Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

What about if one can work, is not lazy, but there are no jobs for him in his country? This is not the work that demonstrates faith. It is the work of the Spirit we are to do that demonstrates faith. Love, peace, joy, mercy, these things of which has no law against it. What you describe is something that is first SEEN. How can it then be by faith if I know that if I work hard at a job I get paid a reward for it?

Again, it seems you are trying to find some "exceptions" to get around 1 Tim 5:8

I am not dealing with exceptions and looking to find a way to get around 1 Tim 5:8 but I am asking a straight forward question:


If a Christian is heathly and can work. Can he be lazy and not work and thereby not provide for his famlly yet still be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Can you demonstrate how a person can have good works his whole life, faithfully provide for his household, do charity works, give to the poor, etc. but not have faith in Jesus, and still be saved?

It's not possible.


If one does not have the work of faith he can never be a Christian

 

[SeaBass]

You have this terribly twisted. Works and a changed life are EVIDENCE of Salvation they cannot save you. You should do a study on the thief on the cross who admitted to living a sinful life and that his punishment was just. What "work" did he do? He confessed his sin. He accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus then promised him he would be with Him in paradise.

hi,

You posted "Works and a changed life are EVIDENCE of Salvation they cannot save you"

Let's ASSUME for a moment "Joe" was saved by faith alone, he was saved by no works.

Now that Joe is a Christian, does Joe have to do those works that are "evidence of salvation"?

Can Joe just not do those works that are "evidence of his savlation" yet still be saved?

 

[SeaBass]

The work that they are talking about is not your job. I my bread is to do the will of my father. And yes, someone can receive Jesus on their deathbed and be saved right before they die. But this is not something that anyone should attempt to do.

You are saved without works. There is nothing that you can do to earn your salvation. But, if you are truly grateful for Jesus you will do the work. So posthuman's statement is true: Faith alone saves, but faith that saves is not alone. You are saved through your acceptance of Jesus, but if you accept Jesus you will work.

Hi,

You posted "You are saved without works. There is nothing that you can do to earn your salvation. But, if you are truly grateful for Jesus you will do the work"

You say you will do the work. My question is can you NOT do the work yet still be saved?


You also post "but if you accept Jesus you will work".

So here you are implying salvation is NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS....right?

 

[Hoffco]

"Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone"

- John Calvin

John Calvin was denying his own theology in this statement above. 1. "faith" does not save,God saves; and 2. and "faith alone" does not save. We can only have a saving faith if God saves us from our sin bondage by the new birth,then, faith and works will save. "If we sow to the Spirit we reap eternal life" Gal 6:7-10. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

Hi, I think you need to answer that question yourself. You already know Jesus died on the cross... That Adam's sin was "imputed" on all mankind.... Everyone who is born is born in sin because of Adam. Having done no good or bad thing it makes no difference we were all under the curse of Adam's sin.

God sent His Son into the world not to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved... The world was already condemned by Adam's sin. Judgment fell on all human kind (for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God) BUT Jesus became the Second Adam. Sin was "imputed" to Christ...
Righteousness was "imputed" on mankind for those who recieve His righteousness. Can we change our human condition since we are all in Adam? It took Jesus to change our status from sinners to saints. We were dead in trespasses and sins. Now we are alive in Him.

Jesus recieved OUR sin and paid for it. We recieve HIS righteousness and are new creations IN Christ. The divine exchange. Amen.

Only the Holy Spirit can explain grace to a heart. It goes against human reason to trust in someone other than yourself for anything so important as your eternal soul. Take God at His Word. A new creation is made when a person accepts Jesus Christ. Learning how to walk out your christian walk is part of that new creation journey. An unsaved man cannot walk out being a new creation since he has not been created a new.

When we know our salvation is secured by Jesus Christ and not our own feeble minded confused human reason, we can rest and not wonder if a corpse is able to walk the christian walk. As it says in Hebrews, believers work to REST not work to work. Rest in the finished work of Christ, not human works. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth.

But the questions are for you to answer.

It's hard to get someone saved and remained saved WITHOUT ever doing any kind of works isn't it?

 

[SeaBass]

if a person has believed on Christ & accepted His grace,
but then forsakes all the good works God has for them and continues on in sin - if that is a sheep our Shepherd wouldn't even bother looking for the carcass of, why in the world does a verse like this exist in our Bibles?

deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Corinthians 5:5)

This is A issue I am dealing with in this thread.

My position is one must do obedient works in order to become saved and faithful works and good works in order to remain saved...one must do works BEFORE and AFTER salvation.


