Who Were The Jusaizers? Are You One? Do You Know Anybody That Is?

[KittenofMelchisedek]

how do we know what sin is, or differentiate between clean and unclean, without first knowing the law?

nobody here is saying we are saved by the law, but we do think it continues to be important to know what the law of God says, and I would even say follow it's instructions but that is between you and the Lord.

It's funny how Christiany some deceptions sound. The word deception implies the lie is successful, at least some of the time. The enemy knows what lies we want to hear.

Anyway the point was that the definition of a judaizer, is someone who thinks the traditions of jewish elders should still be followed, who went around telling Christians they must be circumcised in order to be saved by entering into judaism. Our Lord tells us that the tradition of the elders' transgresses the law of God. So not only can we not logically be judaizers, but it's actually quite insulting to call an Christian such a thing.

 

[danschance]

how do we know what sin is, or differentiate between clean and unclean, without first knowing the law?

nobody here is saying we are saved by the law, but we do think it continues to be important to know what the law of God says, and I would even say follow it's instructions but that is between you and the Lord.

It's funny how Christiany some deceptions sound. The word deception implies the lie is successful, at least some of the time. The enemy knows what lies we want to hear.

Anyway the point was that the definition of a judaizer, is someone who thinks the traditions of jewish elders should still be followed, who went around telling Christians they must be circumcised in order to be saved by entering into judaism. Our Lord tells us that the tradition of the elders' transgresses the law of God. So not only can we not logically be judaizers, but it's actually quite insulting to call an Christian such a thing.

That is a misunderstanding of the judaizer on your part.
The apostle Paul used the term "judaize" in Galations 2:14 and it is often as:

ESV "force the Gentiles to live like Jews."
NIV "force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs"
NLT "make these Gentiles follow Jewish customs"
KJV ' compellest the Gentiles to live as Jews"


Here is a book on Amazon titled "Judaistic Christianity".
Judaistic Christianity: Fenton John Hort: 9780548080979: Amazon.com: Books

Here is a wikipedia article on Judaizers.
Judaizers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a sermon spoken on the radio on the topic of modern day Judaizers.
36 - 21st Century Judaizers - SermonAudio.com

All seminaries teach on Galatians and no doubt discuss judaizing or judaizers.

So a modern day Judaizer(s) teaches Gentiles must follow the Jewish law and or customs. It is not an offensive word but some do get offended by it. Maybe as one admin told me, we should call them the people of the shadows in reference to Col. 2:16-17. I have avoided calling people Judaizer as that might be pejorative or be viewed that way. Yet some on this site have stated they are Judaizers. Sorry you are offended but I have no clue why you are offended. Judaizer is a relevant term on a Christian site with biblical roots.

 

[Hizikyah]

That is a misunderstanding of the judaizer on your part.
The apostle Paul used the term "judaize" in Galations 2:14 and it is often as:

ESV "force the Gentiles to live like Jews."
NIV "force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs"
NLT "make these Gentiles follow Jewish customs"
KJV ' compellest the Gentiles to live as Jews"


Here is a book on Amazon titled "Judaistic Christianity".
Judaistic Christianity: Fenton John Hort: 9780548080979: Amazon.com: Books

Here is a wikipedia article on Judaizers.
Judaizers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is a sermon spoken on the radio on the topic of modern day Judaizers.
36 - 21st Century Judaizers - SermonAudio.com

All seminaries teach on Galatians and no doubt discuss judaizing or judaizers.

So a modern day Judaizer(s) teaches Gentiles must follow the Jewish law and or customs. It is not an offensive word but some do get offended by it. Maybe as one admin told me, we should call them the people of the shadows in reference to Col. 2:16-17. I have avoided calling people Judaizer as that might be pejorative or be viewed that way. Yet some on this site have stated they are Judaizers. Sorry you are offended but I have no clue why you are offended. Judaizer is a relevant term on a Christian site with biblical roots.

Please stop putting Yahweh's Law in the same class of teaching as the Pharisees.

Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what Yahweh says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing any evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying; Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what Yahweh says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which please Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YAHWEH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the Name of Yahweh, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 14:12, "In this manner are the saints purified--by keeping the Laws of Yahweh, in conformity with the faith in Yahshua Messiah."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

 

[Hizikyah]

Maybe as one admin told me, we should call them the people of the shadows in reference to Col. 2:16-17.

"which are a shadow of the things to come"

4 of the 7 Feast Days have not yet been fulfilled, they are not a shadow of things of old, but of thigs to come.

Colossians 2:13-23, " 13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross; 15 having stripped the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Messiah’s. 18 Let no one rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and ligaments, grows with God’s growth. 20 If you died with Messiah from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 “Don’t handle, nor taste, nor touch” 22 (all of which perish with use), according to the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 Which things indeed appear like wisdom in self-imposed worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but aren’t of any value against the indulgence of the flesh. "

Respectfully, you understand nothing about Colossians 2.

Please tell me my error in my view of it?

13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us; and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross;

15 having stripped the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day,

17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Messiah’s.

18 Let no one rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19 and not holding firmly to the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and ligaments, grows with God’s growth.

20 If you died with Messiah from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances,

So he is saying if your dead to the world why would you subject yourself to its (the worlds) ordinances. To think he is saying if your dead to the world then why would you subject yourself to Yahweh"s/Yahshua's Commandments would make no sense, but he explains it further.

21 “Don’t handle, nor taste, nor touch”

the pharisees had a law in which you could not eat meat and cheese togather, or even within 4 houhs of eachother. Now this is not in Yahweh's Law even, Yahweh's Law says dont boil a goat in its mothers milk (3 times) (the local pagans had this as a religious practice Yahweh did not want His people to partake in these evil pagan practices) the pharisees using something called "midrashic interpretation" the pharisees looked at it and said well since it says this three times it must meant three different things. SO THEY MADE UP THEIR OWN LAW, that was completely disconnected from Scripture and enforced it as from Yahweh.

22 (all of which perish with use), according to the precepts and doctrines of men?

So here very clearly he states "the commandments of men", now if you read from 16-20 you see he stays on topic, and 20 says basically if your dead to the world why do what the world tells you, so we can see he is still on this topic from v16. In this verse 22, he says "which are all for destruction", how does Sabbath lead to destruction and it would also have to be a "commandment of men" if there is ant commandment that is the farthest thing possible from being a "commandment of men" it is the Sabbath, it was from creation and it shows the AUTHORITY of the Creator, the mark of the Creator. Also tying a "commandment of men" to destruction Romans 8:13, "For if you live according to the commandments of men, you will die; but if, through the Spirit, you put to death; put an end to, the evildoing of mankind, you will live."

23 Which things indeed appear like wisdom in self-imposed worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but aren’t of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Pleasing of the pharisees by following the talmud. v22 for context = "after the commands and teachings of men"

you see the pharisees would have a problem if you did things according to Yahweh's instruction and not their ORAL LAW, this is shown in MATT 15, 23, mark 7:7-9, etc

If you kept the Sabbath NOT according to the Talmud but according to the Scriptures the Pharisees would have a problem.

Matt 12:10 & 12, "And, behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. Then they asked
Him, saying; Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath Days?--so that they might accuse Him."
"And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

The "Rabbis" also made their own holidays, such as Rosh hashanna and more. They also had their own day and way of "celebrating" Yahweh's Feast Days as opposed to what Yahweh said. When they left babylon they even changed the names of the moons (months), and rosh hashanna even changes the time of the new year, commandment and ordinances of men. the calendar Yahweh instuted is Yahweh's calendar, the one who created it created the heavens and the earth. Our current calendar is the gregorian calendar, which goes back to the bablonian calendar. Yahweh said the days end and begin at sunset, not the "Rabbis."

% made up "feast days" the Pharisees may had, brought you to trial, beat, imprisoned, or even killed you for not honoring. The Talmud tells a story of another "Rabbi" disagreeing and wanting to follow the Scriptures, and the head Pharisees makes then man, on threat of death appear in public on a Scriptual Feast Day in a way that the man cant honor Yahweh, thus commanding him to disobey Yahweh.

