More Scriptural proof of a Pre-trib. Rapture.
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Well first let me quote from the correct Bible:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in this passage, I believe is a reference to His Second Coming.
The phrase: "our gathering together unto him" I believe it refers to the Rapture of the Body of Christ. Which takes place before the Second Advent.
The phrase: "that day" in the context of the passage of 1 Thess. 2:1-4 is a reference to the Day of Christ.
The Day of Christ is not the Rapture. The Day of Christ is the time of Jacob's trouble and the consummation of it at Christ's Second Coming.
In Paul's day, there were false prophets and deceivers who were posing as the apostles and were writing letters to the believers at Thessolinca; and they were committing fraud by forgering signatures. In other words, they were signing their misleading letters with the names of the apostles.
So a lot of Christians in Thessolinca were starting to believe that they somehow missed the Rapture and they were already living in the Day of the Lord (7 year tribulation period).
That is why Paul wrote the following words in verse 2:
"that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The man of sin, the son of perdition; which is mentioned in verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2, is definitely the antichrist. No doubt.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in this passage, I believe is a reference to His Second Coming.
The phrase: "our gathering together unto him" I believe it refers to the Rapture of the Body of Christ. Which takes place before the Second Advent.
The phrase: "that day" in the context of the passage of 1 Thess. 2:1-4 is a reference to the Day of Christ.
The Day of Christ is not the Rapture. The Day of Christ is the time of Jacob's trouble and the consummation of it at Christ's Second Coming.
In Paul's day, there were false prophets and deceivers who were posing as the apostles and were writing letters to the believers at Thessolinca; and they were committing fraud by forgering signatures. In other words, they were signing their misleading letters with the names of the apostles.
So a lot of Christians in Thessolinca were starting to believe that they somehow missed the Rapture and they were already living in the Day of the Lord (7 year tribulation period).
That is why Paul wrote the following words in verse 2:
"that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
2 Thessalonians 2:3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The man of sin, the son of perdition; which is mentioned in verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2, is definitely the antichrist. No doubt.
I HIGLIGHTED THE MAIN ISSUE IN RED...
1. When shall all these things be: (destruction of Temple)
and...
2. sign of thy coming, and..
3. the end of the World.
YOU HAVE THE ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS (2 and 3)...BUT THE VERY CONTEXT WAS THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE:
WHAT SIGNS DID JESUS GAVE REGARDING THE MAIN QUESTION (Destruction of the Temple)
Matthew talks about the destruction of the temple:
Do you mean your rapture was before the destruction of the temple?
Can you be more specific (if it is so simple)...instead of pasting the whole chapter.
Ro 8:19-21 states that creation will be liberated from its bondage to decay
(that's at the new earth, which is necessarily after the ravages of a tribulation)
at the redemption of our bodies
(so that's at the new earth, after the ravages of a tribulation, at the resurrection).
The NT specifically locates the rapture with the resurrection at the new earth (liberation of creation).
time of new earth= time of resurrection (Ro 8:19-21) = time of rapture (1Th 4:16-17).
I have asked the following questions of several on this thread, and no one has given me an answer.
Would someone like to answer:
Why do we not find a future temporal earthly kingdom expounded by Peter, James, John and Paul
in their letters of teaching and instruction to the churches?
Did they forget to tell us about it?
Did they not know it?
If they did not know it, on what basis do we know it?
(that's at the new earth, which is necessarily after the ravages of a tribulation)
at the redemption of our bodies
(so that's at the new earth, after the ravages of a tribulation, at the resurrection).
The NT specifically locates the rapture with the resurrection at the new earth (liberation of creation).
time of new earth= time of resurrection (Ro 8:19-21) = time of rapture (1Th 4:16-17).
I have asked the following questions of several on this thread, and no one has given me an answer.
Would someone like to answer:
Why do we not find a future temporal earthly kingdom expounded by Peter, James, John and Paul
in their letters of teaching and instruction to the churches?
Did they forget to tell us about it?
Did they not know it?
If they did not know it, on what basis do we know it?
