Works Determine Whether you go to Heaven or Hell

[eternally-gratefull]

If I may add.

Works do not have a thing to do with whether someone will get to heaven or not. Many people do works who will never see heaven, and have never known God.

Faith is what determines whether one goes to heaven or not.

Faith also determins what type of work one will do.

Those of true faith will have a loving outgoing no self focused works of God.

Those of false faith, but a mere belief, will have either:

1. No works (licentious)
2. Works based on self not others (legalistic or religious faith)

 

[BenFTW]

Speaking of context. You forgot the colon that is right after James says works: Then James talks about himself.
James 2:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Different versions of the bible can't agree when James was finished speaking but as I read on a site, there is good reason to believe that James' quote ends once he started to say, "But wilt thou know, O vain man,".

From the site: Let me show you what they did. Flip over to 1 Corinthians 15:35-36.“But someone will say, ‘How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?’ Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.”

Paul introduces this objector with the phrase “But someone will say.” This phrase is like saying “quote.” And then, after he is done quoting the objector, Paul uses a somewhat derogatory phrase to begin his rebuttal. He says, “Foolish one…” That phrase is like saying, “unquote.”We see the same thing in Romans 9:19-20.“You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?’ But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?”

So once again, Paul introduces this objector with the phrase, “You will say to me then.” This is followed by the open quote. And then, Paul indicates the end of the objectors comments by using a derogatory phrase. He says in verse 20, “But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?” Do you see how they get around not having quotation marks? They introduce the objector with the phrase, “But someone will say” and then they conclude the objection with a somewhat derogatory phrase. Now, let’s see if James uses this same structure back in James 2.

In James 2:18, we read But someone will say. So James does open the quote in the normal way by introducing the objector. But then where does the objection end? Well, the NKJV puts it half way through verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there. The NAS takes it a bit further and carries the quote all the way to the end of verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there either. Where is the derogatory phrase? Where should the end quote be? Look at James 2:20. But do you want to know, O foolish man,…

James 2:20 is where James begins to respond to his objector.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Different versions of the bible can't agree when James was finished speaking but as I read on a site, there is good reason to believe that James' quote ends once he started to say, "But wilt thou know, O vain man,".

From the site: Let me show you what they did. Flip over to 1 Corinthians 15:35-36.“But someone will say, ‘How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?’ Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.”

Paul introduces this objector with the phrase “But someone will say.” This phrase is like saying “quote.” And then, after he is done quoting the objector, Paul uses a somewhat derogatory phrase to begin his rebuttal. He says, “Foolish one…” That phrase is like saying, “unquote.”We see the same thing in Romans 9:19-20.“You will say to me then, ‘Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?’ But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?”

So once again, Paul introduces this objector with the phrase, “You will say to me then.” This is followed by the open quote. And then, Paul indicates the end of the objectors comments by using a derogatory phrase. He says in verse 20, “But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God?” Do you see how they get around not having quotation marks? They introduce the objector with the phrase, “But someone will say” and then they conclude the objection with a somewhat derogatory phrase. Now, let’s see if James uses this same structure back in James 2.

In James 2:18, we read But someone will say. So James does open the quote in the normal way by introducing the objector. But then where does the objection end? Well, the NKJV puts it half way through verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there. The NAS takes it a bit further and carries the quote all the way to the end of verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there either. Where is the derogatory phrase? Where should the end quote be? Look at James 2:20. But do you want to know, O foolish man,…

James 2:20 is where James begins to respond to his objector.

There was no commas and stuff in the origional. Men try to figure out where they should go. Much like where to put verse and chapter breaks. Which sometimes even they are in bad spots.

The thing with james is he is showing us to test out faith (the context) and speaking to people who were hearers and not doers of the word (chapter 1).

When we test our faith, If we have ZERO works (thus the word No Works) can we say we really have faith? And if we do not have true faith. Can that faith save us?

He asks a simple question which we all need to ask ourselves.

Do I have mere belief, or a real assurance (faith) In Christ?

 

[just-me]

Different versions of the bible can't agree when James was finished speaking but as I read on a site, there is good reason to believe that James' quote ends once he started to say, "But wilt thou know, O vain man,".

From the site: Let me show you what they did. Flip over to 1 Corinthians 15:35-36.“But someone will say, ‘How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?’ Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.”

In James 2:18, we read But someone will say. So James does open the quote in the normal way by introducing the objector. But then where does the objection end? Well, the NKJV puts it half way through verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there. The NAS takes it a bit further and carries the quote all the way to the end of verse 18. But there is no derogatory phrase there either. Where is the derogatory phrase? Where should the end quote be? Look at James 2:20. But do you want to know, O foolish man,…

James 2:20 is where James begins to respond to his objector.

