What makes it impossible for a carnal mind to be subject to the law?

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Mar 4, 2013
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#41
1. I never said they were righteous. I said. THEY FOLLOWED THE LAW. Amd appeared righjteous to everyone they came in contact with.
2. When it comes to the TEN COMMANDMENTS, they followed the law.

are you going to sit there and argue with me??? When even God himself claimed that our righteousness must excede theirs?? Why would he say this unless it was a near impossible task?

Do you think yours exceeds theres? I would challenge you on that. I know mine does not. It does not even come close!
Honoring father and mother is one of the ten commandments as we know them. What did I just post on #39? You obviously didn't read it. They skewed that commandment. And yes, I do think mine exceeds theirs, and so does yours if you do not have a carnal mind, but you sound as if you are not subject to the law because you don't think it's any good for today's believer.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#42
Honoring father and mother is one of the ten commandments as we know them. What did I just post on #39? You obviously didn't read it. They skewed that commandment. And yes, I do think mine exceeds theirs, and so does yours if you do not have a carnal mind, but you sound as if you are not subject to the law because you don't think it's any good for today's believer.

Oh yours does?

You must be the first man to earn your salvation other than Christ.


Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

So how does it feel to enter the kingdom of God because your righteousness exceeded theirs?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#43
Mark 7:1-5 (CJB with translated words for better understanding)
1 The Pharisees and some of the Torah-teachers who had come from Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) gathered together with Yeshua (Jesus)
2 and saw that some of his disciples ate with ritually unclean hands, that is, without doing *n'tilat-yadayim.
3 (For the Pharisees, and indeed all the Judeans, holding fast to the Tradition of the Elders, do not eat unless they have given their hands a ceremonial washing.
4 Also, when they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they have rinsed their hands up to the wrist; and they adhere to many other traditions, such as washing cups, pots and bronze vessels.)
5 The Pharisees and the Torah-teachers asked him, "Why don't your disciples live in accordance with the Tradition of the Elders, but instead eat with ritually unclean hands?"

Exodus 30:17-21 (CJB)

17 ADONAI said to Moshe,
18 "You are to make a basin of bronze, with a base of bronze, for washing. Place it between the tent of meeting and the altar, and put water in it.
19 Aharon and his sons will wash their hands and feet there
20 when they enter the tent of meeting - they are to wash with water, so that they won't die. Also when they approach the altar to minister by burning an offering for ADONAI,
21 they are to wash their hands and feet, so that they won't die. This is to be a perpetual law for them through all their generations.


Everything concerning the priesthood through Aaron should be firmly equated with Christ (being the High Priest) through Judah. Jesus carried the filth of the world to the cross, and was not clean before His Father. Henceforth, Jesus died, and was forsaken, as the sons of Aaron would have been if they had not washed according to the commandments given.
The Pharisees totally missed the significance of the law for real. Now, there is certainly nothing wrong with washing the hands before we eat or washing the dishes. I find nowhere in the Mosaic Law that what the Pharisees presented to Jesus and His disciples was the entire law of cleansing. They missed the boat, and furthermore required others to miss it too. This is the problem that Jesus had with them. It wasn’t the Mosaic Law that Jesus was against, it was the distortion caused by traditions of the Scribes, and Pharisees.

Being clean was a major part of the Mosaic Law. There was a law in place for the cleansing of a person that had been sick, such as stomach flu, and related sicknesses. This is found in Leviticus 15:1-13, and can also be understood as one that is, or has been spiritually sick paralleled with the significant process in the spiritual cleansing. There is also a law detailing how a soldier is to stay clean. This is found in Deuteronomy 23:9-14, and with the spiritual mind that instigates the discernment of the soul, we can see that the camp is the church of today, and we are soldiers of the cross.

Mark 7:6-9 (CJB)
6Yeshua answered them, **"Yesha`yahu was right when he prophesied about you ***hypocrites -- as it is written, `These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me.
7 Their worship of me is useless, because they teach man-made rules as if they were doctrines.'
8 "You depart from God's command and hold onto human tradition. Indeed,"
9 he said to them, "you have made a fine art of departing from God's command in order to keep your tradition!

*n'tilat-yadayim=ceremonial hand-washing prescribed by the Oral Torah to be done before meals and at other times in order to be ritually pure; it continues to be a norm in Orthodox Judaism.


**Yesha`yahu=The Tanakh prophet **Isaiah

Isaiah 29:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

***hypocrites=pretenders, taken from the Greek word hypokrisis, which meant playing a part on the stage, or putting on a mask to misrepresent reality.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#44

Oh yours does?

You must be the first man to earn your salvation other than Christ.