In this thread, I have been willing to ASSUME that "Joe" can become saved by faith only (no works). NOW that "Joe" is a Christian, can he continue to do NO WORKS and remain save?

Some faith only proponents say "Joe" does works in order to prove he has been saved.

So here's the big question: Can Christian Joe NOT do those post-salvation works yet still be saved?

If the "faith only" proponent says "no" then he is making savlation conditional upon works.

If the "faith only" proponent answers "yes" then the those post-salvation are not necesary for proof of savlation defeating thier own proposition that he must do works to prove he was saved.


So what is a "faith only" proponent to do?

 

[SeaBass]

Look, Seabass, the number 1 reason our salvation is eternal is because we're all sinners. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

No matter how hard we try we can never be good enough to deserve or merit eternal life in heaven. Therefore, the only way to be saved is to have all our sins forgiven us, the slate wiped clean, and all our filthiness washed away, and to have righteousness automatically imputed upon us by faith. And the only way that can happen is to believe in Jesus, and accept Jesus' atonement for our sins. He was punished for our sins so we wouldn't have to be.

4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Your works can't keep you saved, anymore than they can save you in the first place.

So your position is one does not have to do works in order to become saved and no works after he is saved.


Even if I for a moment ASSUME one does no works in order to become saved, how do you keep the Christian saved WITHOUT works:

.......how do you get around verses like Eph 2:10? Can one ALREADY saved NOT walk in those preordained good works and thwart what God preordained but still being saved? Can a Christian not work to provide for his own house, deny the faith be works than an infidel yet still be sved? Can the Christan not walk in the lihgt, 1 Jn 1:7, NOT have all his sins washed away yet still be saved? Not be faithful unto death yet still be sved, Rv 2:10, NOt keep Christ's works yet still over come and be saved, Rev 2:26?

 

[posthuman]

let's say unsaved Joe is lost at sea & stranded alone on a desert island and will never be seen again by any man.
a copy of the Bible is washed ashore with Him.

can Joe be saved?

 

[John_S]

God dictates what is needed for salvation - NOT human beings.

 

[BenFTW]

SeaBass, all that needs to be said in regards to this thread, has been said. May the Holy Spirit give you revelation. Your hypothetical with Joe fails in one account. You assume it means he denied his faith (in Jesus Christ). Let me share what I saw on a site.

From site: Notice that Paul said that those who don't provide for their own have denied the faith, not their faith. This makes a distinction between denying the doctrines of godly conduct, and individuals renouncing their personal faith in the Lord

So, in regards to what that site said, I will add upon that and show you a verse that represents the truth of whats being said (that is, the faith(doctrine/conduct) and not their faith[in Christ] of salvation).

2 Corinthians 13:5-7

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified


7 Now pray to God that you do no evil[emphasis added, conduct], not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.


See, Paul is basically pointing them to Christ, and to their identity. Ever hear of "We are the righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ"? He is calling them to who they are. They aren't disqualified, but realize who you are. Realize who is in you, Jesus Christ. As some preachers deem it "Right believing leads to right living." He isn't condemning them, he is reminding them of who they are, that Christ is in them.

So again, is such a man saved? Is Joe saved? He '"may seem disqualified" but as Paul says, "But I trust you will know that we are not disqualified." However, sure enough, his conduct will have chastisement, for the betterment of himself and for his family. We aren't saying his conduct isn't "evil", yes he should do what is "honorable." However, he is not disqualified, for his quality is not in himself but in Christ. Joe is the "righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ."

 

[SeaBass]

let's say unsaved Joe is lost at sea & stranded alone on a desert island and will never be seen again by any man.
a copy of the Bible is washed ashore with Him.

can Joe be saved?

I will say "no".

 

[chubbena]

Faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
It's by faith in God alone the saints did what they did and we are to do what we do.
I don't see contradictions here. I'm just dumb.

 

[BenFTW]

God dictates what is needed for salvation - NOT human beings.

You are correct and His answer is in His Word. Jesus Christ.

[h=3]John 3:16[/h]King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[crossnote]

Yup salvation is impossible without works...........> HIS WORKS!

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, all that needs to be said in regards to this thread, has been said. May the Holy Spirit give you revelation. Your hypothetical with Joe fails in one account. You assume it means he denied his faith (in Jesus Christ). Let me share what I saw on a site.

