What is Dispensationalism?

zone · Nov 27, 2013

Isaiah 49:7
6He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." 7Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and its Holy One, To the despised One, To the One abhorred by the nation, To the Servant of rulers, "Kings will see and arise, Princes will also bow down, Because of the LORD who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel who has chosen You."

.....

It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel;

I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

okay?

like come on.

Romans 15
8For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, 9and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."

eternally-gratefull · Nov 27, 2013

zone said:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; [SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]“David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children,

You can't say this is heavenly jersualem. Neither Jacob nor the fathers ever were given that land, nor did they ever live there.

forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and MULTIPLY THEM!, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. [SUP]27 [/SUP]My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]28 [/SUP]The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”’”

As you said,

Like COME ON!

zone · Nov 27, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

right.
and it happened just that way.

they are here (waiting the Resurrection - and the eternal kingdom):

Hebrews 12
Our Kingdom Cannot Be Shaken
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling." 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect.

He isn't talking about the rebels and apostates.
we already know what happened to them, and what will happen on Judgment Day.

ALL ISRAEL as you keep dragging it around will not and has never been ALL SAVED.

ALL ISRAEL that WILL BE SAVED, will be saved in the very same way Elijah was told - ELECT REMNANT SAVED BY GRACE.

no other way, no other promise, nothing.

eternally-gratefull said:

so David will be the king?

eternally-gratefull said:

You can't say this is heavenly jersualem. Neither Jacob nor the fathers ever were given that land, nor did they ever live there.

Click to expand...

Philippians 3:20
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ

Galatians 4:26
But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household.

Hebrews 13:14 < TO ISRAEL - JEWS - HEBREWS - ANCIENT ISRAEL - SOME BECAME CHRISTIANS
For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.

okay?
no enduring city here, even as that Book was written.

they were warned, and so are we.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 27, 2013

zone said:

Don't even try that Zone. as I said. You CAN"T interpret this to be the eternal kingdom. Because of what was said will occure after. You can't go there!

No, Jesus will.

Funny how again, You IGNORED the fact they will LIVE IN THE LAND THEIR FATHERS LIVED IN, the LAND PROMISED TO THE FATHERS.

You can;t make this eternity or the future jerusalem. The fathers were niether promised this land nor did they ever live in it.

Post all the passages you want, You can't ignore the fact God said they WILL LIVE IN THE LAND THEIR FATHERS LIVED IN.

still ignoring what it says

1. There will be no kids born in heaven
2. There will be no multiplying of the children of Israel in heaven.
3. The land given to the fathers was here on earth
4. The land the fathers lived in was here on earth.

You can post all you want. WE ALL are looking for an eternal heaven, a land made for us. But non of us were promised land here on earth, or were takren away from out land because of our sin, and promised to be returned to that land when we repent.

Thus you will never be able to prove your point. because what is promised to heaven is NOT IN HEAVEN, but HERE ON EARTH!

zone · Nov 27, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

"And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which He sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

"And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that He sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.

"There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass" (Josh. 21:43-45).

Here is a carefully worded record, manifestly designed to arrest the attention and impress itself upon the minds of the readers of God's Word; which record declares in the most emphatic terms that God had, despite all the provocation, contumacy and rebellion of that people, fulfilled completely "all" He had promised and sworn to their fathers to do them; insomuch that of all the good things He had spoken concerning the house of Israel, "there failed not ought."

But that is not all; for Joshua, when about to die, assembled all Israel, with their elders, their heads, their judges and their officers (23:2), and after rehearsing briefly what Jehovah had done for them, he earnestly exhorted them to be "Very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the law of Moses"; to shun the idolatries of the Canaanites, not even so much as to make mention of the names of their gods; but to cleave steadfastly to Jehovah their God, as they had done during the period of his leadership (vv. 6-8).

