can anyone interpret matthew 24 vs 30 and 31

[homwardbound]

careful are we about to have another flesh fight, I am right you are wrong, when Father God is the only one right, and our interpretations are not always, hmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Love you both and all.
maybe agree to disagree, because God who has received the believer is the one that causes his children to stand and no one else.
Thanks

 

[PlainWord]

I view the Great Tribulation as being "dished out" by Satan - not God ( not part of the 'Wrath of God' ) --- and, it does not include any part of the events of the 'trumpets' or 'vials' in Revelation. I believe the Great Tribulation ends before any of the 'trumpets' or 'vials' events unfold --- 'trumpets' ( 1-6 ) before the return of Christ, 'vials' after the return of Christ.

The problem with that line of thinking is of course Mat 24:29-31 which tells us the Lord returns "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" the Tribulation of those days. So assuming the Lord is true to His Word (a safe assumption), then there is no time for the trumpets to be blown between the Tribulation and the return of Christ without them being a part of the Tribulation.

The bowls and trumpets are part of the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the 5-6th trumpet and 1-6 bowls, and probably the 6th seal. We see clearly from Rev 16:15 that the Lord still has not returned and this is placed between the 6th bowl and 7th bowl. The Bowls are God's wrath vengeance against Satan's earlier trumpets.

We see from Rev 18 that God pours out his Bowls in DOUBLE strength to what the Beast did to God's prophets and saints.

6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day--death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

We see the Bowls are poured out in one day, likely as the Lord is returning. This passage refers back to Rev 16. Each of the first 6 Bowls are poured out affecting exactly the same things that the Trumpets affected but in twice measure.

 

[PlainWord]

What i teach does not contradict ANY Scriptures, if you think so, then show what i have taught and the verse that contradicts it. You will not be able to do this, because it is not True. What i teach contradicts what you believe, not what Scriptures teach. What i teach contradicts what you interpret verses to mean. But Scriptures are clear. interpretations belong to God, not to men. Scriptures interprets Scriptures. yet this generation like to interpret by their own understanding, what they think it means, what they want it to mean. Interpretations belong to God, not to men. What i teach is from God, i teach nothing contrary to Scriptures. you will not be able to show even one verse that contradicts what i teach. So you can say that i teach contrary to the Word of God, yet you have not shown even one example of this, why? because you can't. So i will continue to believe God who taught me these things, you continue to believe your own intellect. That is your choice.

^i^

I already pointed out where you contradict the scriptures back in post #105. There is no Rapture before the Lord returns for Armageddon when He gathers us together, those who are alive and remaining from the Tribulation along with the martyred saints from the Tribulation which He brings with Him.

Invoking an earlier return where the whole church is raptured off to heaven is not interpreting, it is manufacturing. There is no need to continue debating you on this issue. You have been shown the truth and still don't see it so at this point it is best to leave you alone. But I would again caution you, when they say Christ is out in the desert or in the inner rooms, don't believe it. The false Christ comes first just as Paul teaches.

 

[doulos]

The false Christ comes first just as Paul teaches.

Please quote the verse where Paul supposedly teaches this. Book chapter and verse please.

 

[GRA]

The problem with that line of thinking is of course Mat 24:29-31 which tells us the Lord returns "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" the Tribulation of those days.

That is not what it actually says...

The bowls and trumpets are part of the Tribulation.

Guess again...

We see clearly from Rev 16:15 that the Lord still has not returned and this is placed between the 6th bowl and 7th bowl.

Not the way it works...

We see the Bowls are poured out in one day, ...

I do believe that the Wrath of God is "poured out" in a short period of time.


