Attack of the Judaizers

[Hizikyah]

I see folks quoting Heb. 4 without looking at chapter 3.
I ask you all to forgive the length of this post; I post it all so you won't have to look it up.

Heb. 3:12-19
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME.”

For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.


Heb 4:1-11
Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS”; and again in this passage, “THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.” Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

The disobedience spoken of here seems (to me, at least ) to be the sin of unbelief.
"the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard."

This is a warning to not follow those who died in the wilderness because they did not believe the good news they were told.
Who is "the one who has entered His rest"?
The one who has believed God, specifically the Gospel (good news!).

So again, a different mindset in modern times than the men who wrote Scripture.

They put no distinction between faith and obedience, I can prove this 2 ways;

Hebrews 3:18-19, "And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Disobedience is 100% no distinction linked to unbelief.

Hebrews 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed"

Faith is 100% no distinction linked to obedience.

Why is this? In the Hebrew language the word "shawmah" means to hear and obey.

In English these are 2 SEPARATE ideas and words. Yet there is no difference between them to Yahweh and His people.

One can say they believed all they want if they did they would do, and THIS is what Hebrews 3&4 is talking about.

 

[RedTent]

This question, what to do about OT teachings, has torn the church apart for many years. Everyone is taking a stand, now. It began as soon as Christ was crucified, as it tells us in Acts. Paul is front and center of this, even in Acts he was accused of being against the Torah (first 5 books of scripture). We can read what he says about it, that he is not against the Torah. Yet, we read in Galatians and in Hebrew that he was against "the law of Moses". The law of Moses is in the Torah. Either Paul is telling a lie somewhere, or we are going to have to look elsewhere for what he meant by the law of Moses. I think Paul is scripture, that Paul was NOT telling a lie in Acts. I think we have to look deeper into Paul's meaning. I didn't find it in the bible, I looked at history to find out what "law of Moses" meant to people in that time. I don't see what else we can do. I am not about to accept Paul wasn't speaking through God, that he would lie.

The men who have studied the deep sea scrolls and archeology for history are the men that has brought this subject up for the church to look at closely. The history they uncovered has said that what Paul said in Acts about the torah is right. Many, here are so opposed to this idea that I have been called a demon for saying so, and lately a post told me I was not to be permitted to ever again say this in a post, that I must be barred. She said no one would listen, everyone knew nothing I said was from scripture.

We all need to look at this question in light of all scripture. In light of a new covenant in Christ, what Paul says about the law of Moses, in light that all scripture says God and Christ is and means to us. The only thing we have established is that we are not powerful enough to create our own salvation by anything we do, it is only God who can do that. Also, Christ made changes for us. From there, the church is split in two.

 

[LT]

So again, a different mindset in modern times than the men who wrote Scripture.

They put no distinction between faith and obedience, I can prove this 2 ways;

Hebrews 3:18-19, "And to whom did He vow that they would not enter into His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

Disobedience is 100% no distinction linked to unbelief.

Hebrews 4:2, "For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed"

Faith is 100% no distinction linked to obedience.

Why is this? In the Hebrew language the word "shawmah" means to hear and obey.

In English these are 2 SEPARATE ideas and words. Yet there is no difference between them to Yahweh and His people.

One can say they believed all they want if they did they would do, and THIS is what Hebrews 3&4 is talking about.

I totally agree with you. Faith always produces faithfulness.

If a man is dying from starvation, and he is given a plate of food, he has faith that the food will save him from starvation.

He does not repeat a phrase like 'this food can save me, this food can save me', but simply eats the food, showing his faith.

action shows the inner faith.

 

[Hizikyah]

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and ball who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"

the word Law is: 3551. nomos
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general.

 

[Hizikyah]

I totally agree with you. Faith always produces faithfulness.

If a man is dying from starvation, and he is given a plate of food, he has faith that the food will save him from starvation.

He does not repeat a phrase like 'this food can save me, this food can save me', but simply eats the food, showing his faith.

action shows the inner faith.

I like that analogy! Simple and vital to survival, I may use that one if its ok with you!

 

[Elin]

From God's mouth to Adam's ears

Genesis 1:29 And God said, See I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.
Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat.

Lots of poor teaching evidenced in some of these posts.
Some of you have some reckoning to do with the word of God, which is being handled very loosely.

Are all the herbs healthy, are not some poisonous?
You must reckon with that in your understanding of what God said.

No animal flesh before the Fall, for there was no death in the world, including of animals to eat, until after Adam rebelled.

No meat mentioned until after the flood - Why would God have to write it in a book as law when He could talk to Adam and Eve directly?

What are you saying?

How do you know what he said to Adam and Eve, other than your own conjecture, if it is not recorded in Scripture?