And then, with the utmost solemnity and impressiveness, he warned them that, if they should "in anywise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of those nations... and make marriages with them, then they were to "know for a certainty that the Lord" would no more drive out those enemies; but would make them the instruments of His judgment upon the apostate people, "until ye perish from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you" (11-13).

And he concludes with these weighty words:

"And behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the Lord your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

"Therefore, it shall come to pass that, as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you. When ye have transgressed the covenant of the Lord your God, which He commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which He hath given unto you" (vv. 14-16).

It is specially to be noticed that Joshua's last message changes in character at verse 15 from an exhortation to a prophecy; and that, in the prophetic part of that message, he plainly declares that the then unborn generations of Israelites would transgress the covenant of the Lord, and that He would therefore destroy them from off the land. (That the prophecy had reference to future generations of Israelites appears from verse 31 of the next chapter, where it is recorded that "Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that He had done for Israel.")

And now the whole world has been witness for nineteen centuries that God has done just what He said He would do. And is there to be, in time to come, a reversal of this Divine decree and judgment? Impossible. We use that strong word advisedly. For to begin with, there is no hint in the Scripture we have been considering of the reversal of this decree and of a return to the old order of things; and "God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets." Furthermore, the terms in which God announced through Moses and Joshua (the founders of the nation of Israel) the destruction of that nation, exclude the possibility of its restoration.

And finally, it was necessary that the old covenant and all that was connected with it should wax old and vanish away, in order that place might be found for the new and everlasting covenant, the "better covenant, which was established upon better promises" (Heb. 8:6-13). It was under that old covenant, which had merely "the shadow of good things to come"- the glorious and eternal things of God's everlasting kingdom- that the children of Israel took possession of the land of Canaan. And now, not only have the old covenant and all the shadows connected with it passed away, but they have been replaced by the eternal realities, which those shadows represented for that era of mingled light and darkness. But "the darkness is past and the true light now shineth" (1 J. 2:8); so there can be no going back again to the time of dimness and shadows....

Chapter 6: God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Joshua

JaumeJ · Nov 27, 2013

Am I seeing correctly here? There are people who do not know the throne of David is the throne of the Beloved? If there are people here who do not know this, David is a word and a name meaning Beloved. In prphecy it almost always is in reference to the Son of Yahweh, the King of kings, Yeshua.

Try replacing the transliterated name, David, to Beloved when reading in prophecy of the Word, and you will be pleasantly treated to the informative nature of the meaning of David. The throne of the Beloved, the throne of David..........Yeshua's seat.

zone · Nov 27, 2013

FROM THE DESERT TO THE RIVER EUPHRATES

Those who hold the doctrine of a national restoration for the Jews, and with a territorial dominion greater (so we are told) than any they occupied in their past history, usually refer to the word of the Lord to Abraham - "Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gen 15:18), as affording support for the doctrine. The argument is - and it is regarded by those who make use thereof as quite conclusive of the matter - that this promise has never been fulfilled to the "seed" of Abraham, and hence there must needs be a restoration of national Israel, if only for the purpose of the fulfillment of this particular promise.

But this argument is based upon a two-fold mistake: first, a mistake as to the facts of history, for the above promise was duly fulfilled to Abraham's natural "seed," and the Bible contains clear records of the fact, as will be shown presently; and second, a mistake as to the nature of the promise; for the promise in its fullness runs to Abraham's true "Seed" (which is Christ), as clearly explained by the apostle Paul. This also will be shown below.

As to the historical facts: At Mount Sinai God showed to Moses how He would proceed to put the children of Israel in possession of their promised inheritance. He would not drive out the inhabitants of the land "in one year"; but He said, "little by little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land." And He goes on to say that He would set the bounds of their possession "from the desert unto the river" (Euphrates), and would "deliver the inhabitants of the land" into their hand, and they should "drive them out" before them (Ex. 23:27-31). This shows that the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, insofar as it was to be fulfilled to his natural seed, was not to be postponed to a far-off dispensation, but was to be accomplished in that era of the old covenant; and so it was.

