Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[BradC]

Faroukfarouk, this post is not directed at you. I'm just using it as a starting point.

I guess much of the problem is, when one promotes good work, he would considered by some as fleshy, as not spiritual, as boastful. That's not what the Bible says.
The word "work" is taboo in modern Christian circles. The writers below would be considered heretics today.
The Imitation of Christ - Thomas Kempis
Holiness - J C Ryle
The Cost of Discipleship - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
One has to wonder why.

We are ordained unto good works and to provoke one another unto love and good works and we are to be careful to maintain good works, not to justify us as to who we are in Christ, but to reveal the goodness of God to sinful man. The fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness and truth (Eph 5:9).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faroukfarouk, this post is not directed at you. I'm just using it as a starting point.

I guess much of the problem is, when one promotes good work, he would considered by some as fleshy, as not spiritual, as boastful. That's not what the Bible says.
The word "work" is taboo in modern Christian circles. The writers below would be considered heretics today.
The Imitation of Christ - Thomas Kempis
Holiness - J C Ryle
The Cost of Discipleship - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
One has to wonder why.

I am not sure I see it this way.

The problem comes when one promotes work as a means to either recieve, or keep salvation. Then it becomes a major issue because it becomes a gospel issue .

All Christians should work (eph 2: 10) and it is not easy work. It is actually an impossible work only made possible by the power of God.

we have a mission. Those who stand on the sideline, Although they may not have to do much work. Will not benefit from the priviledges of the work that needs accomplished, in this life. or the next.

 

[posthuman]

here's a suggestion for all of us today:

don't judge one another. don't worry. just trust your salvation to Christ, go out and find what the Lord is doing, and join Him in His work.

 

[posthuman]

& to Joe, stranded on a desert island with nothing but God and His Word,

praise Him. don't worry that you cannot be saved because there is no other man on the island to baptize you. walk out into the sea and let God Himself wash you clean.

 

[BradC]

I can just see the man that Jesus was before He was crucified listening to this argument! Can't you just see His reaction if someone went to Him and said "look how wonderful I am and all I have done, so accept me into your kingdom". Or a drunk went to Christ saying the he repents of all his sins, he will turn from all of them, but let me drink as much as I want and wipe me clean of all but that, I like it too much to let it go. ---or my fancy car I idolize, or the movies that glamorize sin or----.

You could tell Christ all these excuses for "no law" that you have all gathered like "it won't save" or any of them. I don't think Christ would listen to any of it. Christ looks for the humble, repentant, teachable person who truly loves Him.

We don't know the first thing about the love of God until we let God love us. That is how we learn the love of God and that is the love the Holy Spirit sheds in our heart. The law never revealed the love of God, only his holiness and it made sin exceedingly sinful so that we would respond to the love of God to be forgiven of sin. It took the Son of God as the spotless Lamb, who put away sin, to reveal the love of God. When we respond to the love of God by faith we see what Christ did to sin so that we might have life. Repentance must come from the goodness and love of God or it will be repentance based upon the law of the flesh. We can not preserve any area of our flesh if we want to grow in grace and knowledge of Christ. We take these areas of sin in our flesh, that easily beset us, and lay them aside at the cross to be crucified in our experience. We must receive grace in our weakness to have strength to overcome sin and not give it a place, but we also must be able to rebound from sin when we fail.

 

[Vernon]

IN the tribulation; faith without works will indeed be dead. James is written to the twelve tribes which are scattered aborad and is Doctrinally pointed at Jews in the time of Jacob's trouble.

A tribulation saint must endure unto the end to be saved.

Salvation in Daniel's 70th week will be Faith with an element of works for salvation. Just like it was in the Old Testament.

Both Jew and Gentile will have to secure their salvation by doing the right works (Matt. 25). And also by not taking the mark of the beast (Rev. 14:9-12).


Salvation today in the Church Age though is only by Grace through Faith (Eph. 2:8-10; Tit. 3:4-7).

I disagree with this understanding, OT NT or tribulation all are saved by Grace Alone, we must endure until the end and not turn away, God does not change and his salvation has always been by the same means and will always be by the same grace. By the grace of God Abraham believed and by that same grace we believe, from the ages to the ages God remains the same. We have a fuller revelation than Abraham had and those of the tribulation will have more revelation than us, but regardless of the amount of revelation we have we are all saved by the same grace of God.

Christ be with you always.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Yeah I just read an article (from the same site I shared earlier) about this and it clears up all confusion one might have to think salvation is based on works.

Hello there Ben, I went ahead and read that article which you shared via the link in your earlier post.

I must say the author seems to have the devotional and practical application of James pretty well.

