The Letter to the Romans...
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It seems to me there is a fight going on, and as I am looking form each persons angle each are correct in what they are saying.
Do we all agree that no flesh can please God, outside of Christ's? Do we all agree Christ came to give us new life in the Spirit of God by the resurrection? And do we all agree to live out this new life in the Spirit of God to the best of each of our knowledge, willing to grow in God's amazing grace through Son to all?
Do we all agree that no flesh can please God, outside of Christ's? Do we all agree Christ came to give us new life in the Spirit of God by the resurrection? And do we all agree to live out this new life in the Spirit of God to the best of each of our knowledge, willing to grow in God's amazing grace through Son to all?
Thank you Elin for saying it this way, from your side of seeing things, Hoffco does not understand what you are trying to say, and you are not seeing what Hoffco is trying to say. Walk a mile in another shoe. and maybe our eyes can be opened to seeing further down the road as God sorts it all out.
For God has accepted you, me, Hoffco and all that have chosen to beleive has God not?
For God has accepted you, me, Hoffco and all that have chosen to beleive has God not?
We are humans who put on Christ, and we see darkly. It is difficult for the human mind to understand the mind of God. Grace is one of the attributes of our world that can get distorted. Grace tells of the Holiness, the power and the glory of our God. We are never to be so egotistical we think we can do what only God can do, that we can of ourselves cleanse us of our sin. We are told to sign off on our prayers with thanks to Him "For yours is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory".
But we have to guard ourselves from saying, as many do, that what we do to live with Christ directing us isn't important, for we have grace.
But we have to guard ourselves from saying, as many do, that what we do to live with Christ directing us isn't important, for we have grace.
H
Thank you Homward and RedTent for you good balanced words. Elin, PLEASE listen to what WE are saying to you.Try to see the totality of God's word, try to balance all the trues God teaches. you are sooo one sided , it is Heresy . What you teach, (an Amoral gospel) has destroyed the credibility of Christianity in this world, God is sending great persecution to the professed church for this one sided heresy that many teachers, and many like you, have taught for decades, now we are into the end time deception and the churches will, are suffer,ing. God is punishing us by the enemy and by dividing the churches with all their errors, thru out the world, America will not be spared. God is destroying Amer. from the inside. LOVE you. Love to all who will love the truth. Hoffco
H
I was delighted to read statements of faith, Presbyterian(Westminister) and the Southern Bap. of the 1940,s and 1960,s, which agreed with me on the truth that Sanctification starts in Regeneration with the new moral change of our heart, spirit. We must learn this and stop exulting Justification as the main teaching, it is only one side of God's great salvation and is subject to all the other teachings on salvation, and follows the moral transformation of the sinner in Reg.. Paul ,in Romans is answering the objections of outsiders who are condemning the false notions that Christianity is very immoral in its faith only, do as you please teaching philosophy. Christians were accused of being pagans. Eating babies, beating their wives, wife swapping, etc. So, Paul starts Romans on the note of holiness of Christians, with forgiveness as a sub point to holiness. both are products of God's powerful grace. His MAIN point is, God is righteous in salvation, producing holiness, law keeping citizens, good people, a credit to society. Today, false christians have given Christianity a bad name. LIKE, the world says, "I like your Christ, but I don't like you christians. God saves the ungodly, but in saving them, God makes them HOLY, then God justifies repenting, trusting persons. Our apologetics to the world fails, because christians are sooo ungodly. Love to all Hoffco
So much misunderstanding would be alleviated if we just move on to chapter 7, where we see the law of the flesh working against the law of the Spirit, this is happening in the person who has been justified, having understood and lived in and through ch. 6. So we see the practical working out of sanctification, it's not perfect, it's not automatic, but it is real.
H
To homwardbound , I am thinking you are leaning to a universal salvation for all mankind: Because you insist on all we need has been done by Jesus on the cross and "by His resurrection", and Jesus died for all mankind. I see that you do require faith; but you might believe in a second chance after death for Jesus to bring all mankind to Faith, God certainly has the power to do that , But the problem is, the "freewill" of mankind, Man's "free will" is enslavement to sin, and it can not be broken by man. Conversion is only possible by the will and power of God changing the nature of man. even in Hell, no person will believe in Jesus. So, yes/no, do you believe Jesus will save all mankind after death? Now, I will fess up to a belief of a second chance theory which I hold. I believe that God is just and righteous in all His dealings with mankind; Therefore, God will have to gave every person who died, without the Gospel knowledge, a chance to repent and believe on Jesus. If God doesn't, then I don't think God would be JUST. I do know that a second chance will not save one soul from the jaws of Hell; Because mankind is enslaved to sin, and only the power of God can brake that bondage. Nevertheless, God,being JUST, will give all ignorant people, a chance to believe on Jesus and be saved, but no sinner will. Love to all, Hoffco ps, PLease, don'y say, I think there is a fight going on. We are debating.