Again, when Moses had brought the Israelites to the river Jordan and was about to leave them, he reminded them of the word of Jehovah spoken at Horeb; where He commanded them to take their journey "to the land of the Canaanites, and unto Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates"; and said, "Behold, I have set the land before you; go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them" (Deut. 1:6-8). From this it will be seen that, as soon as the Israelites had crossed the river Jordan, they were constructively in possession of the whole land of promise, from the Red sea to the Euphrates river. And once again, in this last message, Moses says: "Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours; from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be" (Deut. 11:24).

Furthermore, in God's first word to Joshua after the death of Moses, He commanded him, saying: "Now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou and all this people, unto the land that I do give them, even to the children of Israel" (Josh. 1:2). And what was the extent of the territory which God gave to the children of Israel at that time? The next verses answer the question: "Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast" (vv. 3-4).

Here therefore, we have a record of the fulfillment of the promise, considered as a promise of an earthly possession to an earthly people, in its widest extent.

Chapter 6: God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Joshua

zone · Nov 27, 2013

But there are later records which make it yet more certain that nothing remains, of the promise we are considering, for fulfillment to be a re-constituted Jewish nation. Thus we read (2 Sam. 8:3) that "David smote also Hadadeger, the son of Rehob, King of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates." This record makes evident that the eastern boundary of the territory of the nation of Israel was the river Euphrates." It shows, moreover, that part of that territory has been wrested from them, and was occupied by the King of Zobah, and then when David defeated the latter he did not conquer alien territory, but merely recovered his own proper "border at the river Euphrates." (See also 1 Chron. 13:3).

A little further on we read: "And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms, from the river [i.e., the Euphrates] unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt... For he had dominion over all the region on this side of the river, from Tiphsah even to Azzah, over all the kings on this side of the river" (1 Ki. 4:21, 24. See also 2 Chron. 9:26).

So much for the "literal" fulfilment of God's promise to Abraham and his "seed."

Chapter 6: God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Joshua

zone · Nov 27, 2013

But we learn from the New Testament that God's promise to Abraham, recorded in Genesis 15:18, was much larger than appears from the words in which it was spoken; and we learn also that, while it had Abraham's natural "seed" immediately in view, its fullness was intended for his spiritual seed.

For in Romans 4:9-25 Paul unfolds the great truth that Abraham was, in God's sight and according to His eternal purpose, the father, not only of a natural line of posterity, but also "the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised." And in that connection he refers to the promise we are considering, and say: "For the promise that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith" (v. 13).

Here we get a view of the vast extent and the true character of this promise; and we see also that the heirs of the promise are, not Abraham's natural descendants, but his spiritual children. And this is confirmed by what is written in Galatians 3:7. "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham"; and in Galatians 3:29, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

"The promise" referred to in this chapter of Galatians is the promise of Genesis 13:15 and 15:18; and verse 16 contains a very illuminating explanation thereof: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

Thus we find that the promise to Abraham embraced the gift of the whole world, and that the true and sole heir of that promise is Jesus Christ; through God's wondrous grace, those who believe in Christ are reckoned "the children of God. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:16,17). And this makes it impossible that there should be a future fulfilment of the promise in the realm of "that which is natural" (1 Cor. 15:46).

Chapter 6: God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Joshua

zone · Nov 27, 2013

"THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR"

But the Scripture does not leave the matter there. Chapter III of Galatians states the positive side of the truth, showing, and with all the clearness that could be asked, that Christ and His people are the true "Israel of God" (6:16), the seed of Abraham and heirs of the promises; but chapter IV presents the negative side of the same truth, making it evident that the natural Israel has no longer any standing before God, or any part in His future purposes. And further it is shown that the setting aside of "Israel after the flesh" is not a new revelation given to Paul, but was to be found in the O.T. records. For there is evident reproof in the words: "Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman" (Gal. 4:21,22). Paul's question implies that those who construed the Scriptures in the sense that is now-a-days mis-called "literal," should have known better. And he goes on to show that these things "are an allegory," in which Hagar stands for the old covenant and her son, Ishmael, for the natural Israel; whereas Sarah represents the new covenant and Isaac the true Israel, the seed of Abraham, the heirs of the promise. And the climax of the lesson is found in the words of Sarah, which the apostle here declares to be the voice of Scripture; for, in declaring what was to be the outcome of the controversy between the natural Israel, that which "was born after the flesh," and the true Israel, that which "was born after the Spirit," and which was being persecuted by the natural Israel, he says: "Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." And he concludes with this comforting statement: "So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."

It is superfluous to say that these New Testament Scriptures make certain that the national restoration of Israel after the flesh is not a part of the revealed will of God, but that the reverse is true.

Chapter 6: God's Promises to the Children of Israel Fulfilled by Joshua

how can we continue to deny what the Bible says?
i do not know.

it's very disturbing.

zone · Nov 27, 2013

eternally-gratefull said:

2 Peter 3
0But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

Psalm 102
25"Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26"Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27"But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end

zone · Nov 29, 2013

Re: What is Dispensationalism?

folly.

.......

He Must Reign: Understanding the Millennium

http://jamespruch.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/he-must-reign.pdf

James Pruch
Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary
March 2012

11 simple, clear, easy to read pages - shouldn't take more than 15 minutes.

a ton of excellent footnotes and references.

.....

really really really simple.

zone · Nov 29, 2013

BradC said:

ya we know.
your plan is to replace the church with unbelieving Israel.
how's that working out for ya?

harlotry is what that is.
tricked.....by fake Bibles and paperback novels.

ya think da gospel is bless those who bless the jews and curse those who curse da jews.

even though that appears NOWHERE.

zippola.

mind you....who cares about honoring JESUS?
we're fine teaming up with godless politicians and self-professing Pharisaical Rabbis.

BradC said:

HA?
you mean His focus is NOT on the church?

jew & gentile to be saved through the real gospel?

WHO KNEW?

BradC said:

God save us from the blind WOODEN LITERALISTS

BradC said:

YAWN

BradC said:

CAN YOU JUST IMAGINE?
that horrible awful Christian Apostolic Doctrine replacement theology. God building a CHURCH? say what?

no, we like our satanically blended Antisemitic & Judaized non-christian corrupted infantile beliefs better.

DA WAPTURE and stuff.

BradC said:

hmmm.......at the Second Coming for the goat & sheeps?

or before the non-existent 7 year tribulation that we made by tearing Jesus out of a 490 year fulfilled prophecy and attributing His Work for Israel and the world to SATAN.

just because dat's how we roll.

BradC said:

g-o-s-p-e-l.....o-f.....p-e-a-c-e....a-n-d......r-e-c-o-n-c-i-l-i-a-t-i-o-n.

take out the dashes to solve the mystery.

BradC said:

too bad God's word says nothing about Israel returning to that land again.
ZERO.

BradC said:

is it?
any kloo what the promise to Abraham was?
no....clearly not.

OH LOOK.....HERE COMES THE SILVER BULLET....THE 70TH WEEK:

BradC said:

what happened to yer wooden literalism?
490 years ain't 490 years.

BradC said:

what's da church era? your mystery gentile gentile gap church age?
that's not in the Bible.

BradC said:

OH NO! NOT THE TRIBULATION GAP MYSTERY GAP.

BradC said:

WHEW.

DA WAPTURE.

LOLOLOLOLOL.............coocoo

zone · Nov 29, 2013

BradC said:

wait - hold up......you got that wrong.

Christians United for Israel - John Hagee - (your boss) says:

"God promised to bless those who bless the Jews, and CUFI is blessed to be a blessing and their blessing will continue eternally.

"While millions of Christians support Israel, there are millions more who do not yet vocally stand up for the Jewish state. It is crucial to educate Christians on the Biblical and moral imperatives to support Israel and to build Christian support for Israel throughout America."

