More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#41
Thanks.

However, Jn 6:39-40, 44, 54, 11:24; 1Co 15:52 locate the resurrection of the church in 1Th 4:16 with the trumpet call of God, which Biblically is the summons to judgment (Hos 58-9, 8:1; Am 2:1-2; Zep 1:15-17)
and in the last day, which Biblically is Judgment Day.

Scripture locates the resurrection of the church at the Final Judgment.

Ro 8:19-21 locates the revealing of the sons of God (resurrection) with the liberation of nature from decay (new earth), which occurs after the ravages of the tribulation.

So Scripture locates the resurrection of the church with the new earth, after the tribulation.

In the above, Scripture locates the resurrection after the ravages of the tribulation and
at the final judgment, and also locates the rapture with that resurrection in 1Th 4:16-17.

So Scripture locates the rapture with the resurrection at the end of time.

1Th 5:2-6 parallels Mt 24:42-44 and Lk 21:34-36, which gospel accounts both refer to Jesus' coming at the Judgment (Mt 24:30-31).
Therefore, 1Th 5:2-6 locates the rapture at the Judgment.
(Mt 24 refers to the Second coming at the Final Judgment at the end of time.)

So Scripture locates the rapture at the Final Judgment at the end of time.

And if Rev 20:4-5 is literal, then it locates the first resurrection (20:4) after the tribulation of chps 6-19, which precludes any resurrection before the tribulation.

So if Rev is literal, the first resurrection is after the tribulation.

So Scripture specifically locates the rapture with the resurrection of the church,
which is at the end of time, at the Final Judgment, and with the new earth.

The only things which follow the rapture are the Final Judgment and eternity.

The mystery of the church is that through the gospel, the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel (Eph 3:6), members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise of Jesus Christ (Ge 3:15).

And this mystery goes all the way back to Ge 12:3,
in the promise that all peoples (Gentiles) on earth would be blessed through Abraham.
That blessing is Jesus Christ, in whom all nations are blessed in his body, the church, his bride and wife (Rev 21:9).

There are likewise other references to the Gentiles being brought into the people of God, which is the church.

So these are the specifics which I find when I examine the Scriptures.
But where Jewish readers of the Old Testament looked for events to do with the day of the Lord, this had nothing to do with the rapture of the church (in the air, for a heavenly people of a revealed New Testament mystery), in distinction from the day of the Lord, a manifestation on earth of God's power and glory in connection with an earthly people.

The above Scriptures are based in certain and unequivocal NT teaching,
and they locate the rapture with the resurrection and Final Judgment at the end of time.

The curtain of time has come down. . .it's all over,
the NT specifically shows that the only things to follow the rapture are the Final Judgment and eternity.

The above Scriptures are the ones that must be dealt with regarding the time of the rapture.
 
Last edited:

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
63
#42
Please present those Scriptures, that I may examine them for any assumptions.


1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:1-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

1 Corinthians 15:35-58

John 10:1-6

Philippians 3:15-21; Philippians 4:5

Titus 2:12-13

Revelation 3:10; Revelation 4:1-2
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
63
#43
All the verses you gave talks about the"wrath" of God and nothing about "tribulation".

The time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) is about the wrath of God. God's wrath will be poured out upon the Earth through a series of 7 seal, 7 trumpet, and 7 vial Judgments. (See Rev. 5:1,5; Rev. 8:2,6; Rev. 17:1 & Rev. 21:9).


Would you agree that you are a pre-wrath rather than a pretrib.

No, I am not a pre-wrath believer.

I am a Pre-trib. Rapture believer.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#44
The time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) is about the wrath of God. God's wrath will be poured out upon the Earth through a series of 7 seal, 7 trumpet, and 7 vial Judgments. (See Rev. 5:1,5; Rev. 8:2,6; Rev. 17:1 & Rev. 21:9).





No, I am not a pre-wrath believer.

I am a Pre-trib. Rapture believer.
Not a pre-wrath, yet your argument rest on the "WRATH" of God.

If not pre-wrath

You should call this belief.
Pre- jacobs trouble
or Pre -Daniel 70th week.