So what does the "everything that lives and moves, I give you for food" of Scripture show about "clean" and "unclean?"
Were not some of the things that lived and moved unhealthy?

One more time. . .it's not about health. . .it's about provision.

They got to decide what was beneficial and what was not.

So no, not written down but God said it - I think that is good enough.

What are you saying?

What is not written down that you know God said?

The word of God is being handled much too loosely.[/quote]

 

[Hizikyah]

I believe all of Yahweh's Laws are for our well being spiritually, physically, and mentally.

Proverbs 3:1-2,8, "My son, do not forget my Law, but take my instructions to heart; For length of days, and long life, and peace, they will add to you. 8 This will bring health to your body, and nourishment to your bones."

Exodus 15:25-26 Then Mosheh cried out to Yahweh, and Yahweh showed him a tree; and when he cast the wood into the waters, the waters were made sweet. There He gave them, through Mosheh, the Laws, judgments, and statutes, and there He proved; tested, them, And said: If you will adiligently listen to the voice of Yahweh your Father, and do what is right in His sight, and will give ear to His Laws, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians; for I am Yahweh Ropheka."

Leviticus 11:43 "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them."

"Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them"

In modern times we could say, dont eat that so you dont get a trichinosis infection or heart disease......same.

 

[Elin]

We agree None of God's laws are Moses' laws.

But I think what most people don't get is that
God's laws were His laws before Moses even existed.

However, mankind neither knew them, nor was commanded to obey them, until he promulgated them.

 

[Hizikyah]

However, mankind neither knew them, nor was commanded to obey them, until he promulgated them.

How did Abraham obey Yahweh's Laws if they didnt exist?

Genesis 26:5, "Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws."

 

[WomanLovesTX]

How did Abraham obey Yahweh's Laws if they didnt exist?

Genesis 26:5, "Because Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws."

I can't help but noticed here in Genesis 26:5, that "My Laws" is the very first time in the Hebrew that the word (Strong's H8451) "TORAH" is made mention. However, if you look up the Septuagint, the Greek word is G3545, which means nomimōs, are lawfully and derived from G3551, which means nomos, which is more vague and means just any kind of law. The "ANOMIA" Greek G458
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

What is the Bible definition of transgression and iniquity?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Iniquity is the opposite of righteousness. Iniquity is doing it wrong, while righteousness is doing it right and is holy.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

 

[Elin]

Scavenger animals and sea scavengers are nasty. Science agrees. Swine eats filth and that changes to flesh on their bones within 4 hours. Yuk. They are definitely not clean, and instructions not to eat them are for our benefit, as with all the other instructions. Just because we don't understand and don't want to obey,
we go to all lengths to make null and void the Torah.

Well then, according to your meaning that it was about health,
God said the same foods were healthy (Ge 9:3),
then unhealthy (Lev 11),
and then healthy again (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14; 1Tim 4:3-5, etc.)

I don't know if this is deliberately designed to confuse people, but you sure confuse me.

I suggest it is your confused understanding of God's clear word above that is confusing.

Just because we don't understand and don't want to obey,
we go to all lengths to make null and void the Torah

Methinks the pot is calling the kettle black.

Do you not do the same in placing yourself above the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days
(Heb 1:1-2), through the NT writers in Mk 7:19; Ro 14:4; 1Tim 4:3-5, etc.?

No need to call me names Elin. Is that loving?

The old cultural trump card. . .

Is that good fruit?

Do you see any difference between that and labeling the NT (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:14, 1Tim 4:3-5, etc.)
as "going to all lengths to make null and void the Torah"?

I don't have a bone to pick with you,

Nor I with you, I'm simply addressing your remarks.

nor was my original statement anything like you are making it out to be.

The record above speaks for itself.

 

[LT]

I can't help but noticed here in Genesis 26:5, that "My Laws" is the very first time in the Hebrew that the word (Strong's H8451) "TORAH" is made mention. However, if you look up the Septuagint, the Greek word is G3545, which means nomimōs, are lawfully and derived from G3551, which means nomos, which is more vague and means just any kind of law. The "ANOMIA" Greek G458
anomia
an-om-ee'-ah
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness: - iniquity, X transgress (-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

What is the Bible definition of transgression and iniquity?

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Iniquity is the opposite of righteousness. Iniquity is doing it wrong, while righteousness is doing it right and is holy.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Even the word TORAH doesn't actually mean 'laws' but actually means 'teachings'.

God's instructions of what is righteous and unrighteous have been made known since the beginning.

 

[chubbena]

Scavenger animals and sea scavengers are nasty. Science agrees. Swine eats filth and that changes to flesh on their bones within 4 hours. Yuk. They are definitely not clean, and instructions not to eat them are for our benefit, as with all the other instructions. Just because we don't understand and don't want to obey, we go to all lengths to make null and void the Torah.