Reminder:

[ Order of Events ] ( NOT an exhaustive list )

~ tribulation period starts

Matthew 24:21
Mark 13:19
Luke 21:22

~ Christians martyred during the tribulation period

Revelation 12:11
Revelation 13:7-8,15
Revelation 15:2
Revelation 20:4

~ tribulation period ends

Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26

~ two witnesses; trumpet events

Revelation 11:3-13
Revelation 8:7-13; 9:1-3

~ Christ returns ( 'post-trib' or 'pre-wrath' )

Acts 2:20

Matthew 24:30
Mark 13:26
Luke 21:27

Revelation 14:14

Revelation 19:11-13,15

1 Thessalonians 4:16

~ Rapture

Matthew 24:31
Mark 13:27

Revelation 14:16

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

~ Wrath of God

Revelation 14:17-20
Revelation 19:15
Revelation 16

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is not what it actually says...

Really?

Immediately after tribulation of those days

Immediately, at once, straightway, forthwith is what the greek says.. so what else could it be saying?

Guess again...

Guess what? When has there been a time on earth that the tribulation is so sever the kings of the earth hide themselves and yell at God, saying who can withstand your wrath??

 

[PlainWord]

Please quote the verse where Paul supposedly teaches this. Book chapter and verse please.

2 Thes 2:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the

coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The object of this passage is the "Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him." We are told NOT to be deceived by any means. By what means??? ANY!! This means there is NO WAY, Christ is coming before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

Christ also gives this same sequence in the Olivet Discourse. The Abomination is seen first, then comes the Great Tribulation followed by His return.

Paul uses the inclusive word, "OUR" in verse 1. This means Paul sees himself in this group. Paul was speaking to the same audience in 1 Thes 4 as he is here. So there is NO WAY Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they were going to be raptured in 1 Thes 4 but have to wait for the Day of the Lord in 2 Thes 2. Therefore there is only one return of Christ and it is after the false Christ.

 

[PlainWord]

Really?

Immediately after tribulation of those days

Immediately, at once, straightway, forthwith is what the greek says.. so what else could it be saying?




Guess what? When has there been a time on earth that the tribulation is so sever the kings of the earth hide themselves and yell at God, saying who can withstand your wrath??

Whoa, Do we actually agree on something, LOL?

 

[GRA]

Really? Immediately after tribulation of those days Immediately, at once, straightway, forthwith is what the greek says.. so what else could it be saying?

Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events? -- and the bottomless pit? Does it say: Immediately after the tribulation of those days Christ will return... ? No - it does not -- does it...? Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: ~ Matthew 24:29 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ~ Matthew 24:30 "The Tribulation is OVER and there is still a space of time before the Lord returns! Do you see it?" TRUMPET EVENTS! ( #1 - #6 )

Guess what? When has there been a time on earth that the tribulation is so sever the kings of the earth hide themselves and yell at God, saying who can withstand your wrath??

Revelation 6: [SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Matthew 24: [SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. I am assuming that you are referring to the verses marked in this color. This expression of anxiety - in the context of this passage of scripture - occurs after the tribulation period, at the Second Coming of Christ. Everything in the 6th seal description occurs after the tribulation period -- starting "immediately after the tribulation of those days".... This is not to say that there is no "tribulation" going on during that time; however, in terms of 'events' in the End Time Scenario - the Great Tribulation [ 'event' ] is over at this point in time. Therefore, the trumpet events occur after the Great Tribulation is over. As is indicated in verse Revelation 6:17, the 'Wrath' is anticipated in the sense of "just having arrived on the scene" --- it is after the tribulation period also - and, in fact, is after the trumpet events... ( The 6th seal discription span of time is actually a fairly long one. ) Please see the 'Reminder' list quoted in post #125.

 

[GRA]

Really?

Immediately after tribulation of those days

Immediately, at once, straightway, forthwith is what the greek says.. so what else could it be saying?

Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events?

-- and the bottomless pit?



Does it say:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days Christ will return...

?


No - it does not -- does it...?


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
~ Matthew 24:29

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
~ Matthew 24:30

"The Tribulation is OVER and there is still a space of time before the Lord returns! Do you see it?"

TRUMPET EVENTS! ( #1 - #6 )

Guess what? When has there been a time on earth that the tribulation is so sever the kings of the earth hide themselves and yell at God, saying who can withstand your wrath??