Matthew 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

So how does it feel to enter the kingdom of God because your righteousness exceeded theirs?
Sorry, evidently you think yours doesn't. May God bless you with more wisdom.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#46
Numerous times, the scribes and Pharisees, tried to entice Jesus into confrontations because Jesus was a threat to their preeminent statues, and bogus regulations. They had distorted the truth of the Old Testament to conform to their own liking so they would appear righteous to all observers. I issue a word of warning to the reader, that the same precedence holds true with professing Christians today, but on the other side of the spectrum. Today there are some that claim salvation in vain. In order to claim righteousness, they negate the Old Testament by their rhetoric, saying that the Spirit instructs them rather than the Word of God that was recorded in the Old Testament. They proclaim that the New Testament has replaced the Old Testament.

Knowing that “fulfillment” means to complete a task, or a project that is now completed, we can say that it has ended, but not taken away. When we read that Christ is the end of the law, we should see the truth by this definition. There is a completion, and fullness, one completed package through Christ. So as we continue, please understand that Jesus is the mediator that incorporates the Old Testament into the New Testament, bringing together God and man by destroying the division. Nothing has been deleted, but rather completed.
 
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P

phil112

Guest
#47
What makes it impossible for a carnal mind to be subject to the law?
Quite simple, and though some of you have gotten close, none have got there just yet with your answer. I live in Oklahoma. Can a Texas police officer arrest me for breaking his law? No. Why? Because I am not in his jurisdiction. Only when you come under God's jurisdiction (get saved) are we subject to His commands. There are two sides. You are on one or the other.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#48
Matthew 22:33-40 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38[/SUP]
This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39[/SUP]
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40[/SUP]
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Some believe that these two commandments are New Testament only, never realizing that the correct definition of a Godly love is defined in the Old Testament. If we make the mistake that this is a new commandment given to us for the first time in the New Testament, we will not have the instruction, or the knowledge to understand what the characteristics of true love really are in the sight of God. Misunderstanding, or going so far as to deny the instructions of a Godly love, we have no alternative but to make up our own rules, and then call ourselves righteous because we love. Yippee! That is so repulsive, and I would say that mindset is also repulsive in the sight of God. I dare say that this mindset makes us equal to the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees. We know that Jesus told His disciples to love each other the way He loved them, and some might say, “This is a new commandment.” Sorry, it isn’t because Jesus and His Father are One. Jesus never said, “Oh forget what My Father said, just take my word for it.” He said exactly the opposite.
John 5:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18b (KJV)
[SUP]18 b[/SUP] but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
 
Feb 7, 2014
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#49
Matthew 22:33-40 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[SUP]38[/SUP]
This is the first and great commandment.
[SUP]39[/SUP]
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[SUP]40[/SUP]
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Some believe that these two commandments are New Testament only, never realizing that the correct definition of a Godly love is defined in the Old Testament. If we make the mistake that this is a new commandment given to us for the first time in the New Testament, we will not have the instruction, or the knowledge to understand what the characteristics of true love really are in the sight of God. Misunderstanding, or going so far as to deny the instructions of a Godly love, we have no alternative but to make up our own rules, and then call ourselves righteous because we love. Yippee! That is so repulsive, and I would say that mindset is also repulsive in the sight of God. I dare say that this mindset makes us equal to the hypocrisy of the scribes and Pharisees. We know that Jesus told His disciples to love each other the way He loved them, and some might say, “This is a new commandment.” Sorry, it isn’t because Jesus and His Father are One. Jesus never said, “Oh forget what My Father said, just take my word for it.” He said exactly the opposite.
John 5:31 (KJV)
[SUP]31 [/SUP]If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Leviticus 19:18b (KJV)
[SUP]18 b[/SUP] but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Love has ALWAYS fulfilled the law. If you are married, you won't hand your wife a set of "what not to do's" and tell her that is your definition of love. No. You love her, and care for her as if she was you. You cover her shortcomings in the affection you have for her. That is love.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#50
Love has ALWAYS fulfilled the law. If you are married, you won't hand your wife a set of "what not to do's" and tell her that is your definition of love. No. You love her, and care for her as if she was you. You cover her shortcomings in the affection you have for her. That is love.
I love the relationship you present. It's a clear depiction of Christ and the church, for Jesus' sacrifice is for the remission of those shortcomings. And the law describes the idiosyncrasies of agape love, God's way, not our way.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#51
Sorry, evidently you think yours doesn't. May God bless you with more wisdom.
No. I know mine does not.

If it did. As Jesus said, I could enter the kingdom of God based on my own righteousness.

Sorry you think yours is. And it answers alot..

May God bless you with more wisdom
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#52
Numerous times, the scribes and Pharisees, tried to entice Jesus into confrontations because Jesus was a threat to their preeminent statues, and bogus regulations. They had distorted the truth of the Old Testament to conform to their own liking so they would appear righteous to all observers. I issue a word of warning to the reader, that the same precedence holds true with professing Christians today, but on the other side of the spectrum. Today there are some that claim salvation in vain. In order to claim righteousness, they negate the Old Testament by their rhetoric, saying that the Spirit instructs them rather than the Word of God that was recorded in the Old Testament. They proclaim that the New Testament has replaced the Old Testament.