Swine eats anything and generates fat to contain whatever the body could not recognize. The reason why they produce so much "bacon". People would rather listen to doctors and health experts than the good old testament.

 

[Elin]

The torah that is supposed to be written on peoples hearts is 613+ Laws, the oral law created by Jews/rabbis/pharisees has 1,000s of made up laws.

No, sir, not according to the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2), given through the NT writers.

It is the Ten Commandments, the basis of the Sinatic Covenant, which they broke, that is written on hearts in Christ's New Covenant law of love (Mt 22:37-40), which fulfills (performs) the Ten Commandments (Ro 13:10; Gal 5:6).

The Torah does not mean 10 Commandments.

The Torah is what is to be written on the hearts of those accepting Messiah.

It is simply the Instructions from Yahweh.

Redundant.

Already addressed above.

 

[Hizikyah]

Redundant.

Already addressed above.

Is that like the be all end all comment that trumps Scripture.

"redundant"

I can tell you this, Yahweh's Torah is written on my heart.

 

[danschance]

Swine eats anything and generates fat to contain whatever the body could not recognize. The reason why they produce so much "bacon". People would rather listen to doctors and health experts than the good old testament.

Acts 10:15 "Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean."
Mark 7:19 since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

 

[Hizikyah]

How easily you twist Scripture:

Acts 10:15 "Do not call something unclean if God has made it clean."

Not about food but about man:

Acts 10:28, "And he said to them; You yourselves are aware how it is not Lawful for a Yahdai to associate with one of another nation, or to enter his house; but Yahweh has shown me that I must not call any man common or unclean"

Mark 7:19

since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?” (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Added words "Thus he declared all foods clean"

Lets be honest here, this passage HAS NOTING TO DO WITH CLEAN OR UNCLEAN FOODS. It is about a pharisacial ritual of eating without running water ove ones hands using a silver pitcher also of pharisee law, and saying a made up pharisee prayer, THAT is the "hand washing" in question.

Mark 7:5, "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

Mark 7:13, "Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your tradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do."

Col 2:16

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Therefore, purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new batch, since you are unleavened. For truly Yahshua our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep the Feast, not with bold leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

1858. heortazo
heortazo: I keep a feast
Original Word: ???t???
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: heortazo
Phonetic Spelling: (heh-or-tad'-zo)
Short Definition: I keep a feast
Definition: I take part in a festival, keep a feast

Colossians 2:16-23, "16Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body [is] of the Christ; 18let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and [in] worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, 19and not holding the head, from which all the body — through the joints and bands gathering supply, and being knit together — may increase with the increase of God.20If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances? 21— thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle — 22which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men, 23which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh."

I think we have v16 down, I want to focus on 20-23, as to see context. Shaul (Paul) in nearly all his thoughts talks about a topic and then goes on to explain, he uses an advanced style of writing as his (worldly) education was beyond that of the other NT writers.

20If, then, ye did die with the Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?

So he is saying if your dead to the world why would you subject yourself to its (the worlds) ordinances. To think he is saying if your dead to the world then why would you subject yourself to Yahweh"s/Yahshua's Commandments would make no sense, but he explains it further.

21— thou mayest not touch, nor taste, nor handle

the pharisees had a law in which you could not eat meat and cheese togather, or even within 4 houhs of eachother. Now this is not in Yahweh's Law even, Yahweh's Law says dont boil a child in its mothers milk (3 times) (the local pagans had this as a religious practice Yahweh did not want His people to partake in these evil pagan practices) the pharisees using something called "midrashic interpretation" the pharisees looked at it and said well since it says this three times it must meant three different things. SO THEY MADE UP THEIR OWN LAW, that was completely disconnected from Scripture and enforced it as from Yahweh.

22which are all for destruction with the using, after the commands and teachings of men,

So here very clearly he states "the commandments of men", now if you read from 16-20 you see he stays on topic, and 20 says basically if your dead to the world why do what the world tells you, so we can see he is still on this topic from v16. In this verse 22, he says "which are all for destruction", how does Sabbath lead to destruction and it would also have to be a "commandment of men" if there is ant commandment that is the farthest thing possible from being a "commandment of men" it is the Sabbath, it was from creation and it shows the AUTHORITY of the Creator, the mark of the Creator. Also tying a "commandment of men" to destruction Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the commandments of men, you will die; but if, through the Spirit, you put to death; put an end to, the evildoing of mankind, you will live."

23which are, indeed, having a matter of wisdom in will-worship, and humble-mindedness, and neglecting of body — not in any honour, unto a satisfying of the flesh.

