Woman should not teach or assume authority over men (applies to secular????)

[Calmador]

No, I think it is entirely a role within the leadership of the Church and Christian marriages. In all things, the Church is to reflect a willing submissiveness to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. In fact those role differences are there in Christian marriages, so that by them we can show the unsaved World what a geniune believer's relationship with the LORD is really like. Does that make GOD's intended role for women, less important than the role of men in the Church? NO, Both roles are equally important. The men by taking leadership and teaching roles in the Church, influence this generation; the role of women is to teach the younger women and the children; therefore through their teaching younger women how to teach their children, and grandchildren; WOMEN have influence over the next TWO generations. I would say that makes a woman's role, the most important, that is if the rest of you men want to get out that yard stick and measure.

What say we just leave it at the roles are equal?

Proof that it does not apply to the secular world:

Exodus 23:2-3 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] “You must not follow a crowd in wrongdoing. Do not testify in a lawsuit and go along with a crowd to pervert ⌊justice⌋.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Do not show favoritism to a poor person in his lawsuit.

Try to promote only men in your business, and GOD will not bless your business.

Acts 10:34 (NIV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism

Romans 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] There is no favoritism with God.

1 Peter 2:13-15 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

wwwquestions.org/woman-president.html.got

Judges 4:4 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was judging Israel at that time.

Thanks for your input. I wasn't saying a role was more important than another.

I think favoritism doesn't apply here though since its crystal clear that in certain places God does give men authority. I've wondered if it would be right to pass over that authority also in government and anything else really... and I think it is best. On the basis that men were designed to lead. And since God has given them authority over family and the church, extremely important leadership positions... I'd think government positions and leadership in general would be similar enough in importance for men to lead. In the family life... men are to be like Christ. Men are given that assignment for leading a family and family life as you can imagine or know deals with just about any kind of issues you can think of. Government and leadership in general involves those issues. I'd say we implement God's decision everywhere else.

Why do I now think this way... mostly it was Genesis. Adam in scripture named Eve... which shoes his authority. Adam is blamed for sin entering the world.... even though Eve was first to sin.... which shows Adam as responsible and... in charge of what happened.

That's why I have this mindset and am confident that men, who are to be like Christ, should lead the world.

As for Deborah, I read Judges 4 and didn't note her leading but being in service. Not to be little her position which was great but she seemed more like support instead of leading. I also noted that there was huge differences between the NIV version and the KJV which I would like to investigate. Especially in the first few verses... where NIV says she lead... and KJV says she judged. That was an eye opener for me. However, based on Genesis alone I'm strongly convinced.

Thanks again.

 

[Calmador]

If it is then sin for woman to take the a place of authority in the secular world, THEN YOU Are you saying GOD blesses SIN".

Here is Deborah taking the position of MILITARY COMMANDER of this entire Campaign:

Judges 4:6-10 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] She sent for Barak son of Abinoam from Kedesh in Naphtali and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men of Naphtali and Zebulun and lead the way to Mount Tabor.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his troops to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.'"
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go."
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] where he summoned Zebulun and Naphtali. Ten thousand men followed him, and Deborah also went with him.

Judges 4:14-16 (NIV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Then Deborah said to Barak, "Go! This is the day the LORD has given Sisera into your hands. Has not the LORD gone ahead of you?" So Barak went down Mount Tabor, followed by ten thousand men.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] At Barak's advance, the LORD routed Sisera and all his chariots and army by the sword, and Sisera abandoned his chariot and fled on foot.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But Barak pursued the chariots and army as far as Harosheth Haggoyim. All the troops of Sisera fell by the sword; not a man was left.

I really need to compare NIV and KJV in depth.... look at KJV

[h=3]Judges 4:6-10[/h]King James Version (KJV)



[SUP]6 [/SUP]And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said unto him, Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And I will draw unto thee to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thine hand.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.


Also... that woman that Sisera would fall too.... wasn't Deborah but Jael.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say, Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.


The other verses in KJV


[h=3]Judges 4:14-16[/h]King James Version (KJV)



[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the Lord hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the Lord gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the Lord discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.


I'd have to compare both. This is for your information... NIV and KJV don't paint the same picture... I'm personally convinced because of Genesis and Adam and Eve's relationship. (Adam naming Eve... and later in scripture, its through one man, Adam, came sin into the world... implying that Adam was responsible... even though Eve was first to sin. Yeah...

 

[kayem77]

I think no one can debate that men are the leaders in a family. The husband is the head of the wife. But men in general are not the head of women. The world is not Christian. I wouldn't advise anyone to defy the authority of a female cop, or a female judge, or a female president......just sayin'.

