Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[BenFTW]

Mt 18:9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

Jesus was using hyperbole. One can pluck his eye out and still end up in hell fire for plucking the eye out is no guarantee for salvation.

Yet another thing that went over your head. lol

Oh, heres another analogy for you.

This is like saying that in order to be an Olympian, one must enter the race. So, therefore, if you don't enter the race, you are therefore not an Olympian. However, an Olympian by the very definition will enter the race, to argue such a thing is arbitrary. Its like "No duh." But to say that an Olympian isn't an Olympian if he doesn't enter the race, is not true. He just hasn't shown he is an Olympian. So, is entering the race necessary to prove he is an Olympian? Yes! The question is, to prove to whom? To God or men? God knows hes an Olympian he doesn't need to prove it to God, but men may not be aware of that he is an Olympian therefore the race is a witness to the fact he is an Olympian.

Maybe this one is better than the other two. Not sure.

 

[ladylynn]

I do not see anyone here arguing they can work for and earn salvation. That is the typical strawman arguement offered up by faith only proponents.


Let's suppose out of my good grace I am giving you a brand new car, you did nothing at all to earn it, I am GIVING it to you absolutely FREE. To get this absolutely free car you must come to my office to get the title and keys then go across the street to the car dealership to get the car. Your WORK in coming to my office to get the title and keys and then going to get the car do not earn you that car at all, they are just necessary CONDITIONS attached to the free gift.

So I offer you up front the car for free. You now have a couple of choices.

1) you can say "no thanks I do not want your free gift", and in that case you will not get it.

2) you can say "yes I want it", then that means you are also accepting the conditions I attached to MY FREE gift to you.

You cannot say you want the car but do not want to come to my office or the dealership, that is, you cannot say you want the free car and REJECT my condtions. Rejecting my conditions is the same as rejecting my free gift. You cannot make demands on the gift-giver that I get rid of the conditions or change the conditions to accomodate you. You cannot say that you want the car but you do not want to do the work of going to the office and the car dealer, but instead you want to sit and do nothing and have me bring you the keys, title and car to you. This is what faith only does, it makes demands on God the Gift Giver to change His conditions, that God does everything while man sits and does nothing. God never made "doing nothing" a condition on His free gift of salvation but made belief, repentance, confession and baptism the NECESSARY conditions upon His free gift.

So you accept my free gift of the car and do the works of coming to my office getting the title and keys and then go to the car dealer and get the car. You are driving your new car around and meet a friend who asks you "where did you get the car?"

You say "I earned it"

Even though you did the works of coming to my office to get the title and keys and went to the dealer to get the car, did you tell your friend the truth when you told her you earned that car I gave you for free?

Dear SeaBass.., I LOVE that you wrote that because it is the very thing God insists upon and it is the very thing we just cannot accept.

that God does everything while man sits and does nothing. God never made "doing nothing" a condition on His free gift of salvation


Yes, it is the very thing we must do to have the free gift. Man in his pride of life, in his idea he is actually someone when he is no one, cannot fathom he needs God's provision to THIS degree.

If we believe we had anything to do with attaining this wonderful gift than we will also have some idea that we can also mis place it or misunderstand it. That is why so many christians are lacking the security of their salvation and are tormented in their minds about it.

They can have recieved the gift of eternal life but not experience the joy and fruits of it because they are trying to be righteous over and over again when it has already been imputed to them. If we don't know what we have we cannot act on it. You can be locked in a room and have the key in your pocket but never get out and starve in there alone. That was my life until this truth was revealed.

God's love looked beyond our continual tendancy to do this and provided a sure salvation gained by His Son not our works of righteousness OR our intellect or percieved spirituality. His provision not only saves the soul and gives a man eternal life, but He also provided us with light to live in the here and now. He is interested in a relationship with us where we CAN comprehend His love that goes beyond our feeble understanding. When we at times do not "get" what He is doing in our lives.,in this world,. We will be able to - by faith - know He is able to do all things well and in His time. This allows us to wait in faith not only wait, but be ok with waiting knowing He has something good coming. We wait in joyful anticipation as we wait in faith.