Pleasing of the pharisees by following the talmud. v22 for context = "after the commands and teachings of men"

you see the pharisees would have a problem if you did things according to Yahweh's instruction and not their ORAL LAW, this is shown in MATT 15, 23, mark 7:7-9, etc

If you kept the Sabbath NOT according to the Talmud but according to the Scriptures the Pharisees would have a problem.

Matt 12:10 & 12, "And, behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. Then they asked
Him, saying; Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath Days?--so that they might accuse Him."
"And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

The "Rabbis" also made their own holidays, Haunnaka and Rosh hashanna and more. when they left babylon they even changed the names of the moons (months), and rosh hashanna even changes the time of the new year, commandment and ordinances of men. the calendar Yahweh instuted is Yahweh's calendar, the one who created it created the heavens and the earth. Our current calendar is the gregorian calendar, which goes back to the bablonian calendar. Yahweh said the days end and begin at sunset, not the "Rabbis."

% made up "feast days" the Pharisees may had, brought you to trial, beat, imprisoned, or even killed you for not honoring. The Talmud tells a story of another "Rabbi" disagreeing and wanting to follow the Scriptures, and the head Pharisees makes then man, on threat of death appear in public on a Scriptual Feast Day in a way that the man cant honor Yahweh, thus commanding him to disobey Yahweh.

Rosh Hashanah (New Year)
Rosh Hashanah occurs on the first and second days of Tishri (the 7th moon or month, Yahweh's year starts in the 1st month). In Hebrew, Rosh Hashanah means, literally, "head of the year" or "first of the year." Rosh Hashanah is commonly known as the Jewish New Year.

How does the year start in the 7th month? According to the Scriptures and Yahweh;s calendar the year starts in the 1st month, Abib.

Chanukkah
On the 25th of Kislev are the days of Chanukkah, which are eight... these were appointed a Festival with Hallel [prayers of praise] and thanksgiving. -Shabbat 21b, Babylonian Talmud

Tu B'Shevat
There are four new years... the first of Shevat is the new year for trees according to the ruling of Beit Shammai; Beit Hillel, however, places it on the fifteenth of that month. -Mishnah Rosh Hashanah 1:1

Purim
Is one of the most joyous and fun holidays on the Jewish calendar. It commemorates a time when the Jewish people living in Persia were saved from extermination.

Tisha B'Av
Five misfortunes befell our fathers ... on the ninth of Av. ...On the ninth of Av it was decreed that our fathers should not enter the [Promised] Land, the Temple was destroyed the first and second time, Bethar was captured and the city [Jerusalem] was ploughed up. -Mishnah Ta'anit 4:6

Feasts the Yahweh says should be kept for all generations are promoted in the NT:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Therefore, purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new batch, since you are unleavened. For truly Yahshua our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep the Feast, not with bold leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

1858. heortazo
heortazo: I keep a feast
Original Word: ???t???
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: heortazo
Phonetic Spelling: (heh-or-tad'-zo)
Short Definition: I keep a feast
Definition: I take part in a festival, keep a feast

 

[Elin]

This question, what to do about OT teachings, has torn the church apart for many years. Everyone is taking a stand, now. It began as soon as Christ was crucified, as it tells us in Acts. Paul is front and center of this, even in Acts he was accused of being against the Torah (first 5 books of scripture).
We can read what he says about it, that he is not against the Torah.

What specific Scriptures do you have in mind?

Yet, we read in Galatians and in Hebrew that he was against "the law of Moses".

What specific Scriptures do you have in mind?

The law of Moses is in the Torah.

Yes, in the Torah, but not the Torah.

The NT writers were Jewish.

If they were talking about the "Torah," they would have used the word, rather than "the law,"
which is not the whole Torah.

Either
Paul is telling a lie somewhere, or
we are going to have to look elsewhere for what he meant by the law of Moses.

There is another option.

The law of Moses did not mean the Torah.

From there, the church is split in two.

Not over the meaning of Torah, but over the Judaizers' attempt to change the law of Christ
(Mt 22:37-39) from two commandments to 613.

The law of Christ fulfills the law; i.e., the Ten Commandments (Ro 3:10; Gal 5:6), which were the basis of the Sinaitic Covenant that Israel could not, and did not, keep, so God wrote them on hearts in the New Covenant.

 

[Karraster]

I suggest it is your confused understanding of God's clear word above that is confusing.




Nor I with you, I'm simply addressing your remarks.


The record above speaks for itself.

Wow! How much time did you spend planning this attack? You know that time could have been spent more productively, like reading your Bible. and seeing how much that owners manual is relevant still today.

 

[Karraster]

However, mankind neither knew them, nor was commanded to obey them, until he promulgated them.

talk about a legalist!!!lol