Not Pre-trib.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#45
Yes they are. Matthew 24 is doctrinally aimed at Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble.

And 1 Thess. 4 is doctrinally aimed at Christians in the Church Age.

Also, if you read and study Matthew 24:3-31, the context of that passage of Scripture is clearly about Judgment.

But the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is clearly about salvation and deliverance. Even the very first chapter of 1 Thessalonians starts and begins with a statement of deliverance for the saints of God from the very wrath to come (See 1 Thess. 1:10).



So indeed Farouk, Matthew 24:3-31 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 are definitely two entirely different events. And thank you for pointing that out.
The time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) is about the wrath of God. God's wrath will be poured out upon the Earth through a series of 7 seal, 7 trumpet, and 7 vial Judgments. (See Rev. 5:1,5; Rev. 8:2,6; Rev. 17:1 & Rev. 21:9).





No, I am not a pre-wrath believer.

I am a Pre-trib. Rapture believer.
why did you left out, matthew 24:1-2? The whole context of matthew 24 start at vs 1.

So which event will happen first.
Matthew 24 or 1thes4?
And how do you relate matthew 24 to jacobs trouble of. Daniel 70th week.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#46
Brother ChosenbyHim, let me ask you questions.

2Thess 2v1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

In the verse above, what is the words below meaning:

1. coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?
a. first coming,
b. second coming,
c. not all above.
2. Our assembly to meet Him
a. Rapture
b. something else please explain.
3. For the day will not come
What is the day in this verse mean,
a. rapture
b. something else, please explain.
4.
unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,

Who is the men of lawlessness in this verse?
a. Antichrist
b. some one else, please explain.
 
Feb 21, 2014
5,672
18
0
#47
Brother ChosenbyHim, let me ask you questions.

2Thess 2v1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

In the verse above, what is the words below meaning:

1. coming of our Lord Jesus Christ?
a. first coming,
b. second coming,
c. not all above.
2. Our assembly to meet Him
a. Rapture
b. something else please explain.
3. For the day will not come
What is the day in this verse mean,
a. rapture
b. something else, please explain.
4.
unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,

Who is the men of lawlessness in this verse?
a. Antichrist
b. some one else, please explain.
Some people thought the Lord had already come.

The day of the Lord is linked with tribulation saints and events on earth.

The rapture - the church being caught up to be with the Lord is 'in the air' (1 Thess. 4), is not linked to the great tribulation (even though the tribulation principle is with us).

Blessings.
 

watcher2013

Senior Member
Aug 6, 2013
1,931
108
63
#48
Chosenbyhim and farouk,

do you know to who did Paul wrote the book of thessalonians?
And was paul a jew?
And the 3000 added to the church in the books of acts, were they Jewish?
the apostles were Jewish right?
 
Last edited:
Feb 21, 2014
5,672
18
0
#49
Chosebybennyhin and farouk,

do you know to who did Paul wrote the book of thessalonians?
And was paul a jew?
And the 3000 added to the church in the books of acts, were they Jewish?
Are the apostles Jews?
You got his name wrong.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#50
The time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week) is about the wrath of God. God's wrath will be poured out upon the Earth through a series of 7 seal, 7 trumpet, and 7 vial Judgments. (See Rev. 5:1,5; Rev. 8:2,6; Rev. 17:1 & Rev. 21:9).





No, I am not a pre-wrath believer.

I am a Pre-trib. Rapture believer.
UMMM So nothing John records in Revelation has anything at all to do with what God specifically told Israel about the curses they would receive for their sin? God never told Israel they would receive BOTH the plagues of Egypt and Sodom?
John never says the city is called Sodom and Egypt? God never said they would receive punishment seven times for their sins? Seven thunders,seven seals,seven bowls,and seven trumpets?

Revelation plagues Water into blood,frogs,pestilence,boils,hail,locust,and darkness. John references the plagues of Egypt in Revelation and God had warned these things would come about.

