/entry/which-laws-from-the-old-testament-do-we-keep-today

http://stlouis.cogwa.org/media/entry/which-laws-from-the-old-testament-do-we-keep-today-and-how-part-2

http://stlouis.cogwa.org/media/entry/which-laws-from-the-old-testament-do-we-keep-today-part-3

http://stlouis.cogwa.org/media/entry/which-laws-from-the-old-testament-do-i-keep-today-and-how-do-i-keep-these-l

 

[JaumeJ]

The above post, 205, is really nice and I identify.......thanks, and amen to it all......

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Lie

I have said over 10 times on this site that none are saved by works.

You seem to have a problem with me saying after we are reconciled we are to become obedient, so you say "LEGALISTS!!!!!!"
"FALLEN FROM GRACE!!!!!!!!"

You said in this very thread - http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ack-seventh-day-adventists-5.html#post1185980

none of us HERE bleoeve salvation can be gained by keeping Law, we have all stated that. yet that seems to be the "go to move" to "win" and debate when all else is lost. after seeing me say works cant save more than once i feel it is dishonest to continuse to put that on me, and these guy have said the same, mybe you didnt see those posts IDK, but im saying it again:

WORKS CAN NOT SAVE, but:

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

and here is a verse saying if one dosent do the will of father Yahweh and subject themselves to His instructions, Yahshua says HE WILL REJECT THEM, not maybe or kinda He says it clearly. So I think you are really calling the Messiah a "legelists."

Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."


Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.

You make not have said that none are saved by works directly, but you definitely said it indirectly.

 

[Hizikyah]

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Lie

I have said over 10 times on this site that none are saved by works.

You seem to have a problem with me saying after we are reconciled we are to become obedient, so you say "LEGALISTS!!!!!!"
"FALLEN FROM GRACE!!!!!!!!"

You said in this very thread

none of us HERE bleoeve salvation can be gained by keeping Law, we have all stated that. yet that seems to be the "go to move" to "win" and debate when all else is lost. after seeing me say works cant save more than once i feel it is dishonest to continuse to put that on me, and these guy have said the same, mybe you didnt see those posts IDK, but im saying it again:

WORKS CAN NOT SAVE, but:

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

and here is a verse saying if one dosent do the will of father Yahweh and subject themselves to His instructions, Yahshua says HE WILL REJECT THEM, not maybe or kinda He says it clearly. So I think you are really calling the Messiah a "legelists."

Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."


Iniquity is Word #458 from word #459, Greek Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning not subject to (Yahweh's) Laws, transgressor.

You make not have said that none are saved by works directly, but you definitely said it indirectly.

If you thikn about it you just testified against your own belief, 2 fold, one you post a quote where I literally said, "WORKS CAN NOT SAVE", and besides that all I did was quote the words of the Messiah, so if you think His words mean that and your wrong, you would be going directly against Yahshua's words. Just my observation.

 

[Hizikyah]

Also let me clear up my views, someone can claim "they believe" "they are saved" and "they accept the Messiah" all they want but if in reality (and im not saying anyone in particular, but as a general idea) every thing they do is directly against what Yahshua says they should do, and they deny and rejeact all He says, and walk against Yahweh and Yahshua, this person is not saved. Yahshua makes this clear many times directly and by saying if one dosent do ...... he wont enter. Yahweh knows our heart and mind better than we know our own heart and mind, people are able to "brainwash" themselvs, especially ones that are sociopathic and reprobate. Honestly, I wnat your views on this, we have gone back and forth many times, yet I dont think I have ever explained this exact point.

 

[Bryancampbell]

That's the thing Hizikya, you're mixing Jesus' teachings with the Law of God as though they are one of the same. Jesus said if you love me you would obey My commands, not the Law. His commands were the spiritual of what the law taught. If you obey the spiritual commandments of Christ, you fulfill the Law prescribed by God on mount Sinai.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Also let me clear up my views, someone can claim "they believe" "they are saved" and "they accept the Messiah" all they want but if in reality (and im not saying anyone in particular, but as a general idea) every thing they do is directly against what Yahshua says they should do, and they deny and rejeact all He says, and walk against Yahweh and Yahshua, this person is not saved. Yahshua makes this clear many times directly and by saying if one dosent do ...... he wont enter. Yahweh knows our heart and mind better than we know our own heart and mind, people are able to "brainwash" themselvs, especially ones that are sociopathic and reprobate. Honestly, I wnat your views on this, we have gone back and forth many times, yet I dont think I have ever explained this exact point.

My views are:

• a person is saved only through works of faith (e.g., confession of Christ, fruit of the spirit)
• works of law cannot save (justify or sanctify) a person
• works of faith mixed with works of law cannot save a person because a little leaven leavens the whole lump (e.g., tree without fruit).

 

[Hizikyah]

That's the thing Hizikya, you're mixing Jesus' teachings with the Law of God as though they are one of the same. Jesus said if you love me you would obey My commands, not the Law. His commands were the spiritual of what the law taught. If you obey the spiritual commandments of Christ, you fulfill the Law prescribed by God on mount Sinai.

I want to respectfully say I do not think you (and alot of other people in this world) honestly represent THE ATUAL WORDS OF YAHSHUA.

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, hhe will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your hneighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

 

[Hizikyah]

My views are:

• a person is saved only through works of faith (e.g., confession of Christ, fruit of the spirit)
• works of law cannot save (justify or sanctify) a person
• works of faith mixed with law cannot save a person because a little leaven leavens the whole lump (e.g., tree without fruit).

