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In all honesty -- I believe that your recent "epiphany" has caused you to be "carried about with every wind of doctrine" - or, at least - off in one particular direction that I believe is not according to what the bible says.
I do not want to "trip you up" -- I would much rather see you standing firmly on the scriptures - not allowing what you are uncertain about to undermine any part of the foundation of truth.
It is all too natural for us to "come up with anything" to "fill the gaps" that we are "so uncomfortable with" in our thought processes and reasoning. However, it is far better to "leave the gap open" and "accept it that way" until we can "properly" fill it with solid truth.
Be Careful.
I do not want to "trip you up" -- I would much rather see you standing firmly on the scriptures - not allowing what you are uncertain about to undermine any part of the foundation of truth.
It is all too natural for us to "come up with anything" to "fill the gaps" that we are "so uncomfortable with" in our thought processes and reasoning. However, it is far better to "leave the gap open" and "accept it that way" until we can "properly" fill it with solid truth.
Be Careful.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
This passage totally solves the Olivet Discourse mysteries that this thread is supposed to be about. I always took this passage to be some strange random comment from Jesus but oh no, it is the key to the whole thing. Once you understand what this simple little verse means, most of the end time mysteries fall into place. This little verse absolute destroys your (and formally mine) 7th trumpet theory.
I know I sound crazy and I haven't been on here very long so no track record here. But, I was saved as a child. My dad was a missionary and minister for 18 years and his passion was end times study. Unfortunately, he was a Pre-Tribber and clearly had that all wrong. Anyway, don't worry about tripping me up, dear brother.
I consider you an expert on end times things and you have opened my eyes to several new possibilities. That is why I would like you personally to try to destroy this new theory. Please try to trip me up Brother GRA. I don't want to be wrong about this. I seek the truth.
Not sure if you were addressing me sir but my theory is correct!! I can back up every word with just the clear reading of the Word. I don't need dispensationalism or "rightly dividing" or any other doctrine of man. It is all there in the plain reading of the word. If I'm wrong, let's discuss where you feel I am wrong. I am here to learn as much as to share.
M
This thread is dedicated to a study on the Olivet Discourse. This chart is the centerpiece of the study. It is a work in progress. I am posting it now to give you a "preview" of it so you can "look it over" and see what you might conclude...
I will try to update the chart with new information as I am able.
The chart is too large to insert in the post. Please just use the link above and open it in a new window.
As is normal for a thread in this forum - comments are welcome...
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I will try to update the chart with new information as I am able.
The chart is too large to insert in the post. Please just use the link above and open it in a new window.
As is normal for a thread in this forum - comments are welcome...
.
O.K. -- I await your full explanation of this verse - "the key to the whole thing" - that ties it all together...
Four disciples; Andrew, James, Peter and John, asked the Lord 3 questions, actually 2 questions but the second was a two-part question. They really ask 4 questions but we’ll get to the fourth later:
- “Tell us, when will these things be? (In response to Jesus’ question to them, And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.")
- What will be the sign of Your coming?
- (What will be the sign) of the end of the age?
So the disciples ask: “When will the temple and city be thrown down” and they ask “What will be the sign of Jesus coming (return) and the end of the age.”
END OF THE AGE is NOT the Tribulation period; it is the end of the world. Understanding this distinction is key if you want the rest of the scriptures to tie into the Olivet Discourse and if you really want to understand the message. If this isn’t understood, the Discourse can never be sorted out.
So the disciples asked WHEN and WHAT but they do not ask WHERE, or do they? More on that later. They already know the WHY so they don't bother to ask. The Lord never ceases to amaze me because He answers these questions exactly the way they were posed to Him.
He answers the first question, “When will these buildings be torn down”
15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.
18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.
There will be two such events. Satan tried to declare Himself God after Christ was killed and He “made desolate” the temple back in AD 70. This similar event will happen again. But this is the break, “For then...” this “for then” isn’t linked to the previous passages. The Lord is moving ahead.
The Lord then gets on to the next question: What will be the SIGN of Your coming?
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it.
24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!
34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.
If you get the breaks between questions wrong, you can’t solve this. The Lord is listing out the SIGNS of his coming above.
The first sign is: THE GREAT TRIBULATION itself. (Therefore, NO RAPTURE beforehand)
The second sign are: False Christs and False Profits showing wonders and deceiving.