As you can see my version is KJV. I don't have a version of the Bible that exempts the words you suggest. In context I present the rest of the chapter. I accept it even if you don't

James 2:21-26 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[paulsfam4]

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As you can see my version is KJV. I don't have a version of the Bible that exempts the words you suggest. In context I present the rest of the chapter. I accept it even if you don't

James 2:21-26 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And how many people will be saved with a "dead faith"

Then we must ask ourselves.

If ZERO works (which is what the word without means) proves to ourselves, that our faith was dead.

How many works would prove our faith was alive?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh?

Amen!

Some people just can;t get out of the mindset that Jesus paid the price of redemption in full. And he has ETERNALLY redeemed those who have come to him.

 

[just-me]

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [1] the flesh?

Works don't produce faith, faith produces works.

Galatians 3:2-5 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[BenFTW]

As you can see my version is KJV. I don't have a version of the Bible that exempts the words you suggest. In context I present the rest of the chapter. I accept it even if you don't

James 2:21-26 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

A body without a spirit, is what? Useless, right? It may be dead, but it isn't non-existent, the body still exists. In the same way, faith without works is dead (useless), however the faith still exists! In what way is faith useless? What is James talking about? He is talking about when Christians are judged on the mercy seat of Christ. When we are judged, faith is useless is determining our reward, because the determining of our reward is based upon works! Our salvation isn't at risk, our rewards are!

[h=3]1 Corinthians 3:11-15[/h]King James Version (KJV)

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As you can clearly see, even if the man's works are all burnt up, he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. So, I repeat works are not necessary for salvation, and once one has salvation, they don't maintain it either. See 1 Corinthians 3:15 for an example of a man whos work was burned up, yet he was still saved!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A body without a spirit, is what? Useless, right? It may be dead, but it isn't non-existent, the body still exists. In the same way, faith without works is dead (useless), however the faith still exists! In what way is faith useless? What is James talking about? He is talking about when Christians are judged on the mercy seat of Christ. When we are judged, faith is useless is determining our reward, because the determining of our reward is based upon works! Our salvation isn't at risk, our rewards are!

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As you can clearly see, even if the man's works are all burnt up, he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. So, I repeat works are not necessary for salvation, and once one has salvation, they don't maintain it either. See 1 Corinthians 3:15 for an example of a man whos work was burned up, yet he was still saved!

I see where you are going.

Are you sure this is what James is talking about. or is he talking about the licentious person. Who are hearers and not doers. Who have a belief (even demons believe and tremble) but act more like the world in the name of Christ. And not showing the works which proceeds from faith?

And saying quite plainly.

If you say you have faith, but have no (zero zip nada) works. Can your faith (does it have the ability or power) to save you?

Paul said we are saved by faith apart from works. and those saved will do the works God created them to do (eph 2: 8-10) James in my mind is agreeing with him. If we do not see the works God created us to do. Then were we truly saved by the faith of Eph 2: 8-9.? Or do we have mere belief, Which will never save anyone.

 

[BenFTW]

I see where you are going.

Are you sure this is what James is talking about. or is he talking about the licentious person. Who are hearers and not doers. Who have a belief (even demons believe and tremble) but act more like the world in the name of Christ. And not showing the works which proceeds from faith?

And saying quite plainly.

If you say you have faith, but have no (zero zip nada) works. Can your faith (does it have the ability or power) to save you?

Paul said we are saved by faith apart from works. and those saved will do the works God created them to do (eph 2: 8-10) James in my mind is agreeing with him. If we do not see the works God created us to do. Then were we truly saved by the faith of Eph 2: 8-9.? Or do we have mere belief, Which will never save anyone.

Look at James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. These verses are talking about some sort of judgment that believers will face. Similarly, James 3:1 brings out the same concept of judgment for Christian teachers. My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

This obviously isn't in reference to salvation, but judgement based upon being "judged by the law of liberty." Your use of "even the demons believe" is also out of place. I will cite a site:

First of all, they are not quoting James, but an objector to James. That’s like quoting Satan when he tempts Christ and then calling it truth. If you are going to quote Scripture, quote someone teaching the truth, rather than someone who is objecting to the truth. But even beyond this, what is it the demons believe here? They believe that God is one. That God is unified. Now since when is that a belief that has ever given anybody eternal life? All Jews believe that God is One. All Muslims believe that God is One. But how many Jews and Muslims have eternal life because they believe that God is One?

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

Their belief isn't in Jesus Christ, as it is for believers, but just in the simple fact that God is one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Look at James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. These verses are talking about some sort of judgment that believers will face. Similarly, James 3:1 brings out the same concept of judgment for Christian teachers. My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

I see verses 8 and on speaking to people who think they are made righteous by the law. Saying if we break even one of the least, we are found guilty of the whole law. He is trying to take our mind of the law as a means of being righteous.

vs 14 is the main subject and opening statement of the next subject.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

In other words. What can be gained (profit) by someone saying they have faith In God. So yes, I am going to heaven. I do not have to show any works. I am saved by faith alone (the licentious attitude) Can that faith save him? (He is speaking of eternal salvation here.)