Revelation 6:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am assuming that you are referring to the verses marked in this color.

This expression of anxiety - in the context of this passage of scripture - occurs after the tribulation period, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Everything in the 6th seal description occurs after the tribulation period -- starting "immediately after the tribulation of those days"....

This is not to say that there is no "tribulation" going on during that time; however, in terms of 'events' in the End Time Scenario - the Great Tribulation [ 'event' ] is over at this point in time.

Therefore, the trumpet events occur after the Great Tribulation is over.

As is indicated in verse Revelation 6:17, the 'Wrath' is anticipated in the sense of "just having arrived on the scene" --- it is after the tribulation period also - and, in fact, is after the trumpet events...

( The 6th seal discription span of time is actually a fairly long one. )

Please see the 'Reminder' list quoted in post #125.

 

[GRA]

Really?

Immediately after tribulation of those days

Immediately, at once, straightway, forthwith is what the greek says.. so what else could it be saying?

Do you see the connection between the two witnesses and the trumpet events?

-- and the bottomless pit?



Does it say:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days Christ will return...

?


No - it does not -- does it...?


Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
~ Matthew 24:29

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
~ Matthew 24:30

"The Tribulation is OVER and there is still a space of time before the Lord returns! Do you see it?"

TRUMPET EVENTS! ( #1 - #6 )

Guess what? When has there been a time on earth that the tribulation is so sever the kings of the earth hide themselves and yell at God, saying who can withstand your wrath??

Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am assuming that you are referring to the verses marked in this color.

This expression of anxiety - in the context of this passage of scripture - occurs after the tribulation period, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Everything in the 6th seal description occurs after the tribulation period -- starting "immediately after the tribulation of those days"....

This is not to say that there is no "tribulation" going on during that time; however, in terms of 'events' in the End Time Scenario - the Great Tribulation [ 'event' ] is over at this point in time.

Therefore, the trumpet events occur after the Great Tribulation is over.

As is indicated in verse Revelation 6:17, the 'Wrath' is anticipated in the sense of "just having arrived on the scene" --- it is after the tribulation period also - and, in fact, is after the trumpet events...

( The 6th seal discription span of time is actually a fairly long one. )

Please see the 'Reminder' list quoted in post #125.

 

[GRA]

Sorry about the multiple posts --- the java scripts associated with this editor seem to be problematic today...

 

[doulos]

The false Christ comes first just as Paul teaches.

Please quote the verse where Paul supposedly teaches this. Book chapter and verse please.

2 Thes 2:

1 Now, brethren, concerning the

coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

The object of this passage is the "Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him." We are told NOT to be deceived by any means. By what means??? ANY!! This means there is NO WAY, Christ is coming before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.

As I suspected you can not show a verse where Paul says the false Christ comes first. Instead you rely on a doctrinally based argument that only demonstrates your lack of understanding concerning the man of sin. While I certainly agree Paul is not telling them they will be raptured prior to the second coming that is about all I can agree with concerning your assesment of 2Th1-3.

But seeing as you once again have chosen to reply using a Scripturally bankrupt doctrinally based argument, let’s have a look and see why it is false. Before we begin let me say, I realize that this explanation could be expanded upon quite a bit, but due to limits on size of posts I have attempted to explain this in a simplified manner for those who would rather skip this simplified explanation in favor of an in depth Scripturally sound study identifying the man of sin may I suggest checking out a Scripturally sound study on the subject located HERE <click

Let’s begin by determining what/where the temple of God is.
Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
As the above verses demonstrate the temple of God is not a man made building!
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eph 2:19-21 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
So on the individual level our bodies are the temple of God (1Cor3:16-17, 2Cor6:16), on the corporate level all the believers built into the “temple of God” with Christ as the cornerstone (Eph2:19-21).