We do not have to fully understand God's ways in order to have faith in Him. And we cannot have faith in our emotions or works because they will always lead us astray when they are not directed by God's Holy Spirit. That is why it is a vital issue for us christians to KNOW our salvation is layed on HIM and not us. It sets us up for a proper way to see how He works in our sanctification and that -all too- confusing question of "how do I know what is God's will and what is mine??"

We will know because He will show us. Faith says that the answer is on it's way even though I can't see it yet, I know it's coming.

 

[Jabberjaw]

You aren't arguing that salvation is works based, are you? Re-read what I wrote. You run into a contradiction, otherwise.
What does it mean by "work of faith?" It doesn't mean faith that is of work, it means works that were done in faith or the other possibility, not rejecting the work of faith that was done for them.

John 6:28, 29 ""What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" 29Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

Who does the work? "It is the work of God."

So, we see if we are referencing faith as a work, it is God who does it. Now, we can go along the other lines and say they did faithful works in obedience, but we then realize that it has nothing to do with salvation, but again, is a fruit of salvation.

Simplicity!

John 6:29 (NKJV)
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

So, what do you think "believe in Him" means? :

John 14:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

He said keep all his commandments and he will love you,

John 14:23-24 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. [SUP]24 [/SUP]He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

If you don't keep His commands (all of them) then He will not love you, do you believe Him?

Simplicity!

 

[SeaBass]

Just, "No." It just goes way over your head. You can't seem to get it.

SeaBass let me give you another analogy on top of my previous ones that refute you.

I own a business and I give it to you. As someone who owns the business you will be working in the business. However, if you never go into work, do you still own the business? The answer is "Yes." You would say, "So if I never do the work, do I own the business?" To which the answer is, "Yes."

Not a good enough analogy? Let me think of another.

I give you a car and hand you the keys. Its a gift, it is now yours. You upon the first of the month of next month receive a bill however. Its for a loan payment from the bank, so that the car could be purchased. Now, you have this new nice car, this gift, but you have to pay it off. Is it really a free gift if you have to work to keep it? Wasn't really all that it was cracked up to be, if you have to work for it? The car really isn't yours, not until you fully work to pay it off.

That is how you are treating the Gospel. Jesus says, "I died on the cross for you, all you need to do is believe and you have eternal life."(a free gift, in so much as you did nothing to receive it) So, you confess Jesus Christ. Now, as a Christian you are told that you must do good works to maintain salvation. So you go back to Jesus and say, "Hey! I thought this was a free gift? I'm working for it!" By saying that works are necessary for salvation, you are calling Jesus a liar.

Works are a necessary out-flow of who you now are(a Christian), just as an apple tree necessarily produces apples, as that is what it is. An apple tree. To argue that works are necessary for salvation is a categorization error. Thats like saying apples are necessary for an apple tree to be considered an apple tree. If the tree doesn't bear the apples, it is still an apple tree, its just to the outside world it isn't witnessing itself as an apple tree.

Your argument is silly and illogical, also arbitrary.

These analogies might not be the best, as I was just pondering them, but regardless you can't get past the fact of my last point in The Simplicity of The Gospel.

A. Faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation
B. Salvation leads to (possible) works
c. Therefore works are necessary for salvation. (incorrect)

That is your argument, but if that is the case, then you can't move past premise A, without first addressing works.
​

There is no way of working around it, the argument fails as C negates what has been said in A. So start over, try again. Your argument doesnt work.

Your analogy does not work for it is not the same as Christ's free gift of everlasting life which He said to LABOUR for, Jn 6:27.


When you gave me the business for free, you did not attach any conditions on it for me. Yet when Jesus offers everlasting life for free He DOES attach conditions upon it for me, for I cannot have this free gift without meeting the conditions of belief, Jn 8:24; repentance, Lk 13:3,5; confession Mt 10:32,33 or submitting to baptism, Mk 16:16.
Are you are willing to argue that the unbeliever, the impenitent, the denier of Christ, the one still lost in his unremitted, unforgiven sins can be saved?


You then post "I give you a car and hand you the keys. Its a gift, it is now yours. You upon the first of the month of next month receive a bill however."

The car was not a free gift offered to me like salvation is a free gift offered to me. Christ paid my price for savlation so all I can do is receive His free gift and meet those conditions He has attached to His free gift. With your NON-free gift I am the one having to pay the price. Your analogy here is way off.

[If I owe the bank, then the car was not yours to give away to me, it belonged to the bank]

And then you post this gem "Works are a necessary out-flow of who you now are(a Christian)

So now you are proving MY point that one cannot be saved without doing those NECESSARY (your word) WORKS.

Hey, are you EARNING your savlation with those NECESSARY works? Are you MAINTAINING your salvation with those NECESSARY works?

 

[kennethcadwell]

The issue I am raising in this thread is can the Christian NOT strive to be perfect yet still expect to be saved?

I have not yet seen a single person on this thread who has said they are trying to earn salvation. Please see my post #286, did she earn the car?

You post "That is all false teaching, cause the bible clearly says you can fall away, but then can repent and come back"


I agree with this!!!

But again, the issue I am raising here can the Christian NOT do the work of repentnace and still be saved?

[Remember that the "faith only" proponents on here are saying he can be saved without the work of repentance, be saved while impenitent. If he did the work of repentance he is trying to EARN his salvation]

Well all I can say about that is this, if you do not repent of your sins are you truly sorry for what you did. God knows the heart and if you are truly sorry for what you did, or you are in a since just spitting in His face and don't care about what He says. We think of this only from our ( one ) point of view. Salvation is a free gift, but do we automatically get it with out doing nothing....no. If that was the case non-believers would be saved to. You need to repent of your sins, and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and be baptized in His name. Those three things were not made void by Him dying on the cross. Works from here on do not determine your salvation, for you all ready have it. You can however turn your back on God and fall away ( hence lose salvation ).

 

[Staystrong]

One single act of righteousness can save you. Think about one of the thieves jesus saved on the cross. But also revelations says we,will be judged according to our works. Basic line is live a righteous life

 

[SeaBass]

Yet another thing that went over your head. lol

Oh, heres another analogy for you.

This is like saying that in order to be an Olympian, one must enter the race. So, therefore, if you don't enter the race, you are therefore not an Olympian. However, an Olympian by the very definition will enter the race, to argue such a thing is arbitrary. Its like "No duh." But to say that an Olympian isn't an Olympian if he doesn't enter the race, is not true. He just hasn't shown he is an Olympian. So, is entering the race necessary to prove he is an Olympian? Yes! The question is, to prove to whom? To God or men? God knows hes an Olympian he doesn't need to prove it to God, but men may not be aware of that he is an Olympian therefore the race is a witness to the fact he is an Olympian.

Maybe this one is better than the other two. Not sure.

Paul may have had the Olympics in mind when he wrote "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain."

The Hebrew writer said, Heb 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

How can one win the race of salvation if he never runs(works) in it?

 

[SeaBass]

Dear SeaBass.., I LOVE that you wrote that because it is the very thing God insists upon and it is the very thing we just cannot accept.

that God does everything while man sits and does nothing. God never made "doing nothing" a condition on His free gift of salvation


Yes, it is the very thing we must do to have the free gift. Man in his pride of life, in his idea he is actually someone when he is no one, cannot fathom he needs God's provision to THIS degree.

If we believe we had anything to do with attaining this wonderful gift than we will also have some idea that we can also mis place it or misunderstand it. That is why so many christians are lacking the security of their salvation and are tormented in their minds about it.

They can have recieved the gift of eternal life but not experience the joy and fruits of it because they are trying to be righteous over and over again when it has already been imputed to them. If we don't know what we have we cannot act on it. You can be locked in a room and have the key in your pocket but never get out and starve in there alone. That was my life until this truth was revealed.

God's love looked beyond our continual tendancy to do this and provided a sure salvation gained by His Son not our works of righteousness OR our intellect or percieved spirituality. His provision not only saves the soul and gives a man eternal life, but He also provided us with light to live in the here and now. He is interested in a relationship with us where we CAN comprehend His love that goes beyond our feeble understanding. When we at times do not "get" what He is doing in our lives.,in this world,. We will be able to - by faith - know He is able to do all things well and in His time. This allows us to wait in faith not only wait, but be ok with waiting knowing He has something good coming. We wait in joyful anticipation as we wait in faith.