This obviously isn't in reference to salvation, but judgement based upon being "judged by the law of liberty." Your use of "even the demons believe" is also out of place. I will cite a site:

well James 3 is a change of subject. James is now talking to people who have true faith. Not the dead faith spoken of in chapter 2: 8 on..

He ends 2 with a fact.

The body without the spirit is dead (spiritually speaking, the body has no life without the spirit)
So if faith without works (Spiritually speaking. Faith has no life if it is not followed up by works)

If one has a dead faith, They do not have the spirit. If they do not have the spirit. Their body is still dead.

First of all, they are not quoting James, but an objector to James. That’s like quoting Satan when he tempts Christ and then calling it truth. If you are going to quote Scripture, quote someone teaching the truth, rather than someone who is objecting to the truth. But even beyond this, what is it the demons believe here? They believe that God is one. That God is unified. Now since when is that a belief that has ever given anybody eternal life? All Jews believe that God is One. All Muslims believe that God is One. But how many Jews and Muslims have eternal life because they believe that God is One?

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

Their belief isn't in Jesus Christ, as it is for believers, but just in the simple fact that God is one.

Or they merely believe that jesus was a real person. and maybe even believed he died on the cross.

There problem is. Mere belief will not save anyone. it takes true faith. James is not saying we are justified by works. he would be contradicting paul. He is saying we are justified by faith (real) which is more than mere belief, Proven by the fact. if we have true faith. We will show true works.

 

[BenFTW]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
I see verses 8 and on speaking to people who think they are made righteous by the law. Saying if we break even one of the least, we are found guilty of the whole law. He is trying to take our mind of the law as a means of being righteous.

vs 14 is the main subject and opening statement of the next subject.

[/SIZE][SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

In other words. What can be gained (profit) by someone saying they have faith In God. So yes, I am going to heaven. I do not have to show any works. I am saved by faith alone (the licentious attitude) Can that faith save him? (He is speaking of eternal salvation here.)



well James 3 is a change of subject. James is now talking to people who have true faith. Not the dead faith spoken of in chapter 2: 8 on..

He ends 2 with a fact.

The body without the spirit is dead (spiritually speaking, the body has no life without the spirit)
So if faith without works (Spiritually speaking. Faith has no life if it is not followed up by works)

If one has a dead faith, They do not have the spirit. If they do not have the spirit. Their body is still dead.



Or they merely believe that jesus was a real person. and maybe even believed he died on the cross.

There problem is. Mere belief will not save anyone. it takes true faith. James is not saying we are justified by works. he would be contradicting paul. He is saying we are justified by faith (real) which is more than mere belief, Proven by the fact. if we have true faith. We will show true works.

I'm sorry if its like I'm beating a dead horse, but I think you've interpreted James incorrectly. If you have time, I suggest you read this link I've shared with others on here about James.

James 2:14-26 - Faith Without Works is Dead? | Till He Comes

I will add, like it says in the article, James asks, "What profit?" So, we see it doesnt have to do with salvation, but profits, in what way is it beneficial? Again, look to the judgement that is on the mercy seat of Christ. Faith wont be profitable, but works will, in regards to reward.

 

[crossnote]

This whole thread is rather confusing (let alone take into account it's title).
If faith is a work i.e. something we do, then voila, you have your work (faith) included in your salvation.
If faith is a gift, then every thing which flows from faith is a result of grace and not our works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm sorry if its like I'm beating a dead horse, but I think you've interpreted James incorrectly. If you have time, I suggest you read this link I've shared with others on here about James.

James 2:14-26 - Faith Without Works is Dead? | Till He Comes

I have seen it, and read some of your quotes from it.

And I do not agree with it at all.

I will add, like it says in the article, James asks, "What profit?" So, we see it doesnt have to do with salvation, but profits, in what way is it beneficial? Again, look to the judgement that is on the mercy seat of Christ. Faith wont be profitable, but works will, in regards to reward.

No. I disagree,, what good is it to a man if he says he has faith by has no work. CAN IT SAVE HIM??

the bema seat judgment has nothing to do with ones salvation. so it can not be speaking of that event.

We also have to use the terms correctly

No work. equals zero work. He is not speaking about some works. Alot of works. or little works. He is talking about no works whatsoever, zero zip nada.

he is also talking about a dead faith. A dead faith has no life. zero zip nada. Can that faith save him.

There is your starting point. We must start here.

 

[BenFTW]

I have seen it, and read some of your quotes from it.

And I do not agree with it at all.



No. I disagree,, what good is it to a man if he says he has faith by has no work. CAN IT SAVE HIM??

the bema seat judgment has nothing to do with ones salvation. so it can not be speaking of that event.