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P
10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. 11 For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, "I follow Paul," or "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Cephas," or "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. Me personally it doesn't mater Jesus pulls me out or I die for him either way its all good....
Plain, why is it that you still cannot understand the context in Matthew 24:21-24?
The context in that passage of Scripture is Israel. It is not the Church.
Furthermore, the Elect in that passage which are mentioned are the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of the children of Israel (Rev. 7:3-8).
The term "elect" does not always refer to born again Christian saints. You have to understand that plain. The word "Elect" can refer to any of the following:
- Israel (God's chosen people).
- The Lord Jesus Christ.
- Born again Christians in the Church Age.
- 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel.
- Angels
So the question is how does one determine from the word of God, who is being referred to by the term "elect?"
It is very simple: CONTEXT.
Let me give you a few examples of what I am talking about.
Let's take Isaiah 42:1-5 for our first example:
Isaiah 42:1-5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
42 Behold my servant, whom I uphold;
mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth;
I have put my spirit upon him:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]He shall not cry, nor lift up,
nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]A bruised reed shall he not break,
and the smoking flax shall he not quench:
he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
[SUP]4[/SUP]He shall not fail nor be discouraged,
till he have set judgment in the earth:
and the isles shall wait for his law.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Thus saith God the Lord,
he that created the heavens, and stretched them out;
he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it;
he that giveth breath unto the people upon it,
and spirit to them that walk therein:
[SUP]6[/SUP]I the Lord have called thee in righteousness,
and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee,
and give thee for a covenant of the people,
for a light of the Gentiles;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]to open the blind eyes,to bring out the prisoners from the prison,and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Now from the context of this passage, it should be rather clear that the elect that being referred to here is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Let us look at another example:
Colossians 3:9-17
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; [SUP]10 [/SUP]and have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: [SUP]11 [/SUP]where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; [SUP]13 [/SUP]forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
Now in this passage with its context; who is the elect of God?
It is born again Christians in the Body of Christ.
See how context defines words, terms and phrases that are given in the Holy Scriptures?
And for one final example. We'll look at a passage in Matthew 24:
Matthew 24:9-24
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [SUP]13 [/SUP]But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
[SUP]16 [/SUP]then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: [SUP]17 [/SUP]let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: [SUP]18 [/SUP]neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! [SUP]20 [/SUP]But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: [SUP]21 [/SUP]for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Now to see who the elect here; first of all we need to see what appears in the context of Matthew 24:9-24. Here are somethings we can make a note of:
- The Gospel of the Kingdom is mentioned, and not the Gospel of the grace of God.
- The abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet is mentioned.
- Those which are in Judaea (Jews) will have to flee to the mountains for safety immediately after they see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy temple of God.
- Jews are commanded to pray that their flight be not in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day.
Matthew 24 is addressed to Israel. We see that this is the case from studying the context of Matthew 24.
Again, Jews who are watchful and observant will recognize the abomination of desolation for what it is when they see it appear in the holy temple of God, and they will flee to the mountains as a result.
Therefore; the Elect mentioned in Matthew 24 are the 144,000 Jews, including the remnant mentioned in Revelation 12:17. Basically the elect are the Jews (Israel).
One thing I notice that you do a lot Plain, is that you continue to get Israel and the Church mixed up. That is why you are still in error and confused on the subject of the Rapture. Get the distinction that is made between Israel and the Church.
If you continue in refusing to rightly divide the word of truth, then you will only continue in error.
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Placing the time of the Rapture after the time of Jacob's trouble would be to force the bod of Christ through the Body of Christ through Daniel's 70th week.
And Daniel's 70th week is not for the Church, it is for Israel - Daniel's people (Dan. 9:20).
Therefore, those Scriptures do not at all place the rapture at the end of time.
Paul does reference the Millennial Kingdom in that he speaks to the born again Christians in 2 Timothy 2 that if we (Chrisitans) suffer, we also shall reign (with Christ in His Kingdom).
Also, the apostle John does reference the Kingdom in Revelation 20; where we are told that the saints which overcame in the tribulation shall reign with Christ for a thousand years.