God told Moses to record his song as a witness against Israel. Guess what the song is that the saints are singing is The song of Moses. Yet to make anything else that the song is to mean be or represent when GOD HAS SPECIFICALLY TOLD US is to make GOD OUT TO BE A LIAR.

Deuteronomy 31

15 Then the Lord appeared at the tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the tent. 16 And the Lord said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

19 Now write down this song and teach it to the Israelites and have them sing it, so that it may be a witness for me against them.20 When I have brought them into the land flowing with milk and honey, the land I promised on oath to their ancestors, and when they eat their fill and thrive, they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.21 And when many disasters and calamities come on them, this song will testify against them, because it will not be forgotten by their descendants. I know what they are disposed to do, even before I bring them into the land I promised them on oath.22 So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites.

God told us it is SPECIFICALLY A WITNESS AGAINST ISRAEL,it never was a witness against the world.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
#51
Some people thought the Lord had already come.

The day of the Lord is linked with tribulation saints and events on earth.

The rapture - the church being caught up to be with the Lord is 'in the air' (1 Thess. 4), is not linked to the great tribulation (even though the tribulation principle is with us).

Blessings.
2Thess 2v1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

Brother Farouk,

What is the coming of the Lord mean in this verse?

Is the coming of the Lord not the day of the Lord ?

You said some people thought the lord had already come.

Mean you believe the coming of The Lord is the day of the Lord is the same, am I right?
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#52
Elin, there is no verse in the New Testament which teaches that the Body of Christ will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble. Not one.
You are so very wrong friend. Look at what John wrote to the church of Thyatira, see Rev 2:22:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

The phrase "Great Tribulation" appears just 3 times in the whole Bible. The other two places are in Mat 24 and Rev 7 which tells us a Great Multitude of Christians have been killed in the Great Tribulation.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#53
2Thess 2v1-4:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

Brother Farouk,

What is the coming of the Lord mean in this verse?

Is the coming of the Lord not the day of the Lord ?

You said some people thought the lord had already come.

Mean you believe the coming of The Lord is the day of the Lord is the same, am I right?
What then is the day of Christ?

The day of the Lord is reserved for Israel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#54
You are so very wrong friend. Look at what John wrote to the church of Thyatira, see Rev 2:22:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

The phrase "Great Tribulation" appears just 3 times in the whole Bible. The other two places are in Mat 24 and Rev 7 which tells us a Great Multitude of Christians have been killed in the Great Tribulation.
These are not Christians as you would have us to believe. These are tares. The wheat already gathered into the granary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#55
Brother Chosen,

You keep using the phrase "Jacob's Trouble" as synonymous with the "Great Tribulation." They are NOT the same events. The Great Tribulation = Temptation of Satan where he deceives the whole world (except the Elect) into believing that he (Satan) is the real Christ. Jacob's Trouble = the war where Israel is decimated (Ezek 38-39, Dan 11 etc). The events likely overlap but they are not the same things.

Christ defines the Great Tribulation and provides the starting and ending points in Mat 24 and Mark 13. I have shown you this before. The Great Tribulation is NOT, I repeat, NOT THE WRATH OF GOD or THE LAMB!!! The Great Tribulation is Satanic. See Rev 3:10:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The Great Tribulation = The Hour of Temptation


The Wrath of the Lamb happens AFTER the Great Tribulation. The Wrath of the Lamb is REVENGE against Satan for deceiving the World and a HUGE % of the Saints.

You need to understand the purpose of the Great Tribulation!!! It is NOT to test the unbelieving world as Satan has already deceived them. The purpose of allowing Satan to test the world is to test the faith of the Believer. This is why also Satan is bound 1,000 years then let loose again for a short time to tempt the world at the end of the Millennium.
 
Last edited:

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#56
These are not Christians as you would have us to believe. These are tares. The wheat already gathered into the granary.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Wrong Roger!! There are 7 churches in Rev 1-3. Each represents a type of church today. Only 2 of the 7 does Christ not rebuke. The other 5 churches have "issues."
 