 

[tucksma]

I think no one can debate that men are the leaders in a family. The husband is the head of the wife. But men in general are not the head of women. The world is not Christian. I wouldn't advise anyone to defy the authority of a female cop, or a female judge, or a female president......just sayin'.

I agree, in church and in a family the bible is clear a day.
Everywhere else, as we see with Deborah, can be either male or female.

 

[VCO]

Thanks for your input. I wasn't saying a role was more important than another.

I think favoritism doesn't apply here though since its crystal clear that in certain places God does give men authority. I've wondered if it would be right to pass over that authority also in government and anything else really... and I think it is best. On the basis that men were designed to lead. And since God has given them authority over family and the church, extremely important leadership positions... I'd think government positions and leadership in general would be similar enough in importance for men to lead. In the family life... men are to be like Christ. Men are given that assignment for leading a family and family life as you can imagine or know deals with just about any kind of issues you can think of. Government and leadership in general involves those issues. I'd say we implement God's decision everywhere else.

Why do I now think this way... mostly it was Genesis. Adam in scripture named Eve... which shoes his authority. Adam is blamed for sin entering the world.... even though Eve was first to sin.... which shows Adam as responsible and... in charge of what happened.

That's why I have this mindset and am confident that men, who are to be like Christ, should lead the world.

As for Deborah, I read Judges 4 and didn't note her leading but being in service. Not to be little her position which was great but she seemed more like support instead of leading. I also noted that there was huge differences between the NIV version and the KJV which I would like to investigate. Especially in the first few verses... where NIV says she lead... and KJV says she judged. That was an eye opener for me. However, based on Genesis alone I'm strongly convinced.

Thanks again.

That is an interesting difference between the two?

Judges 4:4 (NIV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading[1] {Traditionally judging} Israel at that time.

The it is with the NOTE linked to the word leading. I wonder why they chose to Translate it that way? Could it be a reference to the fact that she DID lead Israel into the Battle, and on to Victory? Actually the only reason she did that, is the Commanding General turned into a total WIMP. If you don't count the will of GOD and the face that HE remained in TOTAL control, that is.

 

[Apostol2013]

I think no one can debate that men are the leaders in a family. The husband is the head of the wife. But men in general are not the head of women. The world is not Christian. I wouldn't advise anyone to defy the authority of a female cop, or a female judge, or a female president......just sayin'.

The world but we are Christians

 

[secularhermit]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

[SUP]11 [/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.



Hey, so while this applies to the Church... could it also apply in a secular settings, like work or college? I think we can... Consider our more fundamental beliefs, like not lying or stealing. Do we apply those beliefs, in a general way, in a secular setting? We do.

Also, I think the secular have some awareness...
Romans 2:14-15


[SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


Anyways, any supporting or opposing scripture would be great.

Greetings!

Will you please BACK UP those verses with the Old Testament teachings?

Women won´t agree on those teachings of "Paul", because I have heard ladies saying he was somewhat "machist".

 

[kayem77]

The world but we are Christians

Still, I am not married to the world, neither am I married to ALL Christian men. To say a woman cannot have any position of authority in the world is not only unbiblical(Paul was specifically talking about the church, I don't know why people ignore that) , but unrealistic too. That would imply that no woman can ever have a decent career or she would have to be unefficient in her work so that she doesn't get promoted, since doing that would mean that she would be in a position of authority higuer above others ,including men.

So single moms would be doomed to poverty and relying on others to support their families, and single women like me would be very,very limited in our options to thrive in a society. If I'm not careful enough I could ''accidentally'' usurp a man's job and, God forbid, be a Starbucks manager and a man would have to endure listening to me telling him how to make a cappuccino. The horror .

Check this out:
Women in the Workforce | Desiring God

 

[secularhermit]

I think no one can debate that men are the leaders in a family. The husband is the head of the wife. But men in general are not the head of women. The world is not Christian. I wouldn't advise anyone to defy the authority of a female cop, or a female judge, or a female president......just sayin'.

Here I saw two things I like:

1) The world we live in IS NOT Christian.
2) If it were "Christian" there was NOT NEED of cops, presidents, judges, etc.

Those GENDER roles are NEW for women, particularly those WHO LOST SIGHT of their "hommie" role and NOT HAVING good husbands, had to work for themselves and those abandoned children.

Women are teaching us too many things now. They are doing the "good" and the "bad" things we men once did, 50 or 60 years ago and, doing it, they have proven we both are SINNERS, we are -to some extend- guilty of the same mistakes and failures like cheating, abandonement of children and, in some cases, they have proven LESS resistance and multiporpose tasks in an office (for example) because female image is ABUSED for more things men never accepted bossy men: They are asked to work outside their offices, leaving their children under another´s care and, RARELY, their biological father.

If we men were the HEADs, families weren´t so divided in opinions and factions.

