Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[SeaBass]

I've come across a scripture that says it all. (JGIG this point had to be said)

Romans 4:4 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

I had an "Aha! moment" when I read that verse. To those who say good works maintain their salvation, when they stand before God they are basically saying that God owes(debt) them salvation. If you have to work to maintain your salvation, it is no longer grace, but debt. You've done your deeds and now its time for your payment. You are basically earning your salvation by having to do good works to maintain it, which is not grace, but debt because, based on their view, if you don't do the works you aren't saved. That means that you must do the works to be saved, which entails that God owes you salvation based upon your works, which again, is not grace but debt. Lets look at these verses, for clarity.

" . . . And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. [SUP]4[/SUP] Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. [SUP]5[/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:3-5).

Can you stand before God and point to your good deeds and say that you maintained your salvation, and so now God owes you your due? It is no longer grace, but debt! This goes even to those who say baptism is necessary for salvation, because they are basing their salvation on the work of baptism, rather than on the work of Christ. They will stand before God and say, "I've been baptized, now give me my salvation" and yet it isn't water baptism that saves, it is Christ! Water baptism is a command, but it isn't what saves us. And to add such a work upon accepting Christ for salvation is to make God a debtor to man. "I've done this act, and it has given me salvation. Without this act, none have salvation. Therefore, this act is done and so with this act salvation is due." But as we all know, we are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not of any works!

The works of Rom 4:4 that make ones reward of debt and not of grace are works of merit. If you could keep God's law perfectly thereby be perfectly sinless then you would not need grace to be saved for salvation would then be something owed you.

Abraham was not one that was perfectly sinless so he did not/could not do works of merit to try and make his reward of debt but he had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8 > "By faith Abraham...obeyed..."



So Paul was not excluding obedient works in Rom 4:4. That idea totally contradicts what Paul said in Rom 6 about "obedience unto righteousness" as Abraham had, and how the Romans obeyed from the heart then they were freed from sin (justified) verses 17,18.

 

[SeaBass]

"I will buy you a new car, if you graduate high school", says the parent to the son. Graduating high school is the condition upon the so called "gift." But, it is no longer a gift if you have to work for it, it is a reward. As I stated above, and will now again do so, Romans 4:4.

Romans 4:4 - Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The parent owes a car to the son who graduated high school; therefore, the parent is in debt to the son. It is not a free gift with conditions, it is a reward that is earned if certain criteria is met.

Free gifts can come with conditions. Again, did Naaman earn his own cleasning when he wnet and dipped 7 times in the reiver or was healing by grace?



In my example, when I gave the car away for free up front. The condition I attached to my free gift was she had to do the work of coming to my office and get the title and keys, did that work earn her that free car? No.

 

[SeaBass]

Actually, in Acts 2, those who gladly received his word were baptised (Acts 2.41). They showed they already believed and had had dealings with the Lord by faith, when they submitted to the outward symbol. The symbol itself did not save.

You posted "those who gladly received his word were baptised" Conversely those that did not gladly receive Peter's gospel message rejected being baptized. So the implication is one has not recevied the gospel word until they have been baptized, or in other words, rejecting baptism is the same as rejecting the gospel message.

 

[cfultz3]

The works of Rom 4:4 that make ones reward of debt and not of grace are works of merit. If you could keep God's law perfectly thereby be perfectly sinless then you would not need grace to be saved for salvation would then be something owed you.

Abraham was not one that was perfectly sinless so he did not/could not do works of merit to try and make his reward of debt but he had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8 > "By faith Abraham...obeyed..."



So Paul was not excluding obedient works in Rom 4:4. That idea totally contradicts what Paul said in Rom 6 about "obedience unto righteousness" as Abraham had, and how the Romans obeyed from the heart then they were freed from sin (justified) verses 17,18.

Surely, obedience to the Shepherd on His path is a no-brainier. Only a fallen Hebrew would say that hearkening to Him is not necessary.

You made a good point.

 

[notuptome]

1 Pet 3:21 baptism saves. Baptism saves because God says it does for water baptism is where the blood of Christ washes away sins.

Rev 1:5 "...Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"


Where did Christ shed His blood?

In HIs death, Jn 19:34.


