Does that mean that God's Word is dated? Or God's Word doesn't apply to us because we live in the (modern, liberal, wicked) society of the 21'st century?
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Does that mean that God's Word is dated? Or God's Word doesn't apply to us because we live in the (modern, liberal, wicked) society of the 21'st century?
T
The_highwayman
Guest
I forgot you Bible Believers don't like anything but English, so in that regard you might be right, but sense the original is in Greek and not English, we have to go with overseer for Bishop and shepherd for Pastor.We do agree on one thing, the Bible is clear that the overseer elders and deacons are to be males.
No runa long and go edit some more video tapes and lick your male ego in private.
T
The_highwayman
Guest
T
The_highwayman
Guest
I can testify to that. I've discovered in several commentaries where Joel talks about the Holy Spirit baptism on men & women most agree, even the cessationist commentators, that even the women of the early church were allowed to minister to men........ but..... when it comes to leadership of any kind, the majority will shout NO!! using the same misinterpreted passages used in this forum. That's bias.....plain & simple.
What most don't understand is that in the family unit, the man is the spiritual head, & will answer to God as a family priest. But you can't use scriptures relating to husband/wife issues as a broad covering for the church! The context is all wrong.
The church makes its bragging claims that we are no longer under the curse of sin, & rightly so. But do they realize that in Genesis before the first sin man & woman were equal? Look at this:
Genesis 1:26-28 (KJV) [SUP]26 [/SUP]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Both sexes of mankind were commanded to subdue the earth & keep authority over it. It wasn't till AFTER their sin that the woman was commanded to be subject to her husband.
So, if we're all free from the curse of sin, why can't men & women labor together in the kingdom of God, BOTH being proclaimed the Sons of God? If all are the Sons of God, then ALL are priests of the kingdom, yes?
I know some have used the excuse that God used women in the OT because He had to, 'cause a man wasn't spiritually fit to do it. I say unto you, have you taken a good look at the church lately?
Who am I to say a woman can't, when it was a woman who prophesied to me & warned me about taking my calling to preach seriously(a stranger, a lay person & she was right), a woman who first opened the pulpit of her church for me to preach in(when nobody else would), a woman, who was given visions of my pastoring my home church (my mother-in-law, imagine that? came true, too), a woman who couldn't read or write teach me more thing about spiritual truth than my male pastor (again, my mother-in-law)?
You guy can say aaaaalllllll you want against it......but it's not true. I witnessed too much first-hand by the Holy Spirit's power & authority that God uses women. If you say it's of the devil, then you're saying the devil led me into the pastorial ministry. Good luck with that.
I was wondering when someone would go back to the garden and prove this out, good stuff brother and well played.
C
CRC
Guest
It was explained to me that 1 Corinthians (the women should keep silent verse) was a letter of PROBLEMS in that church. And the problem was that women were sitting in the back, and the men up front. (That was the Jewish set-up) Women would stand up and inquire what was said, because they couldn't hear. Paul was saying "You are disturbing the service. Just ask the men when you get home what was said." That's very different from saying "You're not to hold authority in the church." That's just what was explained to me. Don't know if it's true or not, but context is key, historical and biblical - you can't pull a verse out of the letter for it to stand independently.
Paul says this earlier in the letter:
2 Tim 3
1But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: [SUP]2 [/SUP]For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [SUP]3 [/SUP]unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, [SUP]4 [/SUP]traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, [SUP]5 [/SUP]having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
Doesn't seem in context that Paul was talking about women having authority, in terms of itching ears.
It's a well known fact that Corinth & [Ephesus(Timothy's churches)] were cities of idolatry serving Artemis & Diana with women priests. This would mean there would be some really bold & educated Greek women in the church bringing their baggage with them. Historical context.
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If Paul even wrote it. There is some discussion about some of the letters attributed to Paul being written by his pupils, as certain letters contradict one another, are in another time period from each other, and have different grammatical styles. But, I'm no scholar.
Well Mystdancer, the truth of the matter is that you will have to answer for your actions at the Judgment Seat of Christ. Just like I will and every other Christian also.
Romans 14:10-12
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
When the Bible says something about a certain issue and you choose to reject its authority, well then you are in open rebellion against the word of God at that point.