We also have to use the terms correctly

No work. equals zero work. He is not speaking about some works. Alot of works. or little works. He is talking about no works whatsoever, zero zip nada.

he is also talking about a dead faith. A dead faith has no life. zero zip nada. Can that faith save him.

There is your starting point. We must start here.

He answers that in the article. You must define terms otherwise it will be easily misunderstood.

Save there means to be "delivered", not salvation. You have to look at context. What is he being delivered from? Also, we may just have to agree to disagree otherwise this will be never-ending. If you don't agree with the article, then nothing else needs to be said.

From the article: Can faith save him?This is a negative rhetorical question in the Greek which means that the implied answer is an emphatic no. Can faith save him? No, of course not. Another way of translating it that brings this out could be, “Faith cannot save him, can it?”

Remember Ephesians 2:8-9? We read there, “by grace you are saved through faith.” In Ephesians 2, we read that we are saved by faith. But here, James says that faith cannot save. So are these two verses in contradiction? No they are not. Why not? Because of the definition of the word “save.” The word “save” is defined as “to deliver” and must always be understood in context.
It does not mean to be delivered or saved from hell and given eternal life unless the context indicates that this is the meaning. In Ephesians 2, the context tells us that our salvation, our deliverance is from sin and the eternal consequences of sin. So Ephesians 2 is talking about being delivered from sin.

But is that what James 2 is talking about? No, not even close. The context tells us what we are saved, or delivered from. Look at James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. These verses are talking about some sort of judgment that believers will face. Similarly, James 3:1 brings out the same concept of judgment for Christian teachers. My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

So you see, James brackets the passage we are considering with this theme of a judgment that Christians will face. And it apparently is a judgment based on our works. There is only one judgment of this sort in the Bible. In fact, though there are several different times and forms of judgment in the Bible, the only one Christians will face is the judgment seat of Christ, sometimes called the Bema. It is there that we will be judged according to our works done in the body, whether good or evil (2 Cor. 5:10). It is there that reward is handed out and eternal privileges are distributed. Jesus tells frequent parables about this. Paul talks about it everywhere.

And it is what James has in mind right here. He says that when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ, although we will have the wonderful gift of eternal life, the issue that day will be what you did in this life with the gifts and talents and abilities God gave you. “In that day,” James says, “faith alone will not profit.” These new Christians have asked, “What role does works play?” and James has answered, “Before the judgment seat of Christ, it is works that will be profitable.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He answers that in the article. You must define terms otherwise it will be easily misunderstood.

Save there means to be "delivered", not salvation. You have to look at context. What is he being delivered from? Also, we may just have to agree to disagree otherwise this will be never-ending. If you don't agree with the article, then nothing else needs to be said.

I don't.

And yes it does mean delivered.

I was delievered from the very law he spoke of in the verses previous to this statement. (if you break even the least of the commandments, you are guilty of all. What is the resulting judgment? Condemnation.

We must be delievered from this condemnation (saved)

 

[doseofreality]

This whole thread is rather confusing (let alone take into account it's title).
If faith is a work i.e. something we do, then voila, you have your work (faith) included in your salvation.
If faith is a gift, then every thing which flows from faith is a result of grace and not our works.

haha thanks for summarizing.
Ok there is a distinction between what we see and doctrinally what may be what really is going on.

If faith is a gift then those to be saved are already saved no matter what they do. Yet because of their gift of faith they will do the things attributed to salvation.

Many may do the same things yet not have this gift of faith, thus not really be saved.

From God's point of view then salvation is arbitrary, He gives to whom He wills.
From our point of view, salvation is based on acts of faith... belief, repentance, obedience, etc.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

haha thanks for summarizing.
Ok there is a distinction between what we see and doctrinally what may be what really is going on.

If faith is a gift then those to be saved are already saved no matter what they do. Yet because of their gift of faith they will do the things attributed to salvation.

Many may do the same things yet not have this gift of faith, thus not really be saved.

From God's point of view then salvation is arbitrary, He gives to whom He wills.
From our point of view, salvation is based on acts of faith... belief, repentance, obedience, etc.

I disagree.

From Gods point of view.

He says whoever calls on his name will be saved, Whoever places their faith in him will be saved. Whoever does not believe in him will not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him.

If man places works into the equation. they are seeing mans view. and not gods view. Man must aline with Gods view in order for salvation to take place.

 

[BenFTW]

I disagree.

From Gods point of view.

He says whoever calls on his name will be saved, Whoever places their faith in him will be saved. Whoever does not believe in him will not see life, but the wrath of God abides in him.

If man places works into the equation. they are seeing mans view. and not gods view. Man must aline with Gods view in order for salvation to take place.

I don't see how we agree on this but disagree on James. lol We agree on so much it seems.