No matter what God does or does not do, Go9d is righteous, just as Jesus said it in Matt 19, that only Father is good. So I thank God for the invitation to partake in God's righteousness only and is as well as past tense received from Father thorough Son's death for me in my stead, your stead and all who will believe Father are made righteous in Father
Col 1:1-23
Col 1:1-23
Oh and Brother Doug, I am learning more and more especially after finalizing the cross, I am forgiven by Father through Son 100%. There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood, and there is no more sacrifice or shedding of blood, therefore there is no more forgiveness to be executed from Father to us the creation. Passed from death flesh to life Spirit, remembering this daily, it is all God and none of me.
K
This belief ("we are not under the Law") can be traced back to the development of the early "Church" (and its anti-Semitic roots) and was amplified by later gentiles such as Martin Luther, and the other "Protestant reformers." Of course, by the time of Luther, "the Church" already had no regard for Torah. The Protestant reformation initiated the process of defining a theology that separated itself from its Catholic origins. However, this was not a return to the faith of Israel as followed by Yeshua, Paul and the rest of the Jews in the pages of the "New Testament." (There are several articles in the YashaNet Library on these topics.)http://www.yashanet.com/studies/romstudy/rom2.htm
I would like to continue study of Romans, but do it honestly. Paul kept Torah, Sabbaths, Feasts, and he taught the same, else he was a hypocrite.
Paul's letters are not easy to understand, and I want to try. It would be easier if the OP's request had been followed, not to argue on this thread, rather post an alternative if you disagree and move on.
I would like to continue study of Romans, but do it honestly. Paul kept Torah, Sabbaths, Feasts, and he taught the same, else he was a hypocrite.
Paul's letters are not easy to understand, and I want to try. It would be easier if the OP's request had been followed, not to argue on this thread, rather post an alternative if you disagree and move on.
K
The Jewish view of "faith," including that of Paul, is established in ideas such as:
The concept ofobedience of faith, is one that we will see as our Romans study goes forward.http://www.yashanet.com/studies/romstudy/rom2.htm
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[*]Faith is active and includes the "works" of following Torah. The foundational statement of faith in Judaism is the "Shema," from Deuteronomy 6:4. The term "hear" (as in "Hear O Israel ...", means to hear and respond obediently. Faith and obedience are woven together. This is clearly reflected in the words of Yeshua, Paul and James.
[*]Walking in God’s Torah is a sign of established faith, as founded in: Exodus 16:4; Leviticus 18:3-4; Deuteronomy 28:9; Joshua 22:5; Jeremiah 44:23; Ezekiel 5:6-7; Daniel 9:10 and Micah 4:2. We are told in James 1:23-25 to look in the perfect law (Torah) of liberty to make sure we are living correctly before God.
[*]Judaism had an established yet evolving halakha (standard) for "walking in faith" for gentiles. The "New Testament" gives us a "snapshot" of what the current practice was, as seen in: Matthew 3:8; Acts 15:19-16:4; Ephesians 2:10; James 2:19-20 and John 14:15. - The Tenakh taught that the same Torah applied for gentiles following God who were living in the Land. (Exodus 12:49; Leviticus 19:33-34; 24:22; Numbers 9:14; 15:15-16, 29.) This teaching can be seen as continuing in both Acts 15:21, where it states that new gentile believers will continue Torah learning as they attend synagogue, and also in Ephesians 2:10-12, where Paul tells gentiles that before they came to faith they were not part of the commonwealth and covenant of Israel. This latter verse implies that these gentiles now DID have a relationship to this covenant, which is based on the Torah -- both knowing and doing it -- as Paul and James both attest to:
Romans 2:13 - For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
James 1:22 - But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
K
Freedom in the mind of Paul and other Jews of his time was founded in the events surrounding the giving of the Torah (Exodus 4:22-23; Exodus 7:16; Exodus 8:1). Although the Hebrews experienced a physical freedom when God led them out of Egypt, their true freedom came when they received the Torah. Ask anyone what Moses said to Pharaoh on multiple occassions, and they will probably recall him saying, "Let my people go." However, this is only half the message. As Scripture shows, what God told Moses to say was, "Let my people go, so they may serve me." They were then given the Torah to enable them to do just this.http://www.yashanet.com/studies/romstudy/rom2.htm
Why do people fail to see there is freedom in Torah? Do they not know that living by God's Laws are far more unconfined than man's law? To say there is no longer any law, that's just crazy. What kind of society would we have were all men free to do as was right in their own eyes?
Understand, Torah Is the law of liberty, because Yahovah brought us out of Egypt, out of bondage. You will never understand Romans if you cannot see this.
Why do people fail to see there is freedom in Torah? Do they not know that living by God's Laws are far more unconfined than man's law? To say there is no longer any law, that's just crazy. What kind of society would we have were all men free to do as was right in their own eyes?
Understand, Torah Is the law of liberty, because Yahovah brought us out of Egypt, out of bondage. You will never understand Romans if you cannot see this.
K
Peter wrote that there would be those who would twist Paul's words to mean something incorrect. What kind of people would do that? Peter said these are lawless men (2 Peter 3:17). So again, understanding Romans will be impossible to those who say we are not under God's Law. We live in God's world, we are His creations, we are subject to His laws.