So man must access into the death of Christ where He shed HIs blood.

By no coincidence water baptism is what puts one into the death of Christ..Rom 6:3_5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

God therefore has chosen water baptism as the means by which one is saved, the point where Christ's blood washes away sins.

Your post is complete utter lunacy. You are willfully ignorant of matters regarding the Holy Spirit. You witness against yourself revealing that you resist the truth.

The clearest teaching of water baptism is found in Acts 8:36-39. The eunuch believed and was permitted water baptism. He was saved before he went into the water and was no more saved when he came out than when he went in.

Baptismal regeneration is heretical doctrine. Water cannot save only Gods grace can save. Those saved by grace testify to the wonder of grace. Those who do not so testify are simply have no part in Christ. John 3:19-20 speaks of those who turn from the light because their deeds are evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[SeaBass]

Surely, obedience to the Shepherd on His path is a no-brainier. Only a fallen Hebrew would say that hearkening to Him is not necessary.

You made a good point.

Faith only advocates create serious contradictions within the Roman epistle when they try and get Rom 4:4 to mean Paul was eliminating ALL works.

An issue Paul dealt with seemingly ongoingly was trying to get the Jews to faithfully obey God's NT gospel than try to keep the OT law perfectly and merit savlation....."And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" 1 Sam 15:22 Obeying and hearkening unto the Lord is better than trying to keep the law perfectly for the Jew would always fail in trying to keep the law perfectly. The OT law did not even require faith, Gal 3:12 so the Jews would faithlessly try and keep the law perfectly to try and merit their salvation. In some cases, Rom 10:3 the Jews would replace God's law with their own traditions and think they could be saved by perfectly keeping their own traditions...."went about establishing their own righteousness". And this was the issue Paul was dealing with in Rom 4:1-8. By showing an obedient faith, like that of Abraham and David, is what saves not trying to faithlessly keep God's OT law perfectly.

 

[SeaBass]

Your post is complete utter lunacy. You are willfully ignorant of matters regarding the Holy Spirit. You witness against yourself revealing that you resist the truth.

The clearest teaching of water baptism is found in Acts 8:36-39. The eunuch believed and was permitted water baptism. He was saved before he went into the water and was no more saved when he came out than when he went in.

Baptismal regeneration is heretical doctrine. Water cannot save only Gods grace can save. Those saved by grace testify to the wonder of grace. Those who do not so testify are simply have no part in Christ. John 3:19-20 speaks of those who turn from the light because their deeds are evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sorry, but I backed my "lunacy" up with book, chapter and verses.

Not a verse says the eunuch was saved before he was water baptized, that is your bias saying that.

Peter-----------------------baptism saves
Faith only advocates------baptism does not save

 

[BenFTW]

The works of Rom 4:4 that make ones reward of debt and not of grace are works of merit. If you could keep God's law perfectly thereby be perfectly sinless then you would not need grace to be saved for salvation would then be something owed you.

Abraham was not one that was perfectly sinless so he did not/could not do works of merit to try and make his reward of debt but he had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8 > "By faith Abraham...obeyed..."



So Paul was not excluding obedient works in Rom 4:4. That idea totally contradicts what Paul said in Rom 6 about "obedience unto righteousness" as Abraham had, and how the Romans obeyed from the heart then they were freed from sin (justified) verses 17,18.

Have you not been saying, this whole time, that without good works you will not be saved? Hence, these good works are of merit, in that of your salvation, according to your false doctrine. If lack of good works causes you to lose your salvation, then by definition, they are works of merit.

You are correct this statement is in reference to law, but it is in reference as well to the fact of adding works upon grace. About being "perfected in the flesh." Also, you are mixing two events in the life of Abraham. First he was deemed righteous by God because he believed what the Lord told him. The second event is with sacrificing his son, Issac. The second has to do with justification, not by God but by men.

Paul would tell you the same thing we've been telling you. "Obedient works" don't maintain your salvation. Your salvation is dependent upon Jesus' work. Re-read what I wrote, it may hit you the second time through. If you have to maintain your salvation through good works, then salvation isn't a free gift, it is a reward due. Not of grace, but debt. Jesus did it all, rest in His finished work.

 

[cfultz3]

........"And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams" 1 