The Millennial Kingdom is referenced many of times in the Old Testament as well. The very fact that there are still unfulfilled promises of the Jewish covenants and of the Jewish prophets teach that they must be fulfilled within a coming Messianic Kingdom.
Also, the fact that there are numerous prophecies in the Old Testament about Christ's Second Coming as Messiah who will reign on David's throne, and rule over a peaceful Kingdom. There is plenty of material on the Messianic Kingdom in the Old Testament.
Read Psalm 2, Psalm 72, Psalm 110, Zechariah 14, Isaiah 9:7; and for the NT ref: see Acts 2:30-36.
You did not address the Scriptures themselves which were presented.
You simply assert they do not mean what they state.
The only conclusion which can be drawn in consistency with your statement is that
you cannot see that the NT specifically locates the new earth and resurrection
at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21) and locates the rapture with the resurrection
at the end of time.
Nor did you address that nowhere do we find Peter, James, John or Paul expounding
on or explaining a future temporal earthly kingdom in their letters of instruction and
teaching to the churches.
Paul specifically teaches a rapture with the resurrection
at the second coming of Christ (1Th 4:16-17),
Peter specifically teaches a new heavens and new earth at the end of time
(2Pe 3:10-13),
Paul specifically teaches our reigning with Christ now (Eph 1:20 and 2:6),
Paul specificially teaches the church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11),
so there can be no other temporal age to come.
But nowhere do the letters of Peter, James, John or Paul teach a future temporal earthly kingdom.
The only conclusion I can draw that is consistent with your statement is that
you cannot see the plain teaching of the NT,
preferring instead your uncertain interpretations of prophetic riddles.
And that problem is above my pay grade.
You simply assert they do not mean what they state.
The only conclusion which can be drawn in consistency with your statement is that
you cannot see that the NT specifically locates the new earth and resurrection
at the end of time (Ro 8:19-21) and locates the rapture with the resurrection
at the end of time.
Nor did you address that nowhere do we find Peter, James, John or Paul expounding
on or explaining a future temporal earthly kingdom in their letters of instruction and
teaching to the churches.
Paul specifically teaches a rapture with the resurrection
at the second coming of Christ (1Th 4:16-17),
Peter specifically teaches a new heavens and new earth at the end of time
(2Pe 3:10-13),
Paul specifically teaches our reigning with Christ now (Eph 1:20 and 2:6),
Paul specificially teaches the church is the fulfillment of the ages (1Co 10:11),
so there can be no other temporal age to come.
But nowhere do the letters of Peter, James, John or Paul teach a future temporal earthly kingdom.
The only conclusion I can draw that is consistent with your statement is that
you cannot see the plain teaching of the NT,
preferring instead your uncertain interpretations of prophetic riddles.
And that problem is above my pay grade.
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2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4 [/SUP]who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
OK brother, let me review your response.
1.
The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in this passage, I believe is a reference to His Second Coming.
2.
The phrase: "our gathering together unto him" I believe it refers to the Rapture of theBody of Christ. Which takes place before the Second Advent.
From 1 and 2 my conclusion is you believe this verse talking about second coming and rapture. I am I correct?
Than you said quote:
The man of sin, the son of perdition; which is mentioned in verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2, is definitely the antichrist. No doubt.
That mean you believe No 1 and 2 will not happen before antichrist reveal I'm I correct?
Pre-Tribbers really amaze me. We are warned repeatedly NOT TO BE DECEIVED by the False Christ(s). We are warned NOT TO BE DECEIVED concerning the timing of the Lord's return relative to the appearance of the Man of Sin (AKA AntiChrist). We are told specifically that Jesus returns AFTER the "Tribulation of those days." We have no teaching that places ANY return of the Lord before this nor do we have any teaching that says the Lord returns twice or that He takes any living person to heaven.
There is only one return of the Lord taught. Yet, the Pre-Tribbers split this return into two by choosing passages that don't contain the timing into a Pre-Trib Rapture and assigning those that do have the timing into the Second Coming. It is really fascinating how such liberty can be taken by so many believers in an attempt to prove things not taught.