So unless you believe Paul would lie and falsely call a man made building the “temple of God” then we should not expect to find the “man of sin” in some man made building the Jews may or may not build (makes no difference if they do or don’t as that is not what Paul is referring to). Now I don’t believe Paul would falsely label some man made building the “temple of God” when he was the one who told us what the “temple of God” is. Having established that the temple of God is either our bodies or the corporate body of believers, let’s move on and see if we can learn a little more about the man of sin so we can determine whether he “sitteth” in a believer or if he “sitteth” amongst the corporate body of believers.

The term “man of sin” is only used once in scripture. The term “son of perdition” (which is used in an interchangeable fashion with the term “man of sin”) is used twice. So let’s have a look at this second use of the term “son of perdition” and see if it helps develop our understanding.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The verse above is in reference to Judas the one apostle that was lost. So how was Judas lost? How did he become the son of perdition?

Joh13:26-27 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

So as we can see from Scripture the “son of perdition” is one who satan enters. So what happens when an individual allows satan entry? Do they obey God or do they exhalt themselves above what is called God?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Aren’t those who live in open rebellion to God’s Word exalting themselves above what is called God? Sure they are let’s look at a few examples. How about the adulteress individual? Or how about the crooked business person that rips off his/her customers? While I know these examples seem simple aren’t they opposing God’s Word? Aren’t they exalting themselves above God by deceiving themselves into believing their actions are ok despite what God’s Word tells us? Aren’t those individuals shewing themselves they are God by claiming that they know better then God’s Word and doing what they please despite what God’s Word tells us?
1Co_5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
Let a little bad leaven in and soon the whole lump has gone bad. And so now we see who the man of sin is and how the falling away we are witnessing has happened. Do today’s mega churches (and many of the smaller ones too) teach the truth or teach to itching ears? How can they remain mega churches and bring in the big $$$$ if they don’t preach a gospel that satisfies the masses instead of just the believers?

When we consider that in today’s world the churches (corporate temple of God) has allowed people who live in open rebellion to God’s Word to sit amongst them it is no wonder the churches are falling away from the truth. Even as a child I remember that those who lived in open rebellion to God’s Word were not allowed to participate in church services, they instead were expelled. But sadly today’s churches don’t take the gospel to those who live in open rebellion to God’s Word and instead allow them into the church and preach a watered down gospel that says if you say the sinners prayer you are saved and then proceed to preach to their itching ears. The man of sin isn’t some boogeyman that rules the world. Nothing in 2Th1-3 states the man of sin is a false Christ, or that he rules the world. He doesn’t even show the world that he is supposedly God he only shows himself that.

Christ also gives this same sequence in the Olivet Discourse. The Abomination is seen first, then comes the Great Tribulation followed by His return.

Maybe according to your doctrine, but when one reads the Olivette discourse there is no mention of the man of sin. Your assumption that a he that sitteth is the same as in it that stand and the man of sin has something to do with the abomination of desolation is nothing more then false assumption built upon false assumption resulting in nothing more then Scripturally bankrupt drivel!

Paul uses the inclusive word, "OUR" in verse 1. This means Paul sees himself in this group. Paul was speaking to the same audience in 1 Thes 4 as he is here. So there is NO WAY Paul is telling the Thessalonians that they were going to be raptured in 1 Thes 4 but have to wait for the Day of the Lord in 2 Thes 2. Therefore there is only one return of Christ and it is after the false Christ.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

1Th 4:16 -17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Once again you are allowing your doctrine to blind you to the truth of the Scriptures. Paul is not telling the Thessalonians in 2Th1 that they will not be taken to be with the Lord in 1Th4:16-17. Please notice the bolded part of the verses quoted above. One would be hard pressed to deny that these verses are describing the time we (which includes all believers Thessalonians included as well as Paul or he would not have said we) are taken to be with the Lord. This is also the same trump described 1Cor15:51-53.

1Co 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Once again Paul uses the term we including himself so these verses must also be describing the same event as 1Th4:16-17

As you are led friend, as you are led!

 

[PlainWord]

GRA,

So, you are saying that the Tribulation is over at the start of the 6th seal and that the 7th seal and trumpets 1-6 happen, then the Lord returns at the 7th trumpet, then the 7 bowls are poured out??? I see. So you see Revelation in chronological order, the whole book? I don't see Revelation being in chronological order at all.