The third sign given is that “Immediately after the Tribulation of those days”
The fourth signs are: The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Does this sound like a secret event? Heck no!! When Jesus comes He comes in all His glory for the whole world to see, Rev 1:7. Therefore all the passages that suggest immanency, thief in the night, not knowing the day or hour CANNOT relate to the second coming of Christ. Therefore, they must relate to the Coming of God the Father at the End of the Age.
We move on to the third question: “(What will be the sign) of the end of the age?
Jesus answers:
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour [SUP]f[/SUP] your Lord is coming.
43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Jesus begins his answer so simply but so clearly with “Heaven and Earth will Pass Away.” What clearer break can you have than that? Sometimes we (me included) over-think things when the truth is right there in clear text right before our very eyes.
See here that only the Father knows, when HE is coming, Jesus doesn’t even know because it isn’t Jesus who is coming.
The first and only sign is: It will be like the days of Noah, eating, drinking, marrying etc.
This isn't much of a sign as is it? This could apply to any time in history, including the Tribulation period although things will be pretty crazy then.
I have to split this in two, the BIG KEY is coming.
I mentioned the 4 disciples asked a fourth question, but you don’t see it in Matthew. You see the fourth question answered in Matthew; you just don’t see it asked. You have to turn to Luke 17 to find it.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them,
"Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
At first it appears that the disciples were asking where the one taken is going. But that isn’t it at all. Remember back to the original questions: when will these things be? What will be the sign of Your coming (and the end of the age)? The “where” here doesn’t refer to where will the end of the age be as that will be everywhere. It doesn’t refer to where the temple and Jerusalem will be thrown down because that is obvious. No, the “where” here refers to where will Jesus come?
So the disciples asked, “When, what (sign), and now where (are you coming)?” These are all the questions we would ask, right?
So now Jesus tells them WHERE He will come. “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
Let’s look at Rev 19 and see if we have found the “where.”
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had [SUP]c[/SUP] a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
It is so clear. Jesus comes for the Battle of Armageddon. He does not come at the 7th trumpet. We are completely wrong about the 7th trumpet. But more on that later.
Jesus only returns once. When he comes, he comes to stay.
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them,
"Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
At first it appears that the disciples were asking where the one taken is going. But that isn’t it at all. Remember back to the original questions: when will these things be? What will be the sign of Your coming (and the end of the age)? The “where” here doesn’t refer to where will the end of the age be as that will be everywhere. It doesn’t refer to where the temple and Jerusalem will be thrown down because that is obvious. No, the “where” here refers to where will Jesus come?
So the disciples asked, “When, what (sign), and now where (are you coming)?” These are all the questions we would ask, right?
So now Jesus tells them WHERE He will come. “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
Let’s look at Rev 19 and see if we have found the “where.”
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had [SUP]c[/SUP] a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses.
15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
It is so clear. Jesus comes for the Battle of Armageddon. He does not come at the 7th trumpet. We are completely wrong about the 7th trumpet. But more on that later.
Jesus only returns once. When he comes, he comes to stay.
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G
Read the following 3 accounts of the same discourse very carefully.
Matthew 24:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mark 13:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, [SUP]4[/SUP] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Luke 21:
[SUP]7[/SUP] And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Grammatically speaking, there are actually only two questions present in the Matthew account. The phrases 'what shall be the sign of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' do not indicate two separate questions; rather, the phrase 'of the end of the world' is an "extension" of / to the phrase 'of thy coming' - giving definition to the sentence in the way of:
"What shall be the sign of thy coming - which is at the time of the end of the world."
The same 'sign' marks both 'of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' -- both phrases are references of / to the same 'event'.
In all three accounts - the 'sign' is singular ( i.e. - one sign, not multiple signs ) - and points to the "these things" as a collective whole.
In all three accounts - the same two [essential] questions are asked:
1. "When shall these things be?"
2. "What 'sign' (singular) will there be to indicate that the 'these things' are about to happen?"
Only, the Matthew account adds more definition into the 'these things' than the other two accounts.
This is what they are asking. Jesus actually gave them more information than what they were asking for.
Read the following verses very carefully:
Matthew 24:
[SUP]36[/SUP] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [SUP]37[/SUP] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]38[/SUP] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [SUP]39[/SUP] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]40[/SUP] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [SUP]41[/SUP] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [SUP]42[/SUP] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [SUP]43[/SUP] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [SUP]44[/SUP] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. [SUP]45[/SUP] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [SUP]46[/SUP] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [SUP]47[/SUP] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [SUP]48[/SUP] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [SUP]49[/SUP] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [SUP]50[/SUP] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [SUP]51[/SUP] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Who is "the Son of man" --- the Father or the Son...?