We do not have to fully understand God's ways in order to have faith in Him. And we cannot have faith in our emotions or works because they will always lead us astray when they are not directed by God's Holy Spirit. That is why it is a vital issue for us christians to KNOW our salvation is layed on HIM and not us. It sets us up for a proper way to see how He works in our sanctification and that -all too- confusing question of "how do I know what is God's will and what is mine??"

We will know because He will show us. Faith says that the answer is on it's way even though I can't see it yet, I know it's coming.

Show me the verse where God says "do nothing and thou shalt be saved"?

And my question was:

Even though you did the works of coming to my office to get the title and keys and went to the dealer to get the car, did you tell your friend the truth when you told her you earned that car I gave you for free?

 

[SeaBass]

Well all I can say about that is this, if you do not repent of your sins are you truly sorry for what you did. God knows the heart and if you are truly sorry for what you did, or you are in a since just spitting in His face and don't care about what He says. We think of this only from our ( one ) point of view. Salvation is a free gift, but do we automatically get it with out doing nothing....no. If that was the case non-believers would be saved to. You need to repent of your sins, and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and be baptized in His name. Those three things were not made void by Him dying on the cross. Works from here on do not determine your salvation, for you all ready have it. You can however turn your back on God and fall away ( hence lose salvation ).

So do you agree that being saved is CONDITIONAL upon the WORK of repenting?

 

[SeaBass]

One single act of righteousness can save you. Think about one of the thieves jesus saved on the cross. But also revelations says we,will be judged according to our works. Basic line is live a righteous life

The thief is not an example of NT salvation. He lived and died under the OT law.

 

[BenFTW]

So you agree that it is not possible for a man to be saved while NEVER do ANY TYPE of work at all in his entire life.

I re-read your question and just realized something, while everything I wrote down below still applies, I have a point to make beforehand. Your question needs to be reworded because as it is now, it cannot be answered accurately as you have defined incorrectly a saved man. Your question collapses on its own without needing to be answered, as a saved Christian will produce good works(if given the opportunity). To ask whether a Christian can be saved without good works is to ask whether a Gold Medalist can be one without having entered the Olympics. Its, as I state below, a stupid question and more so, in that of making an argument out of it. You are offering a false definition of a saved Christian to then argue against said false definition (given they have a life time to bear fruit).
--------------------------------------------
I must say, that is one of the stupidest arguments I have ever heard and more so, that it is being said to try and argue a point of works being necessary. The answer to that question, and I say this with hesitating cause it might go to your head, is "Yes." HOWEVER, you are using a half truth. By the very definition of what a Christian is, it entails a good work of some kind will happen(in their life time) due to how God changes our nature and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who gives us the gifts of the Holy Spirit. One of which is the fruit of LOVE and love will cause us to do something that is considered to be a good work.

See now, a work of some kind WILL happen, but its not of ourselves but out of what God makes us and produces in us (the fruits). This is not to say, "See! Works are necessary! Ha! Gotcha!" On the contrary, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be saved and not yield fruit, because by being saved we are born-again, receiving a new nature, and of course, the fruits of the Spirit. To argue that works are then necessary for salvation is to deny death bed confessions, someone who had the opportunity to help someone and didn't, and the thief on the cross, from receiving salvation. You can't argue against the thief by saying he was under OT Law, because he confessed Christ believing what He would do (accomplish) just as the many people saved from Sheol were saved in those three days Christ was dead, until His resurrection because of Christ (and the promise).

Do you see how stupid such an argument is? A musician will play an instrument, therefore if he doesn't play an instrument he isn't a musician. No duh... good job Sherlock! A Christian will produce some kind of good works, but the works didnt give him salvation and they neither maintain his salvation.

As it says on one site: Think of it this way. If it was your birthday and a friend came and gave you a gift , something that you really wanted you'd be very thankful. but what if you pulled out your wallet and said let me pay you for your gift. That would be a real insult to him. He gave it to you out of love not asking for anything in return

In 1 Corinthians 3:15 it tells us of a man whose works are all burned yet he still has salvation.

So to answer your question, of whether works are necessary for salvation. NO they aren't, because in scripture we have an example of a man being left with no work standing and he is still saved! You can't get past that, he had no works standing, they were of no merit, yet he was still saved!