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed."

Point: God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses the Chosen People.

Why Christians Should Support Israel < John Hagee Ministries

Genesis 12
1The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2“I will make you [Abram] into a great nation,
and I will bless you [Abram];
I will make your [Abram] name great,
and you [Abram] will be a blessing.a
3I will bless those who bless you [Abram],
and whoever curses you [Abram] I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you [Abram].”

....BECAUSE:

Acts 3:25
And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'

Galatians 3:8
Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

...

but....what's really cool.....is we can just take Genesis 12:3 out of its context and no one will even check...

zone · Nov 29, 2013

BradC said:

who is?

who is debating the ramifications?

WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THE GOOD NEWS OF CHRIST?

answer: Jews.

and, they are getting what they wanted.

legitimacy before the world and especially within the Christian world - for Judaism (Talmudism) - a dead religion....through the claim of salvation through a Covenant that no longer exists.

promises to not be bothered by "That Name"....

and spiritual; (im)moral and financial enabling - FROM PEOPLE CLAIMING TO BE CHRISTIANS WHO LOVE THEM - to be even more entrenched in their delusion...

....and assistance and loooooooooving unconditional support as they carry on believing they have God on their side...when any FIVE YEAR OLD SUNDAY SCHOOL STUDENT knows there is NOTHING but wrath coming for people who are not in Christ.

but hey: some real estate will do....cuz we Xtian Zionists gotta go in the rapture....plus we don't know how to understand the bible, so we just use the same OT prophecies that are about Jesus and the Church and God's Eternal Purpose and cast them down and say they aren't about any of that.

cuz it's

A MYSTERY

zone · Nov 29, 2013

BradC said:

unconditional

document that there would ya redster....

lets see

1) please show me a Palestinian Covenant anywhere in the bible
2) show that the occupation of the Land (which is Gods btw) was unconditional.
3) show that God did not fulfill His promise TO ABRAHAM AND HIS LITERAL DESCENDANTS completely....before Christ came - He did. and if you say he didnt...you do not know the scriptures.
4) they were brought to the Land out of EGYPT....given it FULLY under Joshua; David (& Solomon - the dead branch of the lineage).
5) they returned from Babylon (those who cared to)...in time for the REAL PROMISE...which some rejected, and so do you.
6) the Land was a type....throw the jews a bone anyways, eh....you`ll be gone when the blood starts flowing.

zone · Nov 29, 2013

BradC said:

The Church And Israel

Stanley Toussaint
Senior Professor Emeritus in Bible Exposition
Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, TX

Importance of the Subject

In his classic work, Dispensationalism Today, Ryrie sets forth a threefold sine qua non of dispensationalism—a distinction between Israel and the Church, a literal hermeneutic, and the glory of God as His purpose on earth.[2] Of these three, undoubtedly the most important is the distinction between Israel and the Church. Ryrie calls this “the most basic theological test of whether or not a man is a dispensationalist.”[3]

He calls it the “essence of dispensationalism.”[4] He goes so far as to say, “The nature of the church is a crucial point of difference between dispensationalism and other doctrinal viewpoints. Indeed, ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the Church, is the touchstone of dispensationalism.”[5]

All dispensationalists would agree that these statements are true. However, the degree of the difference has been and still is a matter of debate. If the Church and Israel become so blurred in dispensationalism that there is no separation between them, dispensationalism will become as extinct as the pitied dodo bird.....

....

Changes in Viewpoint

In the original form of Darby’s dispensationalism, the line drawn between Israel and the Church was heavy, dark, and broad. According to Darby the promises to the Church are spiritual and heavenly whereas those to Israel and the nations are earthly. The tribulation and the millennium do not concern the Church for those prophecies are earthly. This distinction in Darby’s theology has been summarized succinctly and accurately by Blaising.[6] In a word in classical dispensationalism the Jews are God’s earthly people and the Church is made up of God’s heavenly people. This dualism was maintained by dispensationalists for more than a hundred years by men like Gaebelein, Larkin, Scofield and Chafer.