If we were the head, we were concerned on the needs of OUR women and OUR children, but EACH HEAD WALKS ALONE.

We are not the head of the woman, because we are not like those horses controled BY THE MOUTH...

We are not the head of our busines, because we have allowed society modelled OUR life the way SHE considers the best to sell US stuff, ideas, and the war propaganda SHE sells to destroy OUR families... Is SHE winning? (It looks like)

We men are no beating the system (not defying the authority of a female cop, a female judge, or a female president) because we gave up too much power on a sinful society which hates Christ and sucks our brain and lives up.

We are alike for the "good" and the "bad".

 

[kayem77]

Here I saw two things I like:

1) The world we live in IS NOT Christian.
2) If it were "Christian" there was NOT NEED of cops, presidents, judges, etc.

Those GENDER roles are NEW for women, particularly those WHO LOST SIGHT of their "hommie" role and NOT HAVING good husbands, had to work for themselves and those abandoned children.

Women are teaching us too many things now. They are doing the "good" and the "bad" things we men once did, 50 or 60 years ago and, doing it, they have proven we both are SINNERS, we are -to some extend- guilty of the same mistakes and failures like cheating, abandonement of children and, in some cases, they have proven LESS resistance and multiporpose tasks in an office (for example) because female image is ABUSED for more things men never accepted bossy men: They are asked to work outside their offices, leaving their children under another´s care and, RARELY, their biological father.

If we men were the HEADs, families weren´t so divided in opinions and factions.

If we were the head, we were concerned on the needs of OUR women and OUR children, but EACH HEAD WALKS ALONE.

We are not the head of the woman, because we are not like those horses controled BY THE MOUTH...

We are not the head of our busines, because we have allowed society modelled OUR life the way SHE considers the best to sell US stuff, ideas, and the war propaganda SHE sells to destroy OUR families... Is SHE winning? (It looks like)

We men are no beating the system (not defying the authority of a female cop, a female judge, or a female president) because we gave up too much power on a sinful society which hates Christ and sucks our brain and lives up.

We are alike for the "good" and the "bad".

I'm a little cofused as to what your point is. I have never implied that one sex is better than the other. Both genders are equally sinful in nature, and both genders are to blame and to praise. To say that society is the way it is because of women is a lie, and makes the other gender the victim. The truth is, no gender is the victim.

But when I see ideas like these, that men are granted headship over all women, in and outside of the church, it's hamrful to the Church, and in this case, women too. Just like I don't like men being disrespected or abused, I don't like it when it happens to women either.

Maybe in an ideal society men will be the succesful breadwinners, all women will have a family or husband that supports them and will be able to stay at home and raise their children with no need to work, and there would be no sin or anything whatsoever that would make them subject to abuse and injustice...either by their partners, or the legal system, or anyone. But, we don't live in an utopia. We live in a sinful world, where we are called to be light and truth bearers. We cannot force the world to be Christian, we can only share the gospel and give the world a glimpse of Christ through our lives.

Instead of worrying about what other things women can't do according to things that aren't in Scripture, we, and especially older women, should remind them what their priorities are. If married : their husband and children, and God. If not married, more opportunities to serve God. And that's it. Having those priorities in place, if they are godly, they will know what to do, and what not to do. We don't go around and tell them what these priorities should look like in their lives according to our own biased and limited wisdom, just like I don't go and tell men how exactly they should love their wives and be leaders in their families, because it looks different for everyone.

 

[Calmador]

I think no one can debate that men are the leaders in a family. The husband is the head of the wife. But men in general are not the head of women. The world is not Christian. I wouldn't advise anyone to defy the authority of a female cop, or a female judge, or a female president......just sayin'.

Just because people don't believe in God's word doesn't mean they won't go to hell for their sins. There's a difference between a persons perspective and actual reality. Either way, we're talking about ourselves as Christians. I'd never vote for a female President, or advocate a female cop or her in any authority over grown men.

I think Genesis has cleared it up for me. In the beginning when things were perfect... Adam named Eve... And later in scripture... "it is the through one man (Adam) that sin has entered the world and through one Christ (Also a man) it leaves"... scripture has put Adam as responsible and in charge of sin even though Eve was the first to sin.

 

[Calmador]

I'm a little cofused as to what your point is. I have never implied that one sex is better than the other. Both genders are equally sinful in nature, and both genders are to blame and to praise. To say that society is the way it is because of women is a lie, and makes the other gender the victim. The truth is, no gender is the victim.

But when I see ideas like these, that men are granted headship over all women, in and outside of the church, it's hamrful to the Church, and in this case, women too. Just like I don't like men being disrespected or abused, I don't like it when it happens to women either.