Rosh Hashanah (New Year)
Rosh Hashanah occurs on the first and second days of Tishri (the 7th moon or month, Yahweh's year starts in the 1st month). In Hebrew, Rosh Hashanah means, literally, "head of the year" or "first of the year." Rosh Hashanah is commonly known as the Jewish New Year.

How does the year start in the 7th month? According to the Scriptures and Yahweh;s calendar the year starts in the 1st month, Abib.

Chanukkah
On the 25th of Kislev are the days of Chanukkah, which are eight... these were appointed a Festival with Hallel [prayers of praise] and thanksgiving. -Shabbat 21b, Babylonian Talmud

Tu B'Shevat
There are four new years... the first of Shevat is the new year for trees according to the ruling of Beit Shammai; Beit Hillel, however, places it on the fifteenth of that month. -Mishnah Rosh Hashanah 1:1

Purim
Is one of the most joyous and fun holidays on the Jewish calendar. It commemorates a time when the Jewish people living in Persia were saved from extermination.

Tisha B'Av
Five misfortunes befell our fathers ... on the ninth of Av. ...On the ninth of Av it was decreed that our fathers should not enter the [Promised] Land, the Temple was destroyed the first and second time, Bethar was captured and the city [Jerusalem] was ploughed up. -Mishnah Ta'anit 4:6

1 Corinthians 15:50-54, "Now I say this brothers: that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Yahweh; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.Behold, I show you a secret truth: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed--In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (word #G4536). For the trumpet will sound (word #G4537), and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible will have put on incorruption, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For Yahshua Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the malak gadol, and with the trumpet (word #G4536) of Yahweh. And the dead in Messiah will be raised first, Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet Yahshua in the air; and so will we ever be with Yahshua."

4536 - salpigx
salpigx: a trumpet
Original Word: σάλπιγξ, ιγγος, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: salpigx
Phonetic Spelling: (sal'-pinx)
Short Definition: a trumpet
Definition: a trumpet, the sound of a trumpet
Word Origin - from salpizó
Definition - a trumpet

4537 - salpizó
salpizó: to sound a trumpet
Original Word: σαλπίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: salpizó
Phonetic Spelling: (sal-pid'-zo)
Short Definition: I sound a trumpet
Definition: I sound a trumpet.
Word Origin - of uncertain origin
Definition - to sound a trumpet

Genesis 1:14, "And Yahweh said: Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark the Feasts (word #H4150) , and for days (word #H3117) and years."

Leviticus 23:4, "These are the Feasts (word #H4150) of Yahweh, His Holy Convocations, which you shall proclaim in their seasons."

4150 - moed
moed: appointed time, place, or meeting
Original Word: מוֹעֵד
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: moed
Phonetic Spelling: (mo-ade')
Short Definition: meeting
Word Origin - from yaad
Definition - appointed time, place, or meeting

3117 - yom
yom: day
Original Word: יוֹם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: yom
Phonetic Spelling: (yome)
Short Definition: day

Feasts that Yahweh says should be kept for all generations are promoted in the NT:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8, "Therefore, purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new batch, since you are unleavened. For truly Yahshua our Passover was sacrificed for us. Therefore, let us keep the Feast (1858), not with bold leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

1858 - heortazo
heortazo: I keep a feast
Original Word: ἑορτάζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: heortazo
Phonetic Spelling: (heh-or-tad'-zo)
Short Definition: I keep a feast
Definition: I take part in a festival, keep a feast
keep the feast - see GREEK heorte
From heorte; to observe a festival -- keep the feast

1859 - heorté
heorté: a feast, a festival
Original Word: ἑορτή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: heorté
Phonetic Spelling: (heh-or-tay')
Short Definition: a festival, feast
Definition: a festival, feast, periodically recurring.
Word Origin - of uncertain derivation
Definition - a feast, a festival

Acts 18:21, "But bade them farewell, saying; I must by all means keep this Feast (word #G1859) that comes in Yerusalem; but I will return again to you, if Yahweh wills. And he sailed from Ephesus."

Acts 20:16, "For Shaul had decided to sail past Ephesus, so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he hurried, so it would be possible for him to celebrate the Day of Pentecost (word#H4005) at Yerusalem."