I think John recorded the events as they were shown to him but that does not mean the events were shown to him in order. Case in point, right after the 6th seal we see the 144K being sealed and the Great Multitude which came out of the Great Tribulation. This multitude is killed at the 6th trumpet which hasn't been described yet. They clearly were killed "during" the tribulation but according to you, the Tribulation is over before they are shown. Why seal the 144K after the tribulation too?

The seals (1-6) are of man: wars, famines, souls of the dead in heaven, reaction of men to Satan and his angels being cast to earth. Jesus discusses the first 4 seals in Mat 24:4-8. The 4 horsemen are first shown in Zech 1:8-11. These horses were sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth in Zachariah's time and at that time, the earth was quite. Now in Revelation 6, things have changed. Seal #6 is only Rev 6:12-13. We see "Sun as black as sackcloth of hair" and "Moon of blood", right? Keep this in mind. Now notice the break at the start of Verse 14 with the word, "THEN"? Verses 14-17 events occur just prior to the return of the Lord. Bear with me...

The trumpets (1-6) are of Satan: You see the 7 trumpets being blown between Mat 24:29-31, right? I see them being blown between verses 9-26. The trumpets are the wrath of Satan. They do not follow the seals, I think they run concurrently. The Great Tribulation is the TEMPTATION OF SATAN where He tricks people into thinking he's the Christ. What does Satan do first? He sets up his ONE WORLD GOV'T of religious, political, social, economic and educational systems. The first 5 trumpets represent these efforts. Verse 15 marks the middle of Daniel's 70th week. Trumpets 5-6 happen after verse 15.

Satan needs permission to harm God's children. God allows Satan to kill whoever worships him, at Satan's discretion. The 5th trumpet lasts 5 months. I believe the 5th trumpet represents the "great temptation or test period" culminating with the slaughter of the 6th trumpet (which includes many fooled believers who are seen in heaven as the Great Multitude). After the fake "rapture" where 1/3 of the world is slaughtered, the rest of the world (except the Elect which is now a small group of strong believers represented by the 144K) worships Satan via his Beast. Rev 11 (2 witnesses), Rev 13 (2 Beasts) happen during the 2nd half of the tribulation after Mat 24:15 but before verse 27. We see Satan's efforts manifested in Rev 17:5.

The Bowls (1-7) are of God and the Lamb: Rev 18:8 says the plagues come in one day. These plagues, or bowls, repay Satan double what he did with his trumpets. If you notice, the Bowls are poured against the counterpart of what Satan did, against his kingdom. Rev Chapters 16-19 further describe the demise of Satan's One World Government.

The Tribulation is then over. The Lord's return is described in various places in Revelation. Rev 6:14-17, Rev 14:14, Rev 19:11-21, Rev 20:1-6.

The 6th Seal, 6th Trumpet, 6th Bowl are of Satan: 6-6-6
The 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, 7th Bowl are of God: 7-7-7 Perfection and Completeness

Mat 24:28 is the 6th Bowl which is Armageddon. Joel Chapter 2 describes the scene of the Lord kicking butt and taking no prisoners with His 144K + the martyred. This is how I see it.

 

[GreenNnice]

plain word: Why seal the 144K after the tribulation too?

Revelation teaches that the 144,000 are saved PRIOR to The Rapture . They are part of those who come from sky with Christ, per 1 Thess. 4


The Jews will believe in Christ, that's the time that Christ comes again. That is the sign for mankind to see Him ALMOST coming from the clouds, literally, too, don't believe the confusion of symbolism regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Christ, literally, with His angels, WILL come from the clouds, and, it will happen soooo quickly, first, those dead, blip, with Him, 11/16 of a SECOND. Same with those on Earth. Blip. 'Blink of an eye.' This WILL be The Rapture.