( More later... ? )
Matthew 24:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mark 13:
[SUP]3[/SUP] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, [SUP]4[/SUP] Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Luke 21:
[SUP]7[/SUP] And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Grammatically speaking, there are actually only two questions present in the Matthew account. The phrases 'what shall be the sign of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' do not indicate two separate questions; rather, the phrase 'of the end of the world' is an "extension" of / to the phrase 'of thy coming' - giving definition to the sentence in the way of:
"What shall be the sign of thy coming - which is at the time of the end of the world."
The same 'sign' marks both 'of thy coming' and 'of the end of the world' -- both phrases are references of / to the same 'event'.
In all three accounts - the 'sign' is singular ( i.e. - one sign, not multiple signs ) - and points to the "these things" as a collective whole.
In all three accounts - the same two [essential] questions are asked:
1. "When shall these things be?"
2. "What 'sign' (singular) will there be to indicate that the 'these things' are about to happen?"
Only, the Matthew account adds more definition into the 'these things' than the other two accounts.
This is what they are asking. Jesus actually gave them more information than what they were asking for.
Read the following verses very carefully:
Matthew 24:
[SUP]36[/SUP] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [SUP]37[/SUP] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]38[/SUP] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [SUP]39[/SUP] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [SUP]40[/SUP] Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [SUP]41[/SUP] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [SUP]42[/SUP] Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. [SUP]43[/SUP] But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. [SUP]44[/SUP] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. [SUP]45[/SUP] Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? [SUP]46[/SUP] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [SUP]47[/SUP] Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. [SUP]48[/SUP] But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; [SUP]49[/SUP] And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; [SUP]50[/SUP] The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, [SUP]51[/SUP] And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Who is "the Son of man" --- the Father or the Son...?
( More later... ? )
GRA,
Your points about the questions presented are logical. But as you pointed out, Jesus gave more information than was asked. Jesus has the freedom to answer more perfectly than the perfection of the questions asked of Him. Perhaps the disciplines didn't have a clue about the millennial reign yet and were under the impression that when Jesus comes back, he sets up his kingdom and reigns and that is it?
But the differences in the questions themselves seen in the 3 accounts don't really change the way Jesus answered the questions. The Gospel is the "Good News." It is an account of witnesses of Jesus, the way he lived, the things he taught, the experiences he had, etc. We know that the Word of God is perfect. There are no discrepancies. It is consistent throughout.
The differences between these three accounts (questions and answers) are probably not any more varied than the difference in accounts a police officer would get if he interviewed 3 witnesses to an auto accident. A police officer must piece together the 3 stories and come to his best estimate of what really happened when he writes his report. This is what we are trying to do here. However, we are handicapped even more. Here, the 3 witnesses we have are relating the whole Olivet Discourse second hand as none of them where there. We don't have the luxury of interviewing any of them to clarify points. All we can do is read the 3 accounts and use other scripture to try to sort it all out.
I'm pretty sure Jesus went into far more detail when he sat down with Peter, James, Andrew and John than what was report to us. I bet the conversation went on for longer than it takes us to read the longest of the 3 accounts. Further, Luke's account is split into two parts, Luke 17 and Luke 21 which begs the question how much of this took place in one conversation on the Mt. of Olives verses over the course of several lessons and times?
In any event, whether or not the disciples intended to inquire specifically and exclusively about the Lord Jesus' return is unimportant. The answers given delve into both Jesus return and God's return at the end of the world. I may be wrong about the breaks being concrete breaks as Jesus very well could be going back and forth between Tribulation era and end of world era, but it is clear he is discussing end of world era at least a little.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
I believe the above two verse are about the end of time. The reference to "only His Father knowing" certainly seems to indicate that only His Father knows when His father is returning. Plus verse 36 seems to refer back to verse 35. "But of that day and hour" refers to when "heaven and earth will pass away."
We know when Jesus comes, there will be a gathering to Him. We also know that when God comes, there will also be a sorting of damned and righteous. I am certainly willing to accept that Jesus is talking about HIS tribulation era return instead of God the Father's return from verse 37 on however, I do think a lot of what He says could apply to the latter era also.