4005 - pentékosté
pentékosté: fiftieth, Pentecost, the second of the three great Jewish feasts
Original Word: πεντηκοστή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pentékosté
Phonetic Spelling: (pen-tay-kos-tay')
Short Definition: Pentecost
Definition: Pentecost, a feast of the Jews, the fiftieth day after Passover

Leviticus 23:2, "Speak to the children of Israyl, and say to them; Concerning the Feasts of Yahweh, which you shall proclaim to be Holy Convocations; these are My Feasts."

Most resources call the ,"Jewish" Feasts, but Yahweh calls them His Feasts, they are not for Jews only.

Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who asojourns with you."

Acts 27:9, "Since much time had passed, and the voyage was already dangerous because The Fast (word #G3521), had already gone by, Shaul warned them,"

3521 - nésteia
nésteia: fasting, a fast
Original Word: νηστεία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: nésteia
Phonetic Spelling: (nace-ti'-ah)
Short Definition: fasting, the day of atonement
Definition: fasting, the day of atonement

 

[danschance]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For since the (Mosaic) law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the [/FONT]same sacrifices that are continually offered every year[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], make perfect those who draw near. Heb 10:1[/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Yes the shadow is of things to come. I have never said otherwise as it is clearly so. Yet other verse state the law is over. Paul said Circumcision is over and if you do away with a single ceremonial law, surely they are all done away with it all must be done away with. That is why I have said many times, we as Christians follow the new law of Christ which is the moral laws of the Mosaic laws. I am sure you will disagree but I hope you can some day soon understand.[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

For since the (Mosaic) law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Heb 10:1

Yes the shadow is of things to come. I have never said otherwise as it is clearly so. Yet other verse state the law is over. Paul said Circumcision is over and if you do away with a single ceremonial law, surely they are all done away with it all must be done away with. That is why I have said many times, we as Christians follow the new law of Christ which is the moral laws of the Mosaic laws. I am sure you will disagree but I hope you can some day soon understand.

Hebrews talks about the transfer of the Priesthood, to a PERFECT priesthood and there being no use for animal sacrifice any longer. Not the establishment of any Law of Yahweh, but a transfer, to their TRUE purpose.

If you want to bring Hebrews into the mix let us dwell on this, the 7th day Sabbath is a prophetic shadow picture of the 1000yr reign of Messiah, I rejoice in this weekly celebration. and ONLY Yahweh can ordain a day on this level, I honor Yahweh and Yahweh willing I will do so forever, in the flesh and in the kingdom!

Hebrews 4:1-11, "Therefore, since a promise of entering His rest remains, let us fear so that none of you should come short of it. For this message was preached to us, as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not benefit them, because they did not share in the faith of those who obeyed-- However, we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: So I vowed in My wrath, They will not enter into My rest, although the works were finished from the foundation of the world, For He spoke in a certain place of the Seventh Day, in this way: And Yahweh rested the Seventh Day from all His works. And in this place again: If they will enter into My rest. Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Again, He designates a certain day, saying in David: ''Today,'' after so long a time, as it has been said: Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts. If Yahshua (ben Nun) had given them rest he would not have spoken afterward of another day. Therefore, there remains the keeping of the Sabbath (word G#4520) to the people of Yahweh, For he who has entered into His rest (word G#2663) has also ceased from his own works, as Yahweh did from His. Therefore, let us be zealous to enter into that rest (word G#2663), so that no one may fall after the same example of unbelief."

4520 - sabbatismos
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Short Definition: a Sabbath rest
Definition: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.
Word Origin - from a derivation of sabbaton
Definition - a sabbath rest

2663 - katapausis
katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Short Definition: resting, rest
Definition: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.
Word Origin - from katapauó
Definition - rest

Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness of Yahshua and for the word of Yahweh, and who had not worshiped the beast, nor his likeness, neither had received his mark in their foreheads nor upon their hands; and fthey lived and reigned with the Messiah a thousand years."

Revelation 20:6, "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; on such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of Yahweh and of the Messiah, and will reign with Him a thousand years."