What do you mean, plainlyworded, by 'falling away,' why does the tribulation have to come AFTER 'the falling away,' and, what in your mind is 'the falling away' going to be? Is it going to be a complete turning of those one Earth? Of course not? It's simply going to be the Earth in a corrrupt state, MUCH like The Flood, of incest and greed, etc. that will placate the Earth's people and their morality will be greatly 'dipped' in this service

So, what is 'the falling away' that you say is coming ? To me, 'falling away' is simply a 'turn of the mind' in humans from a state of a 'Christian nation' to one of a 'Demon nation,' if you will. And, are we heading that way..... Sure. There's still a lot of good going on, including churches, like mine, that are really reaching out, planting churches urbanly in our city. Great work ! Saving the lost ! Edifying the saved But, there will come a day when that CHANGES !

 

[leo1]

excellent, wish I had said that! guess I just don't have the patience any more.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Revelation 6:

[SUP]12[/SUP] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [SUP]13[/SUP] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [SUP]14[/SUP] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [SUP]15[/SUP] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [SUP]16[/SUP] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [SUP]17[/SUP] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Matthew 24:

[SUP]29[/SUP] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I am assuming that you are referring to the verses marked in this color.

This expression of anxiety - in the context of this passage of scripture - occurs after the tribulation period, at the Second Coming of Christ.

Everything in the 6th seal description occurs after the tribulation period -- starting "immediately after the tribulation of those days"....

This is not to say that there is no "tribulation" going on during that time; however, in terms of 'events' in the End Time Scenario - the Great Tribulation [ 'event' ] is over at this point in time.

Therefore, the trumpet events occur after the Great Tribulation is over.

As is indicated in verse Revelation 6:17, the 'Wrath' is anticipated in the sense of "just having arrived on the scene" --- it is after the tribulation period also - and, in fact, is after the trumpet events...

( The 6th seal discription span of time is actually a fairly long one. )

Please see the 'Reminder' list quoted in post #125.

Not sure where you get your thinking, the sixth seal is part of the tribulation, or the period called the "time of Gods wrath" or the "time of Jacobs trouble"

At the end of all of the judgments (the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls) we see the immediate return of Christ. The events which take place during this tribulation period, if left unchecked, would cause the destruction of all life on earth. This is what Jesus was talking about. If he does not intervine, all life on earth would cease or be destroyed. by the events which take place in tribulation.

so again i ask. when in the past have these events taken place?

 

[leo1]

we are in tribulation right now, the GREAT trib is the 3 woes starting with the 1st woe which is rev.ch 9/2,which tells what, (volcanoe or culdera) when, (starting 1st woe) how,(smoke covers atmosphere, darkens sun,reddens moon)who,(unbelievers or the beast will become influenced by bad angels[demons if you will]witnesses begin praying at this time!then all hell breaks loose!

 

[GRA]

So you see Revelation in chronological order, the whole book? I don't see Revelation being in chronological order at all.

Do you not remember this ? :

PlainWord:

"You mean to tell me that you do not believe that 'a star falling from heaven and opening up a bottomless pit' - from which come 'demonic' creatures, unlike anything you have ever imagined - is NOT on the level and scope of a cosmic disturbance...???"

All:

A "good and proper" study of the book of Revelation will require you to "give up" the following notions:

~ The book is written entirely as a chronological order-of-events - with no overlaps, gaps, skips, or jumps.

~ The details of the description of events are always written in chronological order.

~ No topic or event is mentioned / referenced / "visited" more than once.

Also - you must learn to look at the details for the sake of the details and not for the sake of timing.

( more later... )

I think John recorded the events as they were shown to him but that does not mean the events were shown to him in order. Case in point, right after the 6th seal we see the 144K being sealed and the Great Multitude which came out of the Great Tribulation. This multitude is killed at the 6th trumpet which hasn't been described yet. They clearly were killed "during" the tribulation but according to you, the Tribulation is over before they are shown. Why seal the 144K after the tribulation too?

Notice two things about the sealing of the 144,000:

~ There are only 144,000 "servants of our God" left on the earth.