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Again, you have not referenced the Greek nor delved into the exegetical discussion here in any way, shape or form. You are the one who does not believe the Bible. You believe the translational biases of KJV on down.
You haven't quoted a single scripture, you did not read my post on the Greek words, so you remain ignorant of what the Bible really says. Sad!
I believe the Bible, but I have taken the time to learn the original languages and study them. I don't just listen to what misogynists say and believe them. Perhaps you might try 2 Tim 3:15:
"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
That is what I have spent the last 8 years of my life dedicating myself to - studying the languages, the Bible, the hermeneutics, the culture, the geography and every single other part of the Bible.
All some men do is parrot what they have heard, in the hopes they can maintain their ridiculous dominance, when God is so against that, and Paul demonstrated so clearly that everyone in the body of Christ is needed if the gospel is ever going to preached to all the world so that Jesus will return.
If you would read all my posts, you will see that I say this very thing. I was addressing someone on here who pointedly judged me.
So which pulpit are you taking about in New Testament times?? Shows again how little you understand the culture. Churches met in homes, where they sang hymns and praise to God and people would share God's answers to prayer and someone would comment on the letters Paul had written, if they had access to them. (And no, women couldn't preach in the synagogues, but Christ came to set us free from that sort of legalism!)
Show me one place where the word PULPIT appears in the Bible! It doesn't because the first reference to a pulpit is found in a letter of Cyprian, bishop of Carthage in the mid 3rd century.
Your entire argument about preaching from a pulpit didn't start until over 200 years after the Bible was written.
Here is more info:
The History of the Pulpit
There are no pulpits in the Bible. Somehow, Jesus managed without a pulpit in his sermon on the mount or any of his other discourses. Even in the synagogues there is no evidence that Jesus, Paul or the rabbis would have used anything approaching our contemporary conception of a pulpit (Hoppe, 1). Of course the early church met primarily in homes. It was not until the third century AD that Christian congregations began to build and furnish structures intended to house the worship of a local congregation (White, 19).
The first reference to a pulpit is found in a letter of Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, in the mid 3rd century. Cyprian makes several references to ordination as it relates to the pulpitum of his church building (White, 69 n.18). In fact, this is one of the first references to any sort of formal development of the building of churches. Michael White, says,
The term seems to refer to a slightly raised dais or platform at one end of the assembly hall where the clergy sat. In one instance the honor of ordination is symbolized in ascending the pulpitum in the loftiness of the higher place and conspicuous before the whole people. The phrase “to come to the pulpitum” even becomes the technical term for the ordination of a reader in the church at Carthage (White Vol.2, 23).
While this indicates a special place for the clergy in the sanctuary, it may more accurately indicate what we might call the platform in contemporary church buildings. There was no indication here that this pulpit was set apart for the preaching of God’s Word.
Around the fourth century AD, reference begins to be made to the altar and to the ambo as furnishings in the church. Dargan describes Chrysostom, for example, variously sitting in the ambo or “in the preacher’s usual place,” standing on the steps of the altar as he preached his famous sermons (Dargan, Vol.1, 88). The ambo was a small desk used for the reading of lessons and often for the preaching of sermons (Fiddes, 29). Originally the ambo was placed front and center in the sanctuary. By the ninth century the pulpit appears in a lateral (sometimes elevated) position in the basilican cathedrals of the day (Fiddes, 30). This move represented the less prominent place of preaching in the congregation and the heightened emphasis upon liturgical aspects of worship (Dargan, 109).
Eventually, pulpits became extremely ornate in their construction. Carved stairways, intricate ornamentation, and grand canopies describe the pulpit as a piece of art in the pre-reformation european cathedral (Bangs, 31-43). John Throop describes preaching in one such pulpit at the Trinity Church in Stratford-on-Avon. “To reach the marble pulpit in that church,” he said, “I had to climb nearly 12 feet up a long flight of circular steps. I couldn’t tell whether the breathlessness that followed was from being up so high, or being in a pulpit from which, hundreds of years ago, holy and articulate preachers, perhaps even the Bard himself, preached GodÈs Word (Throop, 48).”
The reformation led not only to a renewed emphasis upon the sermon but to the repositioning of the pulpit in the center of the sanctuary (Fiddes, 42,43). This better symbolized the reformation emphasis upon the centrality of God’s Word. In contemporary protestant churches this tradition has been continued. The pulpit assumes a central, though less ostentatious position. Today pulpits tend to be built more for functionality. Aesthetics have not been abandoned entirely, however. It is possible today, to purchase pulpits made of granite, acrylic, steel, or even wood. There are pulpits to suit every taste and purpose. The proliferation of styles, substances, and price points, only serves to complicate the contemporary confusion about the place of the pulpit.
The Place of the Pulpit | preaching.org
Angela, your issue is that you simply do not believe the Bible. If you did believe it, then you would not have to go to the Greek to explain it away. 1 Timothy 2 and 3 are clear. No one has to go to the Greek to find out what the text really said. And there are no translational biases in the KJV, it is just your faulty understaning.
Ladies, you know what God has called you to, what the Lord has spoken to you, if you are following His lead and doing His will. All the judgements and snarky statements made here change nothing regarding God's call on your life. And, guess what, we don't have to prove our salvation, call or obedience to anyone, let alone strangers on the internet. I am walking away from this abusive thread, and I welcome you to do the same. The thing of it is, we will never change the mind of a man who insists that women are lesser creations in the eyes of God. So, all we do here is give them a pulpit to spread their bitter diatribes about the worth, value and 'place' for women.
You know and I know what God has said, how He uses women in many ways, from Sunday School teacher to preacher to evangelist to hospitality. Take confidence in Him and let the judgemental people stay the way they are, believing that they can tell God who He can and can't use and how He can and can't use them for the furtherance of His kingdom.
We can see in the Bible the powerful ways that God uses women. We know that Christ honored women, way more than many professing Christian men do today, and we know His plan and purpose for our own lives and ourselves.
Thank you to all the men here that were respectful. Ladies, God is good. May He bless you in the ministries He has called you to and equipped you for. Shalom ve Ahava.
You know and I know what God has said, how He uses women in many ways, from Sunday School teacher to preacher to evangelist to hospitality. Take confidence in Him and let the judgemental people stay the way they are, believing that they can tell God who He can and can't use and how He can and can't use them for the furtherance of His kingdom.
We can see in the Bible the powerful ways that God uses women. We know that Christ honored women, way more than many professing Christian men do today, and we know His plan and purpose for our own lives and ourselves.
Thank you to all the men here that were respectful. Ladies, God is good. May He bless you in the ministries He has called you to and equipped you for. Shalom ve Ahava.
B
biscuit
Guest
The reality is you are a feminist in the pulpit. The same group that is responsible for trying to destroy God's institution of marriage. You will have your day with the Lord about preaching His Word on one hand and on the other hand backing a group that hates, rejects God, and trying to tear down His institution of marriage. You can't play it both way of having your cake and eating it too.
Yeah, you shouldn't have to go to the Greek, because we know the Greek translates PERFECTLY and COMPLETELY into English...
You don't have to "study to show thyself approved" to use the error-less words of the King James.
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If you really believed the Bible, Chosen, you would do as I have done, and really study it. Learn the original languages so you can see what God really said, not King James.
I don't know why I bother to argue with a KJOnly person. Just like banging your head against a wall, over and over and over.....
Beyond me how anyone can believe the lies that the KJV was the only inspired version, when it was put together with such late manuscripts, which had been distorted by the Greek, Byzantium scribes to fit with their version of the Orthodox church truth.
One would think that someone who wanted to believe God would actually start comparing KJV with Greek and Hebrew, and find the errors and mistakes which occur in all translations, in all languages. Very sad!
So I guess I will say, I REALLY believe the Bible, as it was written, whereas you believe the lies of men. I pray you will be delivered from this deceit and the lies you have been taught. With God, all things are possible!
John 9:31
The first prayer that God hears is the prayer seeking forgiveness of our sins. The unsaved person is separated from God and God hears him not.
Believers who struggle with prayer need to do a self exam to confess their sin to God if they want fellowship with Him.
Thanks for asking.
For the cause of Christ
Roger