 

[Elin]

Anyway the point was that the definition of a judaizer, is someone who thinks the traditions of jewish elders should still be followed, who went around
telling Christians they must be circumcised in order to be saved by entering into judaism. Our Lord tells us that the tradition of the elders' transgresses the law of God. So not only can we not logically be judaizers, but
it's actually quite insulting to call an Christian such a thing.

Actually, Paul used the word regarding Peter, the apostle (Gal 2:14), who was a pre-eminent Christian.

Paul's word refers only to professing Christians.

And he was not referring to circumcision, but to clean and unclean food.

 

[just-me]

Hizikyah could I interest you in reading the thread "expounding on the feasts of the Lord?" I think it will give spiritual insight to descriptions concerning the three feast God originally decreed through Moses for all time. It takes the physical and converts it to the spiritual as it was meant to be from the beginning. I would like your input if you care to read it. I'm only about half done with what I am led to post. It revolves mostly on the feast of tabernacles the envelopes the first month of Nisan.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

If you take verse 2:14 out of context, as I'm sure did the person that taught you this nonsense

Yes I'm talking to you, my dear sister Elin....lets look at the verse together
Galations 2:14 King James Bible
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

The "they" who Paul observes as walking "not uprightly" are the Judaizers, but only Youngs Literal Translation has the actual word "judaize". So "they" (who are false brethren according to the text), use the fear of the circumcision (ie the Jews, who were persecuting the early church), to spread false doctrine. Paul talks about watching it spread through those who he thought pillars of the church, and even to Barnabas, and then Paul goes off on a huge rant, and corrected his brethren.

It's such a good example of what we should do with churches who have false prophets leading them, but many fear the masses. Who wants to tell a 3000 person mega church they are wrong, they will just throw you out. In the next chapter Paul says look how a little leaven leavened the whole lump. Which after Jesus' words to the pharisees most have been a zinger to the apostles.

So anyway, Paul doesn't address the masses, he addresses Peter in front of the others. He is not calling Peter a judaizer, but asking how he got caught up in a deception basically.

In the next chapter, it specifically says, that if you accept the circumcision you are a debtor to the whole law....because circumcision was a RITUAL done to initiate a man into the old covenant.

The reason it references eating with gentiles, is because that was the SYMPTOM of the deception, that got Paul's attention.
We know that there is neither greek nor jew, slave nor free, but all are one in Christ, so when they wouldn't eat together, Paul knew there was a big problem. They were being superstitious.

nobody seems to notice this, but just as the ritual of circumcision bound you to the law, so does trusting in a superstition bind you to the elemental forces of the world- they are talking about sorcery! Sorcery doesn't have to be magically fantastic and sensational...it's a form of idolatry as you are turning toward an object or action and away from Christ and truth. This is the issue. They turned from Christ back into the elemental forces that had bound them before the death of Christ. How does this have anything to do with food. Please help me understand. If someone was fasting would you say they had turned to sorcery then? What about prayer? Some prayers really are sorcery, does that mean we shouldn't pray? Of course not, we are to pray without ceasing. How can it be that we cannot perform any "work" and yet we fast and pray, aren't those just human workings under this logic?

We know that we are not to be circumcised, and we know that we can't be defiled (or caused to lose our salvation) by what goes into our bodies, but rather the evil that comes from a deceitful heart.

Can someone tell me what the "moral" laws are? Even if you want to throw out the 'food laws', let's imagine for a second that they never existed...do you throw out the Sabbath? Do you follow it how Rome says to or how Yahweh says to or not at all?

I'm just trying to understand why I get lumped in with "Judaizers", because to do that is to essentially label us heretics....
a very serious accusation...so if the Holy Spirit moves you to pronounce judgement, you need to deliver from it as Paul did. Otherwise, it is a tool for one "christian" to mock another, nothing more. We need to take those kinds of tools out of the box and throw them away, as you would pluck out your eye if it caused you to sin, because that's what derision is. It's sin.

 

[Grandpa]

how do we know what sin is, or differentiate between clean and unclean, without first knowing the law?.

Galatians 3:23-25
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Before faith came we were under the law. To try to follow it in our own understanding and strength.