Feb 17, 2010
3,620
27
0
#57
Oh why do no one use MARK 13:14 to 24for the ANSWER to all your arguments? MArk tells us EXACTLY why God SHORTENED the number of days of the GREAT TRIBULATION.... If He did not NO FLESH SHOULD BE SAVED, but for the ELECT's SAKE whom he have CHOSEN, He hath shotened the days. (not the day itself, the number of days) Or who knows God can do anything maybe he will shorten thse days but we will not know it. But keep it understandable... Lets stick to the NUMBER of days.

Anyway this is not to start a new argument but to settle the PRE and POST trib. God says this tribulation's days are shortened for the ELECT'S sake, the chosen ones sake... So it is WITHOUT a doubt that elect and chosen Godly children will be in the TRIBULATION where the AFFLICTION will be as it was NEVER know before... It will be the WORST TRIBULATION EVER...

Here is Mark 13 :14 to 24 lease read it and REST.

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
7,080
151
63
#58
A Great Multitude of Christians are killed during the Great Tribulation. This is an incontestable fact!!!

Rev 7:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now look where Satan makes war with Israel. A portion of Israel escapes so Satan then makes war with "Her offspring." Her offspring is throughout the world with a predominate percentage in the USA. The 10 Northern tribes left Babylon some 2,500 years ago, went over the Caucus Mountains and settled Europe then eventually the Americas.

Rev 13:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

If there was a Pre-Trib Rapture (AN EVENT WHICH IS NOT TAUGHT) then there would be ZERO Christians on earth the moment the Rapture occurred, right? So, where did the Great Multitude come from??? If you claim they are new Christians who came to Christ upon seeing the glorious Rapture, then why does Paul teach a "FALLING AWAY - Great Apostasy" just prior to the MAN OF SIN appearing? If this alleged GM of Christians just came to Christ having just seen the real Christ how can they then be deceived into thinking the Man of Sin is Christ when they saw the real Christ just a few short years earlier?? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Jesus himself teaches us in Mat 24:


[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Behold, I have told you before.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

So, the ELECT (Chosen from the foundation of the earth) are still on earth during the Great Tribulation or Hour of Temptation. The Elect are not deceived but the Non-Elect Saints are deceived. The Rapture doctrine teaches that Christ comes before the events Jesus is describing above. So again, if Jesus already came then why would anyone think He came back again before the False Christ??? Even the Rapture believers believe that Christ comes for the Rapture, then the AntiChrist comes, then the real Christ comes again, right??? So clearly if Christ came for a Pre-Trib Rapture, the whole new Christian world would know that AntiChrist comes next thus they would not be deceived!!!

Paul teaches us very clearly this in 2 Thes 2:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

To give such a warning there must be a deception involving people thinking the Christ comes before the Man of Sin. Hmm. I wonder, is there a teaching today, that is not clearly taught in the Bible, that has Christ coming before the Man of Sin????????
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#59
Oh why do no one use MARK 13:14 to 24for the ANSWER to all your arguments? MArk tells us EXACTLY why God SHORTENED the number of days of the GREAT TRIBULATION.... If He did not NO FLESH SHOULD BE SAVED, but for the ELECT's SAKE whom he have CHOSEN, He hath shotened the days. (not the day itself, the number of days) Or who knows God can do anything maybe he will shorten thse days but we will not know it. But keep it understandable... Lets stick to the NUMBER of days.

Anyway this is not to start a new argument but to settle the PRE and POST trib. God says this tribulation's days are shortened for the ELECT'S sake, the chosen ones sake... So it is WITHOUT a doubt that elect and chosen Godly children will be in the TRIBULATION where the AFFLICTION will be as it was NEVER know before... It will be the WORST TRIBULATION EVER...

Here is Mark 13 :14 to 24 lease read it and REST.

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Please identify the elect. Show me where any church is considered the elect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#60
Wrong Roger!! There are 7 churches in Rev 1-3. Each represents a type of church today. Only 2 of the 7 does Christ not rebuke. The other 5 churches have "issues."
The seven churches are not mentioned after chapter 3. You can make a better case for the branch which was graft in which is the church being broken off than the church going through the tribulation.

The issue at hand is Israel not the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger