The Letter to the Romans...

[CWJ]

'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith.'
(Rom 1:16,17)

Hello there,

Redtent suggested that we move on into Romans, having quoted Elin's 'alternative' interpretation of Romans 1:16,17. Before we do I would just like to say something about the verses (quoted above) Please. Regarding the words '... to the Jew First'.

As we know, during the 40 years covered by the record in the Acts of the Apostles, the Jew was still 'first': Paul went straight to the synagogue in each place that he visited on His journeys. The Gentiles were grafted (following Acts 10) into the Olive Tree of Israel, but theirs was not an equal footing. Israel still had the place of priority, for to them pertained:-
1) the adoption,
2) the glory,
3) the covenants,
4) the giving of the law,
5) the service of God and
6) the promises,
7) the 'fathers of faith' were their's, and
8) to them 'as concerning the flesh, Christ came'.
(Rom 9:4,5)

This inequality did not change until the end of the Acts period, when Israel had still not repented, having rejected the kingdom and crucified their King: therefore, having been warned in Acts 13:40 of the blindness that would result, they were finally laid aside in unbelief (temporarily) at Acts 28, with the repetition yet again by Paul, of the quotation from Isaiah, in verses 26,27. Then 'the salvation of God' was sent to the Gentiles, for said Paul, ' ... They would hear it ....'

Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 2 Timothy & Titus, were written by Paul after this, and it is in Ephesians and Colossians particularly that the 'one New Man' is revealed (Eph.2:15) with it's total equality of Jew and Gentile within the One Body, revealed there in Ephesians chapter three.

Romans should be read with the knowledge that though foundational to what followed, this letter was still written during that period covered by the book of Acts, and will therefore reflect the conditions pertaining at that time.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Elin]

'For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ:
for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;
to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:
as it is written, The just shall live by faith.'
(Rom 1:16,17)

Hello there,

Redtent suggested that we move on into Romans, having quoted Elin's 'alternative' interpretation of Romans 1:16,17. Before we do I would just like to say something about the verses (quoted above) Please. Regarding the words '... to the Jew First'.

As we know, during the 40 years covered by the record in the Acts of the Apostles, the Jew was still 'first': Paul went straight to the synagogue in each place that he visited on His journeys. The Gentiles were grafted (following Acts 10) into the Olive Tree of Israel, but theirs was not an equal footing. Israel still had the place of priority, for to them pertained:-
1) the adoption,
2) the glory,
3) the covenants,
4) the giving of the law,
5) the service of God and
6) the promises,
7) the 'fathers of faith' were their's, and
8) to them 'as concerning the flesh, Christ came'.
(Rom 9:4,5)

This inequality did not change until the end of the Acts period, when Israel had still not repented, having rejected the kingdom and crucified their King: therefore, having been warned in Acts 13:40 of the blindness that would result, they were finally laid aside in unbelief (temporarily) at Acts 28, with the repetition yet again by Paul, of the quotation from Isaiah, in verses 26,27. Then 'the salvation of God' was sent to the Gentiles, for said Paul, ' ... They would hear it ....'

Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 2 Timothy & Titus, were written by Paul after this, and it is in Ephesians and Colossians particularly that the 'one New Man' is revealed (Eph.2:15) with it's total equality of Jew and Gentile within the One Body, revealed there in Ephesians chapter three.

Romans should be read with the knowledge that though foundational to what followed, this letter was still written during that period covered by the book of Acts, and will therefore reflect the conditions pertaining at that time.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Acts was written after Romans, where we find Paul stating that Israel has already stumbled over the "stumbling stone" (Ro 9:32), and the majority of them have been hardened (blinded) until the fullness of the Gentiles (Ro 11:25).

Paul' statement occurs before Acts was written, and neither Romans nor Acts shows that the Jews being "first" is concurrent with them.

This continual need/attempt to alter the NT is amazing.

 

[Hoffco]

Going back, this is the first where the thread went off track. It is a place our church has the most trouble, it is in the Jew/gentile question, and there shouldn't be a question. I should think it would be straight forward and simple. All missionaries to the gentiles taught that it wasn't the letter of the law, the physical doing of rituals that counted with God, it was the spiritual understanding. Scripture has always using physical happenings to explain the spiritual, and has always pointed to that the spiritual is the point of it all. That is the theme of the book of Isaiah. It doesn't mean scripture cancels any other scripture. We can't put the OT under "Judaism" heading and get rid of it, we are to know that we are given the Holy Spirit to lead us, not the rituals.

Can't we just forget this, say there is a controversy here, and get on with Romans 6? It is a wonderful chapter on how to live for Christ.[/QUOT

Good morning sisters. Good evening in the States, I hope I got both Elin's and Red tents' posts in post 538. Elin, you con't to make shallow half true statements, this is deadly to teaching the whole council of God's word. (no proof needed, take it or leave it. you love to confuse, my sister, with your "smarty pants" returns, please, just move on, I"m your Senior) BUT, for others, there was "death" Sin was punished immediately to Adam, the progressively death came to all, with one exception. AND, The Gospel reveals that the character of God is always righteous. to Red Tent, Jesus did "cancel" the ritual and ordinances of the O.T.'s. You.infact, contradicted yourself "we are lead by the Holy Spirit , not ritual". YES, we will move on in Rom. 6 very soon. These issues are very very important to our GOOD understanding of God's word,! Love to all, Hoffco, Doug

 

[RedTent]

Acts was written after Romans, where we find Paul stating that Israel has already stumbled over the "stumbling stone" (Ro 9:32), and the majority of them have been hardened (blinded) until the fullness of the Gentiles (Ro 11:25).

Paul' statement occurs before Acts was written, and neither Romans nor Acts shows that the Jews being "first" is concurrent with them.

This continual need/attempt to alter the NT is amazing.

Your belief is very strong, and there is nothing any scripture can say that will shake it. I think it is something we don't understand, aren't meant to understand, and your final decisions about all God is doing through the Jews is something you have and can not be changed. Perhaps God is still using this for His purposes.

Scripture says that the Jews are used for us, and their blindness is being used for our sakes. I don't say that, scripture does. It says that God will never forget His promises to them. We are not to be arrogant that we know Christ and many have been blinded. They are the root, we are grafted in.

I think if we followed the Lord, there wouldn't be all this fuss about the Jews. We would bless them, as we are asked to do, and let God handle it. When I meet one I bless them and, if they are open to it, witness to them with respect for their devotion to God the Father and the Messiah they think is still coming. That is all we are asked to do.

 

[Hoffco]

Acts was written after Romans, where we find Paul stating that Israel has already stumbled over the "stumbling stone" (Ro 9:32), and the majority of them have been hardened (blinded) until the fullness of the Gentiles (Ro 11:25).

Paul' statement occurs before Acts was written, and neither Romans nor Acts shows that the Jews being "first" is concurrent with them.

This continual need/attempt to alter the NT is amazing.

CWJ, The Gentiles were always a part of God's,Jesus' Church, from Adam. The picture of the olive tree is national ,Israel. and Gentiles were always "grafted" in. Romans includes all time. Rom 8:29-30 is the eternal Covenant of God's grace, sal. has always been by Grace thru faith, unto God works. Jesus set aside Israel in the Gospels, "your house is left desolate" But the carrying out of the judgement was in 70 ad.. We are very close to the "Fulness" of Israel, the resurrection and the rapture of the Church. 2tim. was written from Rome , just before Paul's death. I did not look up the dates . Love to all, Hoffco, Doug

 

[RedTent]

Now, could we go on with the last of Romans 6? It talks of what it means to be under grace, not law, being freed from being slaves to sin and replacing that with being slaves to righteousness. Interesting!

I think another way of saying it is that under law we would have to use the law for our salvation, so being under law would result in our death. Being under grace, we are under Christ for our salvation. So, for the love of Christ, for taking on Christ in our very beings, we work mightily for righteousness. We turn our backs with repentance on any sin.

 

[Hoffco]

I seek to bless, " in Jesus' name", always "in Jesus name"; Because I don't want the Muslims to think, that I am blessing them in Allah's name . I publicly preach that Allah is a false god. That "Jesus only" is a false god. The "Father only" is a false god. GOD is ,Father Son and the Holy Spirit. Love to all. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To RedTent, your post 546 is right on ! That is exactly what paul is saying in ch,s 1,2 and 5:19-ch8, God's sal. is a total life change, with justification as the side benefit of sins forgiven to give us the RIGHT to enter Heaven.. The great character change of the new birth into God's family does not get us the RIGHT to enter Heaven . The new birth gives us the fitness ,the character, to enjoy Heaven. Of course, Glorification makes us totally, perminately fit for Heaven. Love to al Hoffco,

 

[Elin]

Your belief is very strong, and there is nothing any scripture can say that will shake it. I think it is something we don't understand, aren't meant to understand, and your final decisions about
all God is doing through the Jews is something you have and can not be changed.
Perhaps God is still using this for His purposes.

Several things we know, and we don't have to sugar coat it.

God raised up Pharoah for his own purposes.
God has blinded the majority of the Jews, which means no faith to save them,
for they stumble over the "stumbling stone."
That God is using them for his own purposes is not necessarily a good outcome for them,
as it was not for Pharoah.

Scripture says that the Jews are used for us, and their blindness is being used for our sakes. I don't say that, scripture does. It says that God will never forget His promises to them. We are not to be arrogant that we know Christ and many have been blinded.
They are the root, we are grafted in.

There is no Jew or Gentile, all in Christ are the seed of Abraham.

I think if we followed the Lord, there wouldn't be all this fuss about the Jews.

On this we agree.

We would bless them, as we are asked to do,

Is there a Scripture instructing us to bless anyone?

and let God handle it. When I meet one I bless them and, if they are open to it, witness to them with respect for their devotion to God the Father and the Messiah they think is still coming. That is all we are asked to do.

 

[Elin]

Now, could we go on with the last of Romans 6? It talks of what it means to be under grace, not law, being freed from being slaves to sin and replacing that with being slaves to righteousness. Interesting!

I think another way of saying it is that under law we would have to use the law for our salvation, so being under law would result in our death. Being under grace, we are under Christ for our salvation. So, for the love of Christ, for taking on Christ in our very beings, we work mightily for righteousness. We turn our backs with repentance on any sin.

Yes, in Ro 6 we begin the practice of sanctification.

 

[Elin]

To RedTent, your post 546 is right on ! That is exactly what paul is saying in ch,s 1,2 and 5:19-ch8, God's sal. is a total life change, with justification as the side benefit of sins forgiven to give us the RIGHT to enter Heaven.. The great character change of the new birth into God's family does not get us the RIGHT to enter Heaven .

You are confused.

 

[weakness]

Alternative.

This is about justification (right standing before God, guiltless), a matter of faith only, not a matter of obedience.

This is not about sanctification, the practice of obedience.

Justication and santificatin are a matter of faith.John declares that faith without the obedience to it is unknowable.Santificatin is what I have alwas learned as being set apart,by gods grace, for Gods use not a matter of obedience. Hopefully obedience will follow,being the proff of faith, but not of human works but by the grace given us through the indwelling Spirit of God working in us who beleive,and shew our faith or beleif by the works of god in us

 

[weakness]

Elin,It is Shameful how you twist the obvious truth. Rom. one is talking of the POWER of GOD"S GRACE that gives spiritual life to a dead soul. All the sinner needs is to do, is to believe in God who has power to awaken the dead soul, and ask,in faith, for the new heart. Without the "Work of the law" by the Spirit in the sinners heart, there would never be a conversion, the new birth. It takes a lot of work to get a baby born. I had the joy of helping deliever two of my chilfren, my wife worked very hard, but the bady did not do a bit of work, but I bet, it was not very pleasent for them. The pastor's today are so ignorant about the new birth, they don't know how to instruct the sinner how to get born of God. It is not a legal transaction, it is a messy birth. But once God gives the newly created spirit to us, we feel it and cry out for forgiveness and cleansing from our guilt, and our guilt is washed away. The new birth is by God's POWER, but justification is by God's AUTHORITY to forgive the sins. Hoffco

I think a real sticking point and misundrstanding is that justification by human work and work done by the Spirit of god dwelling within us are two differant things, For in the flesh dwells no good thing,and it is only by baptism into his death and being born again ,not of corruptabl seed by the word od God give meaming to being born again ,by the Spirit, It is the spirits works that arein us that are holy and good. Work unless meaning the works of the old man are ment to be Christ working through us ,which indeed is holy and the only exceptable works that are not sin. For christ does not sin,whether in us or outside of us, Christ in us is the true Gosspel,making us his sons and daughters of the kingdom of God. stenghtening us to do the work of the minisrty, But if not baptized into his death through the opperation of faith, we are non of his and only perpetuate the hypocracy of false religion ,which Paul says many are being defiled.It is hard to truley die and come out of the world . ther is much suffering and humliliation, which is our cross as it was the lord,

 

[weakness]

And I know what grace is: both power to obey, and unmerited favor of God.


It is likewise trusting on the finished work of Jesus on the cross to save you from God's wrath
at the final judgment,
rather than trusting on your works of obedience to save you from God's wrath at the final judgment.


Remember, for your statement to have any merit, you must show what and how.

Works of odedience are the works of christs spirit within us ,not fleshy deeds to justify ourselves, although this does aboud today and early on , we must be born again.

 

[RedTent]

I don't understand all this talk of works, obedience, faith, sin, the old man, works won't save like it is all separate ideas. They are a unit. Some people grab hold of "works won't save". Others that "faith without works is dead". They think of it all as separate items of God, one more important than the other. It isn't. It is a balanced unit from our Lord. They are a natural result of being born again in Christ, and going to Christ to learn of Him.

They all are equal explanations of God's plan for us. We go to grace to understand what a holy majestic God we have. We go to works and obedience to express our faith. We turn from sin and put on Christ.

 

[RedTent]

Several things we know, and we don't have to sugar coat it.

God raised up Pharoah for his own purposes.
God has blinded the majority of the Jews, which means no faith to save them,
for they stumble over the "stumbling stone."
That God is using them for his own purposes is not necessarily a good outcome for them,
as it was not for Pharoah. ?

God is using them for you. Rom 11:15 For if their rejection brings reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

 

[Hoffco]

To Redtent, post 555 & 556 Again you are hitting home runs. It is so unbelievable how minds can twist the literal meaning of words and make it say some weird things. The Devil has don't such a good job of blinding the minds of Christians to believe the Gnostic false gospel of "faith" only", "positional" only. On one hand they say , "I don't sin," on the other hand they say, " we don't do any thing, only believe and God does all the works in us for us and we are passive, " But,I don't worry, God is in control, and I will do all the work that God has for me to do to get the Gospel to as many as I can and be the best example of a believer I can.. to the glory of God. thru the power God give me. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

God is using them for you. Rom 11:15 For if their rejection brings reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

He also used Pharoah.

It doesn't alter the fact of their unbelief, rejection of Christ and their condemnation.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Romans 11 shows that there is a future for Israel.

 

[Elin]

To Redtent, post 555 & 556 Again you are hitting home runs. It is so unbelievable how minds can twist the literal meaning of words and make it say some weird things. The Devil has don't such a good job of blinding the minds of Christians to believe the Gnostic false gospel of "faith" only", "positional" only. On one hand they say , "I don't sin," on the other hand they say, " we don't do any thing, only believe and God does all the works in us for us and we are passive, " But,I don't worry, God is in control, and I will do all the work that God has for me to do to get the Gospel to as many as I can and be the best example of a believer I can.. to the glory of God. thru the power God give me.

You are confused.