However, he overlooked the Doctrinal application of James.

Christians who tend to think that salvation is the same for each dispensation also seem to overlook the Doctrinal application of James.

While I do believe that the teaching of James can be applied to Christians in the Church Age for instruction in righteousness. And I liked how he used the devotional application of James 2 to correlate with the Christian and how his works will one day profit him at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Still though; Doctrinally, you have to be careful because in the time of Jacob's trouble, there will be no Christians. Only tribulation saints.

The book of James is not written to Christians in the Church Age. But it is written to the twelve tribes of Israel.

And salvation in the tribulation will not be by faith only. It will be by faith with an element of works involved. That's why as I pointed out to David earlier, if you compare James 2 with Hebrews 3, 6 and 10, as well as Matthew 25, they all parallel very well. IN Matthew 25:31-46; the basis for one entering into the Millennial Kingdom at the end of the tribulation is based upon how they treated Christ's brethren (the Jews). The Sheep enter in because they helped out the Jews (Matt. 25:34-40). The Goats; on the other hand are cursed and are cast into the Lake of Fire because they did not help out the Jews (Matt. 25:41-46).

You see in the tribulation; faith will not enough for one to be saved. Faith must be accompanied with Works in order for a tribulation saint to make it.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Furthermore Ben,

That is why Paul teaches in Hebrews 3 that for a Hebrew to be made a partaker of Christ, that he must hold stedfast his hope and confidence firm unto the end.

On the contrary, No where in the Pauline Epistles for the Church is a Christian ever told that he must hold his confidence firm unto the end in order to be made a partaker of Christ. In fact, Paul teaches that the moment one is saved, he is baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13-14). He automatically becomes a partaker of Christ.

But in the time of Jacob's trouble when one believes on the Lord, they are not automatically made a partaker of Christ, neither are they regenerated, which means they are not born again. Which is one of the reasons why they must endure unto the end to be made a partaker of Christ.

The very means of salvation is different in Daniel's 70th week. In order for faith to be profitable in the tribulation; it MUST be wrought with works. And that is exactly what James teaches. As well as Hebrews and Matthew.

 

[SeaBass]

See what I wrote in red in your post? You have a works mindset, a works mentality. Who is the overcomer? Lets go to the Word.

[FONT=kepler-std !important]1 John 5:4-5[/FONT]

For whatever is born of God(that is us, born again children of God) overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world(?), but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God(!)?
Overcoming is not a work, its a belief. Belief in Jesus Christ, as clearly laid out in scripture. Again, enter His rest, SeaBass.

I have a "works mindset" for the bible teaches one cannot be saved without works. When the church began at Pentecost in Acts the people asked Peter "what shall we do". They were not commaded to "do no works" but COMMANDED to do works, repent and be baptized. It is obvious those with the "do nothing mindset" are struggling to find ways to get man saved without doing any kind of work at all.


The ones that overcome are the ones that keep Christ's works, Rev 2:26. In the context of Rev 2, Jesus commanded the church at Ephesus to "repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place" That church at Ephesus would overcome if it kept these works Christ gave them. Christ said to the church at Pergamos "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth." They will overcome if they hear and do this work Christ gave them. Those at the church in Thyatira would not overcome "except they repent of their deeds" The church at Ephesus, Pegamos, and Thyatira could not just ignore what Christ told them to do and still overcome.

I will back up a few verses in 1 Jn 5 that you did not quote:

1 Jn 5:2 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

1 Jn 5:3 "For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

1 Jn 5:5 "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God"


Loving God means keeping His commandments. One cannot overcome cannot love God without working to obediently keep His commandments. Doing nothing = no love for God

Believing is a work, Jn 6:27-29. A biblcal belief that saves includes the works of rpeentance, conffessoin and submitting to baptism and not a dead belief only void of these obedient works. As James says, the devils believe and tremble but the devils belief only will not sve them for it is void of these obedient works.

Heb 4:11 "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

There is no rest for those without labour.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Faroukfarouk, this post is not directed at you. I'm just using it as a starting point.

I guess much of the problem is, when one promotes good work, he would considered by some as fleshy, as not spiritual, as boastful. That's not what the Bible says.
The word "work" is taboo in modern Christian circles. The writers below would be considered heretics today.
The Imitation of Christ - Thomas Kempis
Holiness - J C Ryle
The Cost of Discipleship - Dietrich Bonhoeffer
One has to wonder why.

Actually, the writings of J C Ryle are quite widely respected among evangelical Christians.

More broadly, one cannot avoid, however, the Biblical distinction between believers being 'his workmanship, created unto good works' (Ephesians 2.10) and the vital truth in the previous verse, that for those who are saved by grace through faith it is 'not of works' (Ephesians 2.9).