Maybe in an ideal society men will be the succesful breadwinners, all women will have a family or husband that supports them and will be able to stay at home and raise their children with no need to work, and there would be no sin or anything whatsoever that would make them subject to abuse and injustice...either by their partners, or the legal system, or anyone. But, we don't live in an utopia. We live in a sinful world, where we are called to be light and truth bearers. We cannot force the world to be Christian, we can only share the gospel and give the world a glimpse of Christ through our lives.

Instead of worrying about what other things women can't do according to things that aren't in Scripture, we, and especially older women, should remind them what their priorities are. If married : their husband and children, and God. If not married, more opportunities to serve God. And that's it. Having those priorities in place, if they are godly, they will know what to do, and what not to do. We don't go around and tell them what these priorities should look like in their lives according to our own biased and limited wisdom, just like I don't go and tell men how exactly they should love their wives and be leaders in their families, because it looks different for everyone.

Nobody is forcing anybody... you said, "We cannot force the world to be Christian" where did you get that from? I'm pretty sure we're all talking about we should do.

I mean am I going to stop going to church and practicing honesty because someone else deems it offensive? Am I going to say yes to murder, rape and homosexuality because someone else thinks its okay? No, we're talking about we're going to do and yes sure it will influence others but force no, nobody is advocating about taking a gun and telling people to convert to Christian.

As for the utopia.. where all men work and women stay at home... well for starters women can work but should focus on the home. Proverbs 31 shows that. And that situation is possible... its been happening forever... until recent times. And sin can be avoided with God's lead.

And we should worry about what women should or shouldn't do... This is a big issue. Granted we should look into ourselves first but that doesn't mean we should go about blindly and not correct and call out things. That's something we ought to do as-well.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

it means contradicting her husband in public and even in priavte
she can disagree, but should not argue about it and dominate.
fight, push, control.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

Women shouldn't do that to any man
man shouldnt do that to any woman
Men should not hit the woman or beat them or physically control them or shove them

 

[biscuit]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

[SUP]11 [/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.



Hey, so while this applies to the Church... could it also apply in a secular settings, like work or college? I think we can... Consider our more fundamental beliefs, like not lying or stealing. Do we apply those beliefs, in a general way, in a secular setting? We do.

Also, I think the secular have some awareness...
Romans 2:14-15


[SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


Anyways, any supporting or opposing scripture would be great.

Christians are to abide and accept God's word and not the secular world. The secular world has no rules or boundaries set in stone, and pretty much do what it wants regardless of the consequences. God's people are to obey the Scriptures and avoid the secular world. Make no mistake about it, many religious institutions are losing it faith in God and sliding into the secular world.
Please read : 1 John 2:15-16

 

[iamsoandso]

1 Timothy 2:11-15

[SUP]11 [/SUP]A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For Adam was formed first, then Eve. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.



Hey, so while this applies to the Church... could it also apply in a secular settings, like work or college? I think we can... Consider our more fundamental beliefs, like not lying or stealing. Do we apply those beliefs, in a general way, in a secular setting? We do.

Also, I think the secular have some awareness...
Romans 2:14-15


[SUP]14 [/SUP](Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. [SUP]15 [/SUP]They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)


Anyways, any supporting or opposing scripture would be great.

what about Hillary or Palin,,,,should the christian church bow to their authority?

 

[cjordan38]

You take it out of context.

From what I understand... in those times... the Israelites "did evil in the sight of the Lord." I think Deborah happened as a result of this chaos. While we can draw implications from Deborah... its written in clear day light what way of thought we should think and take those implications.

Starting from the beginning which I think is the most powerful evidence..

Genesis 3:20

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.


Ephesians 5:23


For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

1 Timothy 2:12


I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

This is written in clearly. This is why I think, especially Genesis, all men should seek leadership in all positions, both in Church and out of it.

My pastor is a woman and the assistant pastor is a man....She is called by God to be an evangelist, a prophetess, A Pastor, and a teacher......So should my assistant pastor take charge because he is a man? No I think not.....No one is better than anyone in Gods eyes...I know women can teach, preach, and evangelize in the Church...God used an animal to talk so why cant he use a woman?

 

[iamsoandso]

My pastor is a woman and the assistant pastor is a man....She is called by God to be an evangelist, a prophetess, A Pastor, and a teacher......So should my assistant pastor take charge because he is a man? No I think not.....No one is better than anyone in Gods eyes...I know women can teach, preach, and evangelize in the Church...God used an animal to talk so why cant he use a woman?

an animal to talk?,which animal?

 

[cjordan38]

an animal to talk?,which animal?

He used an ass...read the word and know it for yourself...And those scriptures that you present about the male over the household is for flesh not spirit.

 

[Rachel20]

Basically the point is that women should stay at home in the kitchen and make everyone sandwiches.