You've given me food for thought, so thank you. However, I do think I solved the carcass and eagle thing. You didn't comment on that. Since we both tend to agree there is only one 2nd coming, do you now agree it is at the Battle of Armageddon and not the 7th trumpet? If so we can put that issue to bed. But it would of course mean that the trumpets and bowls are sequential which is what Rev 15 certainly seems to indicate. "The Bowls are the Last of the Plagues." Nobody was able to enter the Temple until the work of the 7 angels was completed.
Your points about the questions presented are logical. But as you pointed out, Jesus gave more information than was asked. Jesus has the freedom to answer more perfectly than the perfection of the questions asked of Him. Perhaps the disciplines didn't have a clue about the millennial reign yet and were under the impression that when Jesus comes back, he sets up his kingdom and reigns and that is it?
But the differences in the questions themselves seen in the 3 accounts don't really change the way Jesus answered the questions. The Gospel is the "Good News." It is an account of witnesses of Jesus, the way he lived, the things he taught, the experiences he had, etc. We know that the Word of God is perfect. There are no discrepancies. It is consistent throughout.
The differences between these three accounts (questions and answers) are probably not any more varied than the difference in accounts a police officer would get if he interviewed 3 witnesses to an auto accident. A police officer must piece together the 3 stories and come to his best estimate of what really happened when he writes his report. This is what we are trying to do here. However, we are handicapped even more. Here, the 3 witnesses we have are relating the whole Olivet Discourse second hand as none of them where there. We don't have the luxury of interviewing any of them to clarify points. All we can do is read the 3 accounts and use other scripture to try to sort it all out.
I'm pretty sure Jesus went into far more detail when he sat down with Peter, James, Andrew and John than what was report to us. I bet the conversation went on for longer than it takes us to read the longest of the 3 accounts. Further, Luke's account is split into two parts, Luke 17 and Luke 21 which begs the question how much of this took place in one conversation on the Mt. of Olives verses over the course of several lessons and times?
In any event, whether or not the disciples intended to inquire specifically and exclusively about the Lord Jesus' return is unimportant. The answers given delve into both Jesus return and God's return at the end of the world. I may be wrong about the breaks being concrete breaks as Jesus very well could be going back and forth between Tribulation era and end of world era, but it is clear he is discussing end of world era at least a little.
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
I believe the above two verse are about the end of time. The reference to "only His Father knowing" certainly seems to indicate that only His Father knows when His father is returning. Plus verse 36 seems to refer back to verse 35. "But of that day and hour" refers to when "heaven and earth will pass away."
We know when Jesus comes, there will be a gathering to Him. We also know that when God comes, there will also be a sorting of damned and righteous. I am certainly willing to accept that Jesus is talking about HIS tribulation era return instead of God the Father's return from verse 37 on however, I do think a lot of what He says could apply to the latter era also.
You've given me food for thought, so thank you. However, I do think I solved the carcass and eagle thing. You didn't comment on that. Since we both tend to agree there is only one 2nd coming, do you now agree it is at the Battle of Armageddon and not the 7th trumpet? If so we can put that issue to bed. But it would of course mean that the trumpets and bowls are sequential which is what Rev 15 certainly seems to indicate. "The Bowls are the Last of the Plagues." Nobody was able to enter the Temple until the work of the 7 angels was completed.
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GRA,
I think I figured it out. I think our first thought was correct. Jesus returns at the 7th Trumpet. He comes down on a white horse will the "armies" in heaven. This scene is shown in Rev 19:11-16. When he comes, the believers on earth are gathered to him. We are then taken to a place of refuge, Zech 14. Just as the Lord gathers us, Satan gathers his army in Rev 16:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth andof the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
I think I figured it out. I think our first thought was correct. Jesus returns at the 7th Trumpet. He comes down on a white horse will the "armies" in heaven. This scene is shown in Rev 19:11-16. When he comes, the believers on earth are gathered to him. We are then taken to a place of refuge, Zech 14. Just as the Lord gathers us, Satan gathers his army in Rev 16:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth andof the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
G
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ~ Luke 21:24
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So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
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So then - we see everything described in Luke 21:34 as occurring after the beginning of the 'great tribulation'.
And, we see the 'great tribulation' continuing until [ certain events ] that occur [ a short time ] before the Second Coming of Christ.
If the abomination of desolation occurred around 70 A.D. - then it would seem that we are in the [ ~ 2000 year ] great tribulation now.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24?
WITH REGARD TO THIS VERSE - in the context of the Olivet Discourse:
When did / does the abomination of desolation occur?