 

[RedTent]

there are some amazing things we can learn about from Christ.

1. He knew who needed him (the drunks and prostitutes, the fisherman and the tax collectors)
2. He knew who did not need him and would not accept him (the LAWyers, or strict followers of the law)
3. He knew peoples hearts (You did not come to learn, you came for a sign, but no sign will be given to you)
4. He knew people would continue to struggle with sin, even after they came to him. But he allowed them to come anyway, and promise never to cast them out.
5. He knew who truly wanted his help. And who were just there because it was the "hip" thing today (I think this represents alot of modern day Chrstianity, and were the people James spoke out against)

1 Thing I do know. and I am not sure what people think this. Is that we have to come to him when we are his enemy (like he came to us when we were his enemy) And he must save us WHILE we are still his enemy. No ne comes to Jesus because they love him, they neither have the capacity to love him, nor the desire to love him. No one can even learn to love him until HE FIRST restores the relationship. Then and only then can they start to learn who he is, and grow the capacity to love him.

From knowing you, this is part of you "down with the law" posts. What you are labeling "strict followers of the law" were people who did not follow the law at all, but people that much of the book of Isaiah spoke to. When Christ went to the drunks and prostitutes it was to turn their life of death around into life with repentance. After repentance, they were to listen to the law that Christ never, ever, said was dead. You get law, repentance, spirit, truth, salvation and all God's truth we are to know about mixed up into your "the law is dead" talk. And the funny thing is, you also speak eloquently for the real law!

 

[SeaBass]

Nice try, but twisted and incorrect

1. The Prodigal son was a son through the entire process and was only perceived dead..
2. 1st Corinthians 3 is unto saved, scripturally immersed church members and testify to the types of works found within the ranks of God's people.
3. Fall does not equate lost and is equivalent to a JUST MAN FALLING 7 TIMES YET RISING UP.
4. Paul said you could walk as an enemy as a saved child of God-->given to saved, scripturally immersed church members...you can look it up yourself..
5. If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: HE CANNOT DENY HIMSELF<---after biblical salvation...ALL APOSTLES FORSOOK HIM AND SOME EVEN DENIED HIM YET WERE STILL SAVED..
6. Numerous men were cut loose for the destruction of the flesh so as the spirit would be saved in the day of judgment
7. Solomon LOST...I am gonna change your name to MR. TWISTY 2 ....If you believe that after reading the discourse between God and Solomon you prove you are a heretical teacher set on falsehoods...for real!
8. David paid the physical cost and under the LAW SHOULD HAVE BEEN STONED TO DEATH FOR MURDER AND ADULTRY.....yet you are blind to the price being paid by the death of the FIRSTBORN SON..

Keep preaching your works for salvation....the only people that Jesus states clearly that he does not know, and who end up being cast into the lake of fire are those who expect to enter heaven based upon their WORKS....

LORD, LORD have we not done.......

I NEVER KNEW YOU---->because you believe and teach a gospel of a (different kind) double cursed to hell...

Faith+Works for salvation=HELL/LAKE OF FIRE

1-- nice twist. The father said " this my son was dead, and is alive again" The son was no more "perceived" to be dead thanhe was "perceived" to be alive again.

2-- in 1 Cor 9:1 Paul called the Corinthians his WORK. In 1 Cor 3 Paul makes a metaphor between building a building and building the church. The church is built by making CONVERTS. Paul laid the foundation at the church in Corinth by working to make the first converts. Others came behind Paul and built upon that foundation by doing the work of making more converts. On the day of judgment their work>converts will be judged, some converts will be judged/revealed by fire to be saved and others judged to be lost.

3--falling is being lost. 1 Tim 3:6 " Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil" 2 Pet 1:10 one can fall from his calling and election into condemnation. A just man can fall but if he does not rise from that fall he will be lost.

4--Paul never said one can be an enemy of Christ and still be saved.

5--if a Christian becomes unfaithful, God remains faithful to Himself and His promises. He does not treat the unfaithful as if he is still faithful.

6--you posted so the spirit being saved was CONDITIONAL upon him belign delivered to Satan for destruction of the flesh?

7--where does the bible indicate Solomon was saved?

8--Yes, David repented, he did not "do nothing" about his sin. God does not cover the inquities of those that "do nothing".


Mt 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

 

[SeaBass]

Faith produces works and biblical faith produces works......

which came first...

Noah built a ark or God preached the word to Noah and Noah had faith which produced the ark?

James is talking about our faith being seen by our works before MEN.....