....

Gaebelein, whose commentary on Matthew was published in 1910, wrote that the promises to Israel are “all earthly” and then asserted, “The church, however, is something entirely different. The hope of the church, the place of the church, the calling of the church, the destiny of the church, the reigning and the ruling of the church is not earthly, but it is heavenly.”[7] In 1920 Larkin wrote, “Again the ‘wife’ (Israel) is to reside in the earthly Jerusalem during the Millennium, while the ‘Bride’ (the Church) will reside in the New Jerusalem.”[8]

....

Lewis Sperry Chafer, a founding father and the first president of Dallas Theological Seminary, was very influential in making a division between God’s earthly purpose for Israel and His heavenly purpose for the Church. Concerning Israel he wrote, “The particular point in view here is the fact that all her blessings, her riches both temporal and spiritual, become her portion when she enters the land. This is the heart of Old Testament prediction. Israel can never be blessed apart from her land.”[11]

....

OH DEAR.....WE MIGHT BECOME THE PITIED DODO BIRD....BETTER GET REVISING:

....

With Ryrie’s Dispensationalism Today published in 1965 a definite shift is seen, a revisionism that had been in process for some 10 or 15 years. Blaising notes,

It is amazing that in the writings of Walvoord, Pentecost, Ryrie, and McClain published in the 1950's and 1960's, the heavenly/earthly dualistic language is gone.

A distinction between Israel and the church is vigorously asserted and all the theological structures of distinction are present except that the eternal destinies of the two peoples share the same sphere.

Consequently the heavenly/earthly descriptions are dropped. Thus is begun a slow movement away from the scholastic, classic, absolute distinction found from Darby to Chafer . . .[13]

cont....

(and we wonder why we just can not make any sense of the Scriptures...and why Dispensationlism is considered a CULT)

zone · Nov 29, 2013

Walvoord, Pentecost, Ryrie, and McClain take various positions as to the destinies of Israel and the Church. Pentecost believes that during the millennium saved Jews and Gentiles who survive the tribulation will inherit Christ’s kingdom on earth.

The Jews will have prominence in the kingdom as they enter into their blessings promised in the Old Testament. The resurrected saints of both Testaments will inhabit the heavenly Jerusalem from which the Lord and the saints will rule during the millennium.

This heavenly Jerusalem will be in the air over the earth.

During eternity the New Jerusalem will be on earth to be inhabited by God’s saints while Israel, all of whom will have glorified bodies, reside on the purged earth.[14]

OH YA THAT MAKES SENSE - YA...ITS NOT WRITTEN ANYWHERE.
BUT WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO...WE STARTED FROM A SWAMP AND CANT GET OUT.

...

Sauer believes all saved—resurrected and non–resurrected—will be on earth during the millennium and then in eternity will be inhabitants of the New Jerusalem on a renovated earth.[15] Interestingly Ice and Demy state, “Scripture is not clear as to whether Israel, the church, and other believer groups will maintain their distinctions throughout eternity.”[16]

SCRIPTURE IS NOT CLEAR ON THAT, EH.

1) Israel
2) The Church
3) Other Believer Groups

ALL IN ETERNITY - MAYBE SEPARATE WE DONT KNOW BECAUSE WE ARE TOTALLY BLIND.
AND ARE LEADING THE BLIND.

we couldnt stand the idea of ONE PEOPLE - so we had to make THREE.
we dont care if that overthrows what JESUS CHRIST SUFFERED AND DIED FOR.
because our founding fathers were RACISTS.

...

Fruchtenbaum sees the Church ruling with Christ over Gentiles during the millennium with Israel as the leading nation, but then projects the New Jerusalem on a new earth will be the eternal abode of all the redeemed.[17]

LEADING NATION.....HUH

OH...BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO FILL THE MILLENNIUM WITH FANTASY SINCE IT DOESNT EXIST.