There is only one return of the Lord taught. Yet, the Pre-Tribbers split this return into two by choosing passages that don't contain the timing into a Pre-Trib Rapture and assigning those that do have the timing into the Second Coming. It is really fascinating how such liberty can be taken by so many believers in an attempt to prove things not taught.
You do know that Israel is still looking for the first advent of their Messiah, right? They are looking at His second coming as His first.
Does Jesus need to come down and alight on the earth to collect His bride the church? Can Jesus collect them from the clouds?
The great and wonderful grace of God demands that the church not partake in the terrible wrath of God during the great tribulation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Does Jesus need to come down and alight on the earth to collect His bride the church? Can Jesus collect them from the clouds?
The great and wonderful grace of God demands that the church not partake in the terrible wrath of God during the great tribulation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The problem is rejection of the apostles as the only authority for the revelation spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2), so that anything not taught by them is simply the notions of men, but so agreeable to their own fancies that it matters not these notions have no basis in apostolic teaching.
They have cut themselves loose from the only moorings to truth given by the Holy Spirit.
They have cut themselves loose from the only moorings to truth given by the Holy Spirit.
In the bible, some time, if God punish a nation, the elect suffer from the wrath, It not always. When the lord stop the rain in Israel, the wicked and the good suffer. When God curse Egyptian with 10 curses Israel suffer some of the curses to.
Some preacher on the radio said God curse America economically, because America doesn't want God anymore. Christian and non Christian in united state suffer, a lot of foreclosure and people lost his house.
But the last and final wrath, is exception. The lord will take us before the last wrath just like Israel, When the Lord kill all first born Egyptian The Lord instruct Israel to pain the door with the blood of the lamb, than when the angel see the blood of the lamb, he know that this is exception.
About tribulation or persecution, we always suffer. Look at what happen in Muslim country, Communist country like North Korea, or China. Stephen suffer persecution and the Lord not protect his physical body.
It is scary, and honestly I am scare to. But we not suppose rewrite the bible because we scare to face it.
All we need to do is prepare, ask the Lord extra strength to face it. In His time He will give us what we need to face it. And the Lord know if we not able to carry on, He will hide us and deliver us from persecution.
Jesus himself said the world will hate you because you not come from the world. Mean persecution is guaranty.
Some preacher on the radio said God curse America economically, because America doesn't want God anymore. Christian and non Christian in united state suffer, a lot of foreclosure and people lost his house.
But the last and final wrath, is exception. The lord will take us before the last wrath just like Israel, When the Lord kill all first born Egyptian The Lord instruct Israel to pain the door with the blood of the lamb, than when the angel see the blood of the lamb, he know that this is exception.
About tribulation or persecution, we always suffer. Look at what happen in Muslim country, Communist country like North Korea, or China. Stephen suffer persecution and the Lord not protect his physical body.
It is scary, and honestly I am scare to. But we not suppose rewrite the bible because we scare to face it.
All we need to do is prepare, ask the Lord extra strength to face it. In His time He will give us what we need to face it. And the Lord know if we not able to carry on, He will hide us and deliver us from persecution.
Jesus himself said the world will hate you because you not come from the world. Mean persecution is guaranty.
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The early Church experienced the following:
1. Peter - crucified upside down
2. Andrew (brother of simon Peter)- A later tradition describes him as being crucified in a spread-eagled position
3. James (son of Zebedee) - Beheaded
4. Philip - martyred
5. Stephen - Stoned to death
6. Bartholomew- Skinned to death/Beheaded
7. Thomas - Speared to death
8 Simon (the zealot) Crucified or hacked to death...
God did allowed them to go all through that....
THE WHOLE 70 WEEKS OF DANIEL DEALS WITH ISRAEL NOT JUST THE 70TH.
I think Elin Point was Resurrection...and Daniel 70th have no relation to Resurrection:
Your Problem
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years
All those who where beheaded for witness of Jesus- included the above list
which had not worshipped the beast/ who had not received the mark...They all lived the same time:
otherwise if the first one lived 7 years before...then 1000 years after for them would be 1007 years.
By the way...1 Thes 4...states that the dead shall rise first...