How do you define the details of the description in Luke 21:24 in a way that "fits" the answer to the previous question?
In other words - define the "details" that I am talking about in a such a way that THIS VERSE makes complete sense.
If the abomination of desolation is yet future - how do you explain the description in Luke 21:24 ?
Verse 24 from Luke 21 is totally referring to end times, not AD 70 era events. Let's look at the context:
19 By your patience possess your souls.
20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.
27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
The companion verses are found in Rev 13:10, let's look at its context.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
I doubt you will believe what I am saying but try because it makes sense.
Notice in both accounts the similar passage in red? Have you considered what this means? This means to wait for the real Christ and not go out after the false one. Plenty of Christians, especially those that believe in the Rapture will go out after the False One. He will be that convincing. It is set up by Satan's rapture doctrine making people think the real Christ will come first and take them away. I know you don't believe in the Rapture so this should make sense to you.
To answer your question. Notice in verse 22 the reference to the "days of vengeance?" That when God pours out his bowls. This is the Day the martyrs under the alter have been waiting for. Notice in verse 23, the reference to pregnant and nursing babies? This is figurative, it means those who are "pregnant" with the lies of the False One. Nursing babies means you are beyond pregnant, you are actually feeding the lie, preaching it and teaching it. Christ is saying woe to those He finds doing that when He comes back.
The reference to the sword and captivity is also figurative and spiritual. Satan's wrath encompasses the first 6 trumpets. During the early trumpets Satan is filling the world with lies, like the Rapture Doctrine. Notice how most things affects a third part of this, or a third part of that? Then if you look at the Bowls, they are God's wrath re-paying the Beast and those who did harm to His prophets and saints. When He repays He repays DOUBLE. Notice the Bowls say ALL and not 1/3? If 1/3 was effected by the trumpets, what is left? 2/3. 2/3 at that time would be ALL but is also DOUBLE what Babylon the Harlot did to God's people.
So, the sword and captivity are an expression of spiritual warfare. The tribulation is the Temptation of Satan. The Olivet Discourse is all about this and not about Mountains being cast down with trees and grass burning up and seas turning to Blood. Christ never mentioned any of those Revelation symbols in the Discourse and neither did Daniel. The 6th trumpet is very literal though as we see the slaughtered in heaven. I hope this helps?
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G
***** SHAKES HEAD *****
How long is the 'times of the Gentiles'? When does it start? When does it end?
What is the shortest amount of time you might imagine it would take for the Jews to be "led away captive into all nations"...???
Are they all going to be back in time for dinner? . . . . . . I mean --- in time for Armageddon?
Are they all going to be "led away captive into all nations" after Armageddon??? . . . --- while the whole earth is shaking and the Wrath of God is being poured out???
JUST EXACTLY WHEN are the Jews going to be "led away captive into all nations"...??? ( in the future )
How long is the 'times of the Gentiles'? When does it start? When does it end?
It is true that the Olivet Discourse does not describe ALL of the trumpet events; however, it does describe SOME :
Matthew 24:
[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:
[SUP]24[/SUP] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [SUP]25[/SUP] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken
Luke 21:
[SUP]25[/SUP] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26[/SUP] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 8:
[SUP]12[/SUP] And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
I do believe in the Rapture --- the one with the 'minimum' definition -- defined by 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - that occurs at the 7th trumpet...
Have you tried to believe what I am saying? Because --- it makes perfect sense...
How long is the 'times of the Gentiles'? When does it start? When does it end?
What is the shortest amount of time you might imagine it would take for the Jews to be "led away captive into all nations"...???
Are they all going to be back in time for dinner? . . .
. . . I mean --- in time for Armageddon?Are they all going to be "led away captive into all nations" after Armageddon??? . . . --- while the whole earth is shaking and the Wrath of God is being poured out???
JUST EXACTLY WHEN are the Jews going to be "led away captive into all nations"...??? ( in the future )
How long is the 'times of the Gentiles'? When does it start? When does it end?
It is true that the Olivet Discourse does not describe ALL of the trumpet events; however, it does describe SOME :
Matthew 24:
[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mark 13:
[SUP]24[/SUP] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [SUP]25[/SUP] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken
Luke 21:
[SUP]25[/SUP] And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; [SUP]26[/SUP] Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Revelation 8:
[SUP]12[/SUP] And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
I do believe in the Rapture --- the one with the 'minimum' definition -- defined by 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - that occurs at the 7th trumpet...