From site: Notice that Paul said that those who don't provide for their own have denied the faith, not their faith. This makes a distinction between denying the doctrines of godly conduct, and individuals renouncing their personal faith in the Lord

So, in regards to what that site said, I will add upon that and show you a verse that represents the truth of whats being said (that is, the faith(doctrine/conduct) and not their faith[in Christ] of salvation).

2 Corinthians 13:5-7

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified


7 Now pray to God that you do no evil[emphasis added, conduct], not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.


See, Paul is basically pointing them to Christ, and to their identity. Ever hear of "We are the righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ"? He is calling them to who they are. They aren't disqualified, but realize who you are. Realize who is in you, Jesus Christ. As some preachers deem it "Right believing leads to right living." He isn't condemning them, he is reminding them of who they are, that Christ is in them.

So again, is such a man saved? Is Joe saved? He '"may seem disqualified" but as Paul says, "But I trust you will know that we are not disqualified." However, sure enough, his conduct will have chastisement, for the betterment of himself and for his family. We aren't saying his conduct isn't "evil", yes he should do what is "honorable." However, he is not disqualified, for his quality is not in himself but in Christ. Joe is the "righteousness of God, in Jesus Christ."

1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

If Christian Joe does not work to provide for his own house he has denied THE faith. "THE FAITH" refers to the NT system of faith, he is denying the NT!!!

Gal 1:23 "...That he (Paul) which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed."

Paul preached "THE FAITH", he preached the word of God, Christ's NT gospel and one that denies "THE FAITH" is denying God's word, denying the gospel.

 

[dcontroversal]

A contradicting statement if there ever was one.

Yeah kind of like contradicting...

Not by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US

In the grace you are, having been saved out of faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES..IT IS A GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN CAN BRAG...<----sounds familiar..people bragging about their works that is!

Abraham and David-->blessedness of a man who has (believed) without the deeds of the law and it has been put to his account for righteousness..

Galatians-->double curses heretical teachers for teaching saved by faith, but kept BY WORKS.....

Abraham BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS PUT TO HIS ACCOUNT FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS....

Keep trusting in your works for salvation as according to Galatians you believe/teach falsehood and will be double cursed to hell for teaching saved by faith, but kept by works....<----NOT ACCORDING TO ME, but rather, ACCORDING TO PAUL under inspiration of God's word as found in both Romans and Galatians..

 

[SeaBass]

Yup salvation is impossible without works...........> HIS WORKS!

Works would still be necessary for you to be saved.

What about Eph 2:10, can a Christian NOT walk in those good work God preordained the Christian to walk in?

 

[crossnote]

Works would still be necessary for you to be saved.

What about Eph 2:10, can a Christian NOT walk in those good work God preordained the Christian to walk in?

Our walking in good works doesn't save us.

 

[SeaBass]

Yeah kind of like contradicting...

Not by WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HAS HE SAVED US

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"


Works of righteousness we have done refers to works of merit.

'Washing of regneration' refers to being water baptized. Note how works of merit are CONTRASTED to the obedient work of submitting to water baptism.

In the grace you are, having been saved out of faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES..IT IS A GIFT OF GOD, NOT OF WORKS LEST ANY MAN CAN BRAG...<----sounds familiar..people bragging about their works that is!

"not of works" refer to works of merit. Not an obedient faith.

Abraham and David-->blessedness of a man who has (believed) without the deeds of the law and it has been put to his account for righteousness..

Abraham and David had obedient faiths.

"Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"

Does God forgive the iniquites of those that do nothing or that that obediently do the work of repenting?

Galatians-->double curses heretical teachers for teaching saved by faith, but kept BY WORKS.....

Keeping the works of the OT law does not save. Keeping Christ 's NT works does save, Rev 2:26.

Abraham BELIEVED GOD AND IT WAS PUT TO HIS ACCOUNTR FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS....

Abraham had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8

Keep trusting in your works for salvation as according to Galatians you believe/teach falsehood and will be double cursed to hell for teaching saved by faith, but kept by works....<----NOT ACCORDING TO ME, but rather, ACCORDING TO PAUL under inspiration of God's word as found in both Romans and Galatians..

For one that is ALREADY a CHristian, how do you get around verses like Eph 2:10? Can one ALREADY saved NOT walk in those preordained good works and thwart what God preordained but still being saved? Can a Christian not work to provide for his own house, deny the faith be works than an infidel yet still be sved? Can the Christan not walk in the lihgt, 1 Jn 1:7, NOT have all his sins washed away yet still be saved? Not be faithful unto death yet still be sved, Rv 2:10, NOt keep Christ's works yet still over come and be saved, Rev 2:26?