~ They are sealed just before the trumpet events commence.

The great multitude of Revelation 7:9,13-14 "came out of great tribulation" ( verse 14 ).-- which, at the time of the sealing of the 144,000 - has ended.

The reason there are only 144,000 left on earth ( the remnant of the saved / church ) is because all the rest have been beheaded during the Great Tribulation for not accepting the mark of the beast, etc.

The 144,000 are sealed at / after the end of - not during - the Great Tribulation:

~ The Great Tribulation ends.
~ The 144,000 are sealed.
~ The Trumpet Events begin.

Jesus discusses the first 4 seals in Mat 24:4-8. { Not exactly. } The 4 horsemen are first shown in Zech 1:8-11. { No. } These horses were sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth in Zachariah's time and at that time, the earth was quite. Now in Revelation 6, things have changed. Seal #6 is only Rev 6:12-13. We see "Sun as black as sackcloth of hair" and "Moon of blood", right? Keep this in mind. Now notice the break at the start of Verse 14 with the word, "THEN"? { There is no word 'then' in the KJV - the verse starts with 'And'. Biiiiiiiiiig difference -- especially since there is a longer-than-you-might-think span of time between the events described in verse 13 and those in verse 14. } Verses 14-17 events occur just prior to the return of the Lord. { No. The Lord returns during the previously mentioned span of time "between verse 13 and 14" --- 13 before the Lord, 14 after the Lord. } Bear with me...

You see the 7 trumpets being blown between Mat 24:29-31, right?

The trumpet events are represented in verse 29. The phrase "and then shall the end come." in verse 14 is referring to the same point in time as the initial commencement of the trumpet events - which mark the start of the 'end' in that verse.

I see them being blown between verses 9-26.

I see these verses as being mostly past history - but with some of it continuing until Jesus returns.

Please see the Chronological Order chart in my Olivet Discourse study thread.

The trumpets are the wrath of Satan. { No. } They do not follow the seals, I think they run concurrently. { There is overlap. } The Great Tribulation is the TEMPTATION OF SATAN where He tricks people into thinking he's the Christ. { Not exactly. } What does Satan do first? He sets up his ONE WORLD GOV'T of religious, political, social, economic and educational systems. { He is doing all of that now -- which fits your premise just fine -- I believe we are in the Great Tribulation now... } The first 5 trumpets represent these efforts. { No. The trumpet events do not occur until after the Great Tribulation has ended. } Verse 15 marks the middle of Daniel's 70th week. { The crucifixion of Christ marks the middle of Daniel's 70th week. } Trumpets 5-6 happen after verse 15. { The trumpet events do not occur until after the Great Tribulation has ended. }

( That is enough for this post --- anything more that I wrote would probably just be repetitious... )

 

[GRA]

Not sure where you get your thinking, the sixth seal is part of the tribulation, or the period called the "time of Gods wrath" or the "time of Jacobs trouble"

The entirety of the events described in Revelation 6:12-17 occur after the Great Tribulation; however, they overlap the trumpet events - as well as the "time of God's wrath" and the "time of Jacob's trouble" - which are two separate things - they are not the same thing. However, the "time of Jacob's trouble" ( Armageddon ) occurs within the time frame of the "time of God's wrath"...

At the end of all of the judgments (the seals, the trumpets, and the bowls) we see the immediate return of Christ. The events which take place during this tribulation period, if left unchecked, would cause the destruction of all life on earth. This is what Jesus was talking about. If he does not intervine, all life on earth would cease or be destroyed. by the events which take place in tribulation.

The trumpet events occur before the return of Christ. The vials ( 'Wrath of God' ) occur after the return of Christ. ( It is Jesus Himself who "dishes [ ALL of ] it out"... )

so again i ask. when in the past have these events taken place?

Are you referring to this? :

When has there been a time on earth that the tribulation is so sever the kings of the earth hide themselves and yell at God, saying who can withstand your wrath??

This has not happened yet. It occurs after - not during - the Great Tribulation.