How can you se my invisible faith?--->by my works

Works do not save, works do not help us get and or keep us saved.....works are evidence of being saved.

You post "works are evidence of being saved."

So those works that are "evidence of being" saved is necesry to be saved. For if one does not have these evidential works, then the lack of those evidential works are evidence one was not saved.

So you cannot have one saved without doing some type of work.

 

[SeaBass]

Again, all of these verses have been covered in my previous posts, especially the one that has this link.
James 2:14-26 - Faith Without Works is Dead? | Till He Comes
That link will deal with your James verses, quite easily I might add.

Good works are not required, and those verses don't show that. They ask, "What profit does it a man to have faith and no works?" It isn't about salvation but about profits or "what benefit is it to a man to have faith and no works?" And this is in regards to a specific judgement, and that is of our works and our rewards. Not salvation but rewards. Faith is dead(useless) to a judgement that is based upon your works (to determine your reward).

All the verses you've posted are easily dealt with, and I have done so. Read previous posts.

Eph 2:10 God preordained Christians to walk in good works. Can one thwart, undo, change what God has preordained?

Mt 25 people are judge based upon their good works or lack of them.

Gal 6:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

1 Jn 3:7 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"


One cannot be a Christian void of good works and expect to still be saved.

 

[SeaBass]

I think what some are confuse with here are the words salvation and faith. Salvation is a free gift given to us by Christ. Believing in him is all you have to do to obtain it. Faith now is the level you live your life for Christ. There are if you read in the scriptures different rewards for us in heaven, and we live our life ( the works we do ) determines the reward we get. If you how ever think you have earn your way into heaven by the works you do, it will be shown to you that your thinking is in vain. You don't have to earn your way. It is a free gift by believing in Jesus Christ.

You posted "Believing in him is all you have to do to obtain it"

What about repentance, Lk 13:3,5? Can one remain impenitent of his sins and yet be saved in his unforgiven sins?

You posted "...the works we do ) determines the reward we get..."

What if one did not do these works, will he still be saved?

You posted " If you how ever think you have earn your way into heaven by the works..."


I have not seen anyone in this thread say that works earn salvation. It is a misuderstanding by those who hold the faith only teachings that works automatically earn something. When Naaman dipped in the river 7 times, did his work of dipping earn his cleasnsing or was his cleansing by grace?

 

[BenFTW]

You post "works are evidence of being saved."

So those works that are "evidence of being" saved is necesry to be saved. For if one does not have these evidential works, then the lack of those evidential works are evidence one was not saved.

So you cannot have one saved without doing some type of work.

2 Corinthians 13:5-7

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.


7 Now I pray to God that you do no evil, not that we should appear approved, but that you should do what is honorable, though we may seem disqualified.


Sorry, but as the saying goes, "lack of evidence is not evidence of absence." Or, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" Atheist's use this line of reasoning for the existence of God, they don't see evidence therefore He doesnt exist. But that isn't the case.

 

[notuptome]

Eph 2:10 God preordained Christians to walk in good works. Can one thwart, undo, change what God has preordained?

Mt 25 people are judge based upon their good works or lack of them.

Gal 6:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith."

1 Jn 3:7 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"


One cannot be a Christian void of good works and expect to still be saved.

If the blind lead the blind do they not both fall into the ditch?

Paul said of his kinsmen Israel that they go about to establish their own righteousness but they miss the righteousness of God in Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

grace+faith=biblical salvation--->produces works

Can one be saved WITHOUT those "produced works"?

 

[SeaBass]

Hmmm this is all very interesting..
I think I wanna say what I feel about all this.
We are saved by grace and faith. When we have faith we believe Jesus died for our sins and came back again.
Because we believe this we want to do works for the Lord. Not because we feel it will save us (Jesus already did that when he died for us) but because we LOVE God and want to live to glorify Him.. And our good works glorify Him.
To have faith is to want to do works for God because we Love him.
But to do works alone doesn't mean we have faith.

Now I could be wrong.. but that's just how I feel.
Please by all means if I'm missing something tell me. Just don't be rude..
I don't know the bible the way some of you do..I've been studying but I have a lot to learn. So please be patient with me..

Hi,

You posted "Because we believe this we want to do works for the Lord."

The issue is, can a Christian NOT do those for the Lord yet still be saved?


You posted "To have faith is to want to do works for God because we Love him."

Again, can the Christian NOT want to do works for God yet still be saved?

 

[notuptome]

Can one be saved WITHOUT those "produced works"?

Depends on the context. What difference does it make to you? Have you been designated to condemn those who do not measure up to your standard? The Lord pondereth the hearts of men.

By what measure you measure others you will be measured.

For the cause of Christ
Roger