After we come to Christ we are no longer under this schoolmaster. We are given a new teacher.

nobody here is saying we are saved by the law, but we do think it continues to be important to know what the law of God says, and I would even say follow it's instructions but that is between you and the Lord.

I would say follow its instructions as well. The Law is Spiritual but we are carnal.

By saying "we" all still need the law and "we" need to follow its instructions what you mean is the carnal understanding of that law which requires the flesh and will to somehow follow it.

John 4:23-24

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It's funny how Christiany some deceptions sound. The word deception implies the lie is successful, at least some of the time. The enemy knows what lies we want to hear.

The enemy knows that humankind has very little faith. The enemy knows that humankind has a hard time recieving things they don't think they deserve.

Anyway the point was that the definition of a judaizer, is someone who thinks the traditions of jewish elders should still be followed, who went around telling Christians they must be circumcised in order to be saved by entering into judaism. Our Lord tells us that the tradition of the elders' transgresses the law of God. So not only can we not logically be judaizers, but it's actually quite insulting to call an Christian such a thing.

Acts 15:5 [SUP] [/SUP]But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

If you point Christians back to the law and tell them they must obey it you are inadvertantly telling them they must turn from Christ and the rest He has given and go back to their own works. That's basically what a judaizer does. They add works of the law to what Christ has done and does.

Certainly there must be some work we must do to deserve so much love, mercy and grace?

 

[Elin]

If you take verse 2:14 out of context, as I'm sure did the person that taught you this nonsense

Yes I'm talking to you, my dear sister Elin....lets look at the verse together
Galations 2:14 King James Bible
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Okay, sweet pea. . .don't turn into a sour pickle on me.

The "they" are vv. 11-13:

Peter, the apostle,
men from the church in Jerusalem,
other Jewish Christians, and
Barnabas.

All were Christians.

However, it was Peter, the apostle, whom Paul addressed in front of all of them for Judaizing (v. 14).

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

I'm not sour =P

Some men accompanied Peter who said they were Christian but they were secretly there with ill intent.

Paul noticed that after these guys (yes including Peter) showed up, Jewish believers wouldn't eat with the gentiles, because they were afraid. Whereas before these "brethren" came, everyone ate together.

Paul having previously spent 14 days with Peter, knew him as an apostle like himself, and staying in his home he would have seen how he (Peter) lived.

Paul says to Peter, " If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"

Peter was not trying to live as a Jew, Peter's sin here is not squashing the false doctrine before it could spread, like visiting someone when you have the flu. If Peter is living after the manner of the gentiles and not as Jews, then he is not one of the ones who was teaching that they should all act like Jews. It was more like calling out the leader instead of calling out the people, especially since he knew Peter personally, so he had the rapport to help Peter receive correction, and everyone else is corrected by hearing the following discourse.

It's a diplomacy thing. If you address a group of intimidating people, they might attack you, but they certainly aren't going to listen to what you say. If, however, you address the leader and the people look to the leader for his response, and he is amenable, then everyone is going to be more open to listening and not stoning you.

Anyway, he does mention eating together, but the entire passage is about this false doctrine of circumcision. I could see how a quick glance might leave you with the impression that the false teaching was to live as a Jew, but if you know the rest of scripture, you can see things in a read between the lines with a historical perspective kinda way. It is a difficult passage, and I'm not an authority, but I do a slow read and I look into anything I'm not sure of the language, I'll read integral verses in numerous versions, because I don't want to believe or propagate lies to the extent I can help it.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

Either way, they were troubling the brothers to keep the rituals and traditions in order to be saved.

The Law is the Word and the Word is Christ, and Christ told us to follow his law, upped the ante with teachings about the Spirit of the law of God, and told us to do his commandments.

 

[Elin]

I'm not sour =P

I know, and I don't want you to get that way.

Some men accompanied Peter who said they were Christian but they were secretly there with ill intent.

Paul noticed that after these guys (yes including Peter) showed up, Jewish believers wouldn't eat with the gentiles, because they were afraid. Whereas before these "brethren" came, everyone ate together.

Paul having previously spent 14 days with Peter, knew him as an apostle like himself, and staying in his home he would have seen how he (Peter) lived.