Knowing that “fulfillment” means to complete a task, or a project that is now completed, we can say that it has ended, but not taken away. When we read that Christ is the end of the law, we should see the truth by this definition. There is a completion, and fullness, one completed package through Christ. So as we continue, please understand that Jesus is the mediator that incorporates the Old Testament into the New Testament, bringing together God and man by destroying the division. Nothing has been deleted, but rather completed.
The problem with the pharisees is they thought they were made right by the law. If your made right by the law. what need do you have of a savior?

Your following right after them it appears. Why bother profess Christ? It is obvious you do not think you need him..
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#53
Love has ALWAYS fulfilled the law. If you are married, you won't hand your wife a set of "what not to do's" and tell her that is your definition of love. No. You love her, and care for her as if she was you. You cover her shortcomings in the affection you have for her. That is love.
Amen. But is because you are not focused on self (pride) but on others (the spirit.

If, on the other hand, Yu focus on self (pride) you will be tempted to cheat. Because you may feel your wife is not supplying your needs. so you feel the right to go out and get your needs met. Or you might feel you have the right (self again through pride) to sleep with anyone you want.

If we focus on love, we would never even be tempted.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#54
I love the relationship you present. It's a clear depiction of Christ and the church, for Jesus' sacrifice is for the remission of those shortcomings. And the law describes the idiosyncrasies of agape love, God's way, not our way.
it does??

Wow. How does the law describe the love of God. other than the love of God fulfilled the law in all aspects. so we who can not and will not fulfill the law and are deserving the righteous judgment of th elaw could be saved from the condemnation imposed by the law?
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#55
Paul didn't have a carnal mind. Within himself he saw 2 laws working against each other.

Romans 7:23-25 (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If Paul would have been of a carnal mind, there would have been no conflict within himself. If we are different than Paul in this area, we will have no conflict within ourselves, and that confirms a carnal mindset that cannot be subject to the law of God. He thanked God because he was given the capability to serve the law of God with his mind.

Matthew 22:37 (KJV)
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Romans 8:6-8 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#56
it does??

Wow. How does the law describe the love of God. other than the love of God fulfilled the law in all aspects. so we who can not and will not fulfill the law and are deserving the righteous judgment of th elaw could be saved from the condemnation imposed by the law?
Deuteronomy 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged. (this has to do with honoring parents as one of the Ten Commandments)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Leviticus 19:15-18 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Just for starters. It's in the law, and it's not just New Testament. There's more too if you are interested.
 
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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#57
1. I never said they were righteous. I said. THEY FOLLOWED THE LAW. Amd appeared righjteous to everyone they came in contact with.
2. When it comes to the TEN COMMANDMENTS, they followed the law.

are you going to sit there and argue with me??? When even God himself claimed that our righteousness must excede theirs?? Why would he say this unless it was a near impossible task?

Do you think yours exceeds theres? I would challenge you on that. I know mine does not. It does not even come close!
You missed this part about the Pharisees...

Mat 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
Mat 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Mat 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Mat 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
Mat 23:12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Christ NEVER said they kept the Commandments. Point of fact, He upbraided them for their conduct.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#58
it does??

Wow. How does the law describe the love of God. other than the love of God fulfilled the law in all aspects. so we who can not and will not fulfill the law and are deserving the righteous judgment of th elaw could be saved from the condemnation imposed by the law?
Uh, Paul says the Law describes the love of God...

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The NKJV is a little clearer here...

Rom 13:9 For the commandments, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," "YOU SHALL NOT MURDER," "YOU SHALL NOT STEAL," "YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS," "YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

The last six Commandments are simply summed up in love your neighbor. The love of God is to keep His Commandments...

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Assuming the Apostle Jesus loved knew what he was talking about. (I think he did.)
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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#59
Me? I'd rather live beside and have for a neighbor, a Commandment keeper every time.
 
Mar 4, 2013
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#60
When Jesus is said to have fulfilled the law, He was also properly teaching and defining the spiritual truth of the law (Old Testament) as God originally intended. Many times scripture will seem to contradict itself in the way we read it and understand it in our own English language. The Epistles that Paul wrote can seem to be very negative against the law. One might ask themselves why Paul mentioned the law of Moses at all, for he was the minister called by Jesus, to teach the Gentiles who had some, if not most of the writings of the law and the prophets via the dispersed Israelites from the time they were conquered by the Syrian Empire.

Paul clarifies two things about the truth and purpose of the law, in how it was to be used as a God given tool, and how it was not to be abused, and misrepresented by false teaching, or totally neglected or totally administered in the flesh for self-justification. To neglect it is motivated by not wanting to be convicted by the Spirit. Some people just flat out refuse to see themselves as God sees all of us. God gave us a mirror called the law. If we use that mirror wisely, we have the law of liberty. It’s the same law, not a different one.

James 1:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2:8-13 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.