Have you tried to believe what I am saying?
Because --- it makes perfect sense... The time of the Gentiles started when Jerusalem was overthrown in AD 70. It ends when the Lord returns. He kicks them out of Jerusalem. Look at this comparable passage from Ezek 30:
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 "Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Wail, 'Woe to the day!' 3 For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles. 4 The sword shall come upon Egypt, And great anguish shall be in Ethiopia, When the slain fall in Egypt, And they take away her wealth, And her foundations are broken down. 5 "Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, all the mingled people, Chub, and the men of the lands who are allied, shall fall with them by the sword."
Keep in mind you will have two groups in Israel in the end times, the 2/3 that will be cut off and the 1/3 who are saved, Zech 13:8. We know there is another war coming, right? The Ezek 38-39 war. The 2/3 are taken captive then and come back AFTER the Lord sets up His millennial kingdom. Look at the applicable passages from Ezek 39:
21 "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them." ' 25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name--
These events are related to the period just prior to the Lord's return which is AFTER that tribulation. We see this same description for the 6th seal. We know Satan is the Prince of Darkness and the Lord is light. So, there will be darkness that the Lord disperses when He arrives, Zech 14:
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
This passage does not go with the others. This is symbolic and spiritual. It relates to Satan's lies "dimming" the Word of God that is to say, TRUTH. Notice it is a third part of all heavenly light? The other passages are total darkness. By the time Christ returns, all those on earth (except the ELECT) will be worshiping Satan.
If you understand that the Bowls are God's wrath against Satan, his "beast" and those who worship and follow him, and you know that He will repay her "DOUBLE" then you see that the 4th Bowl is the opposite of the 4th trumpet.
8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
So God will be pouring out TRUTH during this bowl with the help of the two witnesses and the 144,000.
Yes we agree on this but you don't see the 7-7-7 vs. 6-6-6 yet. You don't see the Bowls being poured out before the Lord returns, even though Rev 16:15 proves this point. Trumpets 1-6 are all Satan's wrath. Trumpets 1-4 are spiritual, Trumpets 5-6 are the Great Tribulation where 1/3 of the world, mostly "Christian" are slaughtered. God responds in kind with DOUBLE repayment. The first 5 Bowls are spiritual and symbolic in return but measured out twice what Satan did to the saints.
1 The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2 "Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Wail, 'Woe to the day!' 3 For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles. 4 The sword shall come upon Egypt, And great anguish shall be in Ethiopia, When the slain fall in Egypt, And they take away her wealth, And her foundations are broken down. 5 "Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, all the mingled people, Chub, and the men of the lands who are allied, shall fall with them by the sword."
What is the shortest amount of time you might imagine it would take for the Jews to be "led away captive into all nations"...???
Are they all going to be back in time for dinner? . . . . . . I mean --- in time for Armageddon?
Are they all going to be "led away captive into all nations" after Armageddon??? . . . --- while the whole earth is shaking and the Wrath of God is being poured out???
JUST EXACTLY WHEN are the Jews going to be "led away captive into all nations"...??? ( in the future )
Are they all going to be back in time for dinner? . . .
. . . I mean --- in time for Armageddon?Are they all going to be "led away captive into all nations" after Armageddon??? . . . --- while the whole earth is shaking and the Wrath of God is being poured out???
JUST EXACTLY WHEN are the Jews going to be "led away captive into all nations"...??? ( in the future )
21 "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them." ' 25 "Therefore thus says the Lord God: 'Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name--
These events are related to the period just prior to the Lord's return which is AFTER that tribulation. We see this same description for the 6th seal. We know Satan is the Prince of Darkness and the Lord is light. So, there will be darkness that the Lord disperses when He arrives, Zech 14:
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. 7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light.
This passage does not go with the others. This is symbolic and spiritual. It relates to Satan's lies "dimming" the Word of God that is to say, TRUTH. Notice it is a third part of all heavenly light? The other passages are total darkness. By the time Christ returns, all those on earth (except the ELECT) will be worshiping Satan.
If you understand that the Bowls are God's wrath against Satan, his "beast" and those who worship and follow him, and you know that He will repay her "DOUBLE" then you see that the 4th Bowl is the opposite of the 4th trumpet.
8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
So God will be pouring out TRUTH during this bowl with the help of the two witnesses and the 144,000.