Paul says to Peter, " If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"

Peter was not trying to live as a Jew, Peter's sin here is not squashing the false doctrine before it could spread, like visiting someone when you have the flu. If Peter is living after the manner of the gentiles and not as Jews, then he is not one of the ones who was teaching that they should all act like Jews. It was more like calling out the leader instead of calling out the people, especially since he knew Peter personally, so he had the rapport to help Peter receive correction, and everyone else is corrected by hearing the following discourse.

It's a diplomacy thing. If you address a group of intimidating people, they might attack you, but they certainly aren't going to listen to what you say. If, however, you address the leader and the people look to the leader for his response, and he is amenable, then everyone is going to be more open to listening and not stoning you.

Anyway, he does mention eating together, but the entire passage is about this false doctrine of circumcision. I could see how a quick glance might leave you with the impression that the false teaching was to live as a Jew, but if you know the rest of scripture, you can see things in a read between the lines with a historical perspective kinda way. It is a difficult passage, and I'm not an authority, but I do a slow read and I look into anything I'm not sure of the language, I'll read integral verses in numerous versions, because
I don't want to believe or propagate lies to the extent I can help it.

I know you would never do that.

After Peter's vision in Acts regarding the Gentile Cornelius, Peter began eating with Gentiles, contrary to Jewish custom.

However, when the Christian circumcision group from the church in Jerusalem came to Antioch, Peter reverted back to separation from the Gentiles.

So Paul accuses Peter of hypocrisy in not "living as do the Jews" himself by eating with the Gentiles,
but then being intimidated by the circumcision group, withdrawing and separating himself again
from the Gentiles, and forcing Gentiles to follow Jewish customs.

"Living as do the Jews" is "Judaize" in the Greek.

 

[Hizikyah]

I know, and I don't want you to get that way.


I know you would never do that.

After Peter's vision in Acts regarding the Gentile Cornelius, Peter began eating with Gentiles, contrary to Jewish custom.

However, when the Christian circumcision group from the church in Jerusalem came to Antioch, Peter reverted back to separation from the Gentiles.

So Paul accuses Peter of hypocrisy in not "living as do the Jews" himself by eating with the Gentiles,
but then being intimidated by the circumcision group, withdrawing and separating himself again
from the Gentiles, and forcing Gentiles to follow Jewish customs.

"Living as do the Jews" is "Judaize" in the Greek.

Living as Jews according to pharisee law

or

living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law

?

 

[Elin]

Either way, they were troubling the brothers to keep the rituals and traditions in order to be saved.

The Law is the Word and the Word is Christ, and Christ told us to follow his law, upped the ante with teachings about the Spirit of the law of God, and told us to do his commandments.

Anyway, he does mention eating together, but the entire passage is about this false doctrine of circumcision.

The passage does mention eating together in Gal 2:11-12.

 

[Elin]

Living as Jews according to pharisee law

or

living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law

?

The meaning in Greek is "to live as do the Jews."

 

[Hizikyah]

Living as Jews according to pharisee law

or

living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law

?

The meaning in Greek is "to live as do the Jews."

generally put I would think "one would have noting to do with the rabble of the Jews."

SO which do you think this is talking about?

Living as Jews according to pharisee law

or

living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law

one? the other? both?

 

[Elin]

generally put I would think "one would have noting to do with the rabble of the Jews."

SO which do you think this is talking about?

Living as Jews according to pharisee law

or

living as Jews according to Yahweh's Law

one? the other? both?

I'll need some relevant examples of what you mean by the two in order to answer that question.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

It was my understanding that Judaize was kind of a made up word, like a colloquialism. Anyway who cares, so lets assume for the sake of argument that you are correct about the word etymology and about the inferences given by Paul in the context.

They were judaisers who wanted people to live as the jews...I'll give you that. Now please answer Hizikyah's question with something that isn't a non-answer. I know you can come up with something.

Did the Judaizers want the Christians to live as do the Jews, by following:

A.) Pharisaical Oral Law and Tradition as did Jews of the day

or

B.) The Law as given by the Creator

It's a valid question to understand since Jews were not living as they aught but had adopted babylonian customs that are still very much alive in mainstream Judaism and Christianity.