...

McClain believes the resurrected saints will rule with Christ during the millennium but in the eternal refurbished earth the Church will have a special place in the New Jerusalem. He wrote, “The members of the Church will be its honored citizens (Phil. 3:20, ASV). But the saved of all ages will have free access to its glories and benefits (Rev. 21:24-26).[18]

OKAY MR MCCLAIN....WHATS THE MILLENNIUM FOR

no, this is DODO potential....we need MORE REVISION.
our foundation is sand but we are determined to prop this SHACK UP.

cont.....

zone · Nov 29, 2013

OH HERE WE GO...SOMETHING LESS OBVIOUSLY HERETICAL RACIST AND DODO-ISH:

Progressive dispensationalism[19] has taken a new tack.

It still makes something of a difference between Israel and the Church[20] but that distinction is not nearly as sharp.

OH....well isnt that special.
and isnt that what makes us more acceptable now.....though just as deadly.

....

Those who hold to this position believe the promised kingdom has already begun; progressive dispensationalists assert the Old Testament covenants and promises have had a beginning, a partial fulfillment in the Church, but will have their ultimate fulfillment in the millennium and eternity.[21] Their view of the kingdom is similar to Ladd’s.

OKAY.....SO THE CHURCH IS KINDA IN THERE.
NOT AN AFTERTHOUGHT (maybe) ..... BUT WE STILL HAVE THAT 1,000 YEAR THING TO DEAL WITH.
LETS SEE............WHAT WE HAVE DONE TO THE KINGDOM OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST......(we have to tweak this thing)

....

That is, progressive dispensationalists believe the kingdom was present when Christ ministered on earth[22] but His reign was not initiated until His ascension. At that time He took His seat on the throne of David.[23] Thus the kingdom has been inaugurated but will only come in its fullness in the millennium and eternity.[24] The terms “already. . .not yet” punctuate their discussion.

WOW...THATS ALMOST CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE NOW.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT 1,000 YEARS THAT DOESNT EXIST

how do we get around THAT

.....

Undoubtedly this does represent a shift from classical and revised dispensationalism.

For progressive dispensationalists the primary distinction between Israel and the Church is found in the Old Testament covenants, promises and prophecies. These were made with and spoken to Israel. Even though the Davidic kingdom has already been inaugurated, according to this view, the Church has been brought into Jewish blessings today. It is alleged that although the Church may be called “the new Israel,”[25] Israel will yet see the fulfillment of their promised blessings in God’s future program.

OKAY...SAME OLD DODO WITH A FACE LIFT

what future program

....

In this they see a distinction between the Church and Israel because the covenants—Abrahamic, Davidic, and New—were given to Israel.

SO WHATS THE DIFF GUYS........

ANSWER: there isnt one....this is the very same monster it was when RACIST crazyman Darby and Judaic stooge Scofield invented it.

cont....

konroh · Nov 29, 2013

Zone, the amazing thing about you is that you really seem to be a scholar. You seem to understand the issues. The crazy thing about it is that unlike a scholar you don't seem to have respect for the issues. Dispensationalists and Covenant Theologians may disagree, but they respect where the other is coming from. The differences are wide and deep and the disagreement is strong, but there is in much intensive study a respect garnered from increased learning. There is a respect that we are all trying to understand the Bible, the dispensationalists take the hermeneutical approach to understand the Bible as each individual book's authorial intent conveys. The Covenant Theologians take the approach that the NT re-interprets the OT, a wholistic approach. There is much to agree with in a Covenant of Grace that covers both the OT and NT, even though this specific term is a theological and not a biblical term. In fact, the biggest distinction in the Bible seems to be between the OT and the NT, Israel and the Church.

I will humbly accept that I need to have respect for an approach that is different from my own, recognizing that we are all trying to understand God's word. Can you do the same?

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