Yes we agree on this but you don't see the 7-7-7 vs. 6-6-6 yet. You don't see the Bowls being poured out before the Lord returns, even though Rev 16:15 proves this point. Trumpets 1-6 are all Satan's wrath. Trumpets 1-4 are spiritual, Trumpets 5-6 are the Great Tribulation where 1/3 of the world, mostly "Christian" are slaughtered. God responds in kind with DOUBLE repayment. The first 5 Bowls are spiritual and symbolic in return but measured out twice what Satan did to the saints.
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G
"PlainWord -- you are good, man - you are really good. You can take anything and twist it waaaaaaaaaay out beyond left field..."
And, it's not that none of what you say is true -- I can agree with some of what you say. But, when it comes to how it all fits into "the big picture" -- I think too much imagination has made it into your reasoning. I believe you are "over-spiritualizing" prophetic contexts - especially in the book of Revelation.
It is not my intent to insult you - you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.
"But, I really wish you would 'come back down to earth'..."
And, it's not that none of what you say is true -- I can agree with some of what you say. But, when it comes to how it all fits into "the big picture" -- I think too much imagination has made it into your reasoning. I believe you are "over-spiritualizing" prophetic contexts - especially in the book of Revelation.
It is not my intent to insult you - you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.
"But, I really wish you would 'come back down to earth'..."
"PlainWord -- you are good, man - you are really good. You can take anything and twist it waaaaaaaaaay out beyond left field..."
And, it's not that none of what you say is true -- I can agree with some of what you say. But, when it comes to how it all fits into "the big picture" -- I think too much imagination has made it into your reasoning. I believe you are "over-spiritualizing" prophetic contexts - especially in the book of Revelation.
It is not my intent to insult you - you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.
"But, I really wish you would 'come back down to earth'..."
And, it's not that none of what you say is true -- I can agree with some of what you say. But, when it comes to how it all fits into "the big picture" -- I think too much imagination has made it into your reasoning. I believe you are "over-spiritualizing" prophetic contexts - especially in the book of Revelation.
It is not my intent to insult you - you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.
"But, I really wish you would 'come back down to earth'..."
If you take even half of Revelation literally, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, you will never sort it out. To take any event in Revelation literally, you need a "witness" or other words, another passage in the Bible that tells the same literal story. The same is true for interpreting things symbolically. The Lord gave us a perfect road map right here in the Olivet Discourse. But even here, the Lord uses symbolism like with the "pregnant mothers."
I'm not sure what you believe about the trumpets but the first 6 are Satan against man. The Bowls are the answers to them and they are poured out in double strength just prior to the Lord's return. How do I know this, it says so in Rev 18:8:
8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day--death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
The Seals are of human origin. They deal with wars, famines and man's reaction to the Lamb's return.
The Trumpets, 1-6, are the wrath of Satan. They are against those on earth, including Christians not sealed with Truth
The Bowls are God's vengeance against Satan and those who followed him. They are poured out in the day Christ returns.
I could lay them all out in the Discourse for you if I had time. The seals are very literal as they deal with man and the physical earth. A quick study of the horsemen of Ezekiel tells you this. But the first 5 trumpets represent Satan's deception of man so it is spiritual. The 6th trumpet is very literal as 1/3 of the world are killed for NOT BEING PATIENT AND PRESERVING THEIR SOULS and so are Bowls 6-7. But if you are waiting for mountains to be cast into the sea and thousands of stars coming down with all grass burned up at the first trumpet but grew back before the 5th then who needs to come back to earth? If you think that 1/3 of the water will be turned to literal blood at the 2nd trumpet and a planet called Wormwood is going to fly by and make the water bitter, I have a some land to sell you in Florida.
Again, I mean no disrespect but do you think Eve really just ate a piece of fruit in the garden and that's why the whole world was cursed? Do you think Ham walked in and saw his dad naked and was cursed for it? Then you've never read Lev 18:8 or Lev 20:11 which says:
The man who lies with his father's wife has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
So Ham slept with his Dad (Noah's) wife, his own mom. That's why Noah cursed him. So much symbolism is in the Bible and most of it Hebrew so when translated into English, it is so easy to miss the point. I know much of what I write here is so different than anything we were taught as children or adults in church. Therein lies the problem. We are heading into Spiritual Battle the likes never seen before. Our earth lives are but a flash in the pan compared to our spiritual lives. People better wake up to this fact (and I don't mean you) fast.
I'm not claiming to have all the answers but new things are given to me everyday. I wish you success in your studies.