Do you think a person can lose thieir Salvation if they continue in sin after accepting the blood of Yahshua?

(not a sin, but really continuing in sin as a lifestyle)

 

[Bryancampbell]

Brother Hizikya, reread that verse again, in the chapter context. Btw my bible says commandments. He is referring to hypocrites, who teach the Word by not following it. Not keeping the law brother. Law of Christ and Law of God are not exactly the same, but they connected hand at hand as what Christians fulfill.

Matthew 5:21-22 talks about murder. He explains that you heard of the command of murder that you are guilty, but...but...I say to you that if you are angry with your brother you are guilty. He is saying if you don't follow the spiritual of what this command taught, you cannot obey this command.

The Law is taught to tell us what is sinful against God, the knowledge of sin.
The Spirit is teaching us what we must do to obey those commands. See?

Spirit walks us through them, so simply going straight to obeying the commands of the law leads to a dead end.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Do you think a person can lose thieir Salvation if they continue in sin after accepting the blood of Yahshua? (not a sin, but really continuing in sin as a lifestyle)

I do think it's possible, if not likely.

 

[john832]

That's the thing Hizikya, you're mixing Jesus' teachings with the Law of God as though they are one of the same. Jesus said if you love me you would obey My commands, not the Law. His commands were the spiritual of what the law taught. If you obey the spiritual commandments of Christ, you fulfill the Law prescribed by God on mount Sinai.

Who do you suppose was the LORD that gave the Law? Christ gave the Law. He says that eternal life is a gift, the issue is that it is not an unconditional gift. There are conditions. God does not give eternal life to a murderer...

1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Do the disobedient receive eternal life?

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

And what is the earnest (downpayment) of the Spirit?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

It is the downpayment on eternal life. It is not given to any and all, but to whom?

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God puts conditions of this marvelous gift that cost Jesus Christ His very life. It is not given out freely to anyone who will not meet those conditions. He already has a great being who refuses to obey, He will not have millions more running around the universe causing the destruction Satan has. He gives eternal life to those who show Him that they want it by being willing to do whatever He says.

Obedience does not earn eternal life. That was bought and paid for by Christ. Obedience is the condition that God asks us to meet before He will give us eternal life.

 

[Hizikyah]

Brother Hizikya, reread that verse again, in the chapter context. Btw my bible says commandments. He is referring to hypocrites, who teach the Word by not following it. Not keeping the law brother. Law of Christ and Law of God are not exactly the same, but they connected hand at hand as what Christians fulfill.

Matthew 5:21-22 talks about murder. He explains that you heard of the command of murder that you are guilty, but...but...I say to you that if you are angry with your brother you are guilty. He is saying if you don't follow the spiritual of what this command taught, you cannot obey this command.

The Law is taught to tell us what is sinful against God, the knowledge of sin.
The Spirit is teaching us what we must do to obey those commands. See?

Spirit walks us through them, so simply going straight to obeying the commands of the law leads to a dead end.

"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets"

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Bottom line Yahshua never said one single word against yahweh's Law, just the oppisite.

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; bitterly opposed to, Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

Everyone wants to act like im "self righteous" "fallen from grace" and "legalistic", but in reality I have and Yahweh willing will continue to submit myself to be a slave of Yahweh, joyfully. I dont need me, me, me, I need Him and whatever He wants of me.

Just for clarifacation, the pharisees literally made their own law, the oral law, called the Talmud, this is what Yahshua spoke against.

Mark 7:7-9, "But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you
may keep your own tradition!"

You said "Law of Christ and Law of God are not exactly the same"


this idea isnt Scriptual:

"On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets"

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

I dont strive to obey ALL of Yahweh;s Laws/Commands/Instructions for my Salvation, I do it because I can no longer live the way the world/satan says I should live, and there is only one place where we are told how we should live, the Scriptures. Yahshua says, "but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." I want to follow ALL the words of Yahweh and Yahshua.

Deuteronomy 8:3, "man does not live by bread only, but by every bword that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh, does man live."

I cant be striving to live by EVEY WORD if I throw out 99% of the INSTRUCTIONS.

 

[Hizikyah]

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Do you think a person can lose thieir Salvation if they continue in sin after accepting the blood of Yahshua? (not a sin, but really continuing in sin as a lifestyle)

I do think it's possible, if not likely.

I agree and how do I know how to do as Yahweh and Yahshua want from me than listening to their instruction.

The reason I stand so strongly on obedience is because we are told (and I think we all see) this world getting more and more sinful, and it is becimg NORMAL, no guilt, no speaking against sin, it is being accepted in the streets and in the churches.
Now im not saying we should start stoning everyone, but remember how Yahshua rebuked Kepha for the violent thought Kepha displayed (about the samaritans that wouldnt sell them supplies), modern times everybody in the church (not all but most I have been to) would act like you were wrong if you said half that much rebuking someone for their sin.

We are to build eachother up to strengthen the body of Messiah, in one way by holding eachother accountable, certianly not give place for satan by allowing sin to run rampant.

 

[john832]

You said "Law of Christ and Law of God are not exactly the same"

Jesus Christ was the LORD (the Eternal) who GAVE the Law to Israel on Mt. Sinai. This is the same Law that has existed eternally. The same Law that Satan violated in the beginning...

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The Ten Commandments were written in stone for a reason...

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.