1 Corinthians 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Salvation is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. (no works necessary) Works do not maintain that salvation, once one has it, as is clearly seen in 1 Corinthians 3:15.

/End of topic

 

[BenFTW]

I want to thank you SeaBass for your stubborness because it led me to the answer for people who believe in maintaining salvation. Thanks!

 

[BenFTW]

So you agree that it is not possible for a man to be saved while NEVER do ANY TYPE of work at all in his entire life.

In my post before, this is the word I was looking for to describe your question. Your question is a false dichotomy.

A false dichotomy is typically used in an argument to force your opponent into an extreme position -- by making the assumption that there are only two positions.Examples:

• "If you want better public schools, you have to raise taxes. If you don't want to raise taxes, you can't have better schools." - A third alternative is that you could spend the existing tax money more efficiently.
• "You're either part of the solution or part of the problem." - No room for innocent bystanders here.
• "If you're not with us, you're against us." - Being neutral is not an option.

 

[JaumeJ]

How could "faith that saves is not alone" be a contradiction to "faith alone saves?" Anyone who is saved is saved by faith alone, but the gratitude and complete joy that comes with salvation will not allow anyone who is saved not to act as though they are saved. Worship is works, prayer is works, waiting for the Lord is works, and so on down the line. There are those who teach, those who edify, those who exhort, those with gifts of healing and much more. Works is not some kind of billboard to God, works are small notes written on our hearts, and He reads them all.

No one who is truly saved does no works, otherwise his salvation is a dilusion. Just because it is only God Who knows or sees the works does not mean a brother or sister is not constantly working for the Lord. Let us edify with beautiful, true thoughts in our posting.

"Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone"

- John Calvin

A contradicting statement if there ever was one.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yup! We need to be lights for others. If no one will hear God does see that we tried.
We do works for His glory. We tell everyone we know about God and we pray people will come around.
But if someone doesn't want to believe.. constantly pushing them with what we believe isn't goin to help.

Presley: Someone said that all the darkness of the world cannot extinguish the light of one match...

Blessings.

 

[PennEd]

Show me the verse where God says "do nothing and thou shalt be saved"?

And my question was:

Even though you did the works of coming to my office to get the title and keys and went to the dealer to get the car, did you tell your friend the truth when you told her you earned that car I gave you for free?

Your question has been answered many times in this thread. Why do you keep asking it and refuse to acknowledge the answer?

THE VERSES YOU ASK FOR ARE:

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
COUPLED WITH:
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN ACCEPTING JESUS, AND EVEN THE FAITH IS NOT A WORK BY YOU, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD.

ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS TO REFINE YOUR HEART WHICH WILL RESULT IN GOOD WORKS.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

So you agree that it is not possible for a man to be saved while NEVER do ANY TYPE of work at all in his entire life.

Hi SeaBass
were you able to understand what i wrote,the reason i ask is because my answer is there

For salvation,i believe faith only is required.After salvation,you will do good works,and if you do not then i don't think you received salvation.

 

[wit2Christlv]

I used to be one of those people that accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior and thats kind of where it stopped. I lived how I wanted and thought that was ok. But I was wrong. I was a lukewarm Christian and God put that conviction in my heart. People need to know were Christians by our actions, not just our words. We must always walk in love and correct with love. Pray to God for correction and to guide you in your walk with Christ. Faith without works is dead, and salvation is a gift from God that cannot be earned. Both work hand in hand. God bless

 

[chubbena]

Your question has been answered many times in this thread. Why do you keep asking it and refuse to acknowledge the answer?

THE VERSES YOU ASK FOR ARE:

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
COUPLED WITH:
Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

YOU ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH IN ACCEPTING JESUS, AND EVEN THE FAITH IS NOT A WORK BY YOU, IT IS A GIFT FROM GOD.

ONCE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED THE HOLY SPIRIT WORKS TO REFINE YOUR HEART WHICH WILL RESULT IN GOOD WORKS.

The reason many left the institutional church because they are considered educable. There are good questions and good answers amongst stupid posts like mine here. If we are truly spiritual, work would be like breathing.

 

[p_rehbein]

He did the "work.............."




It's a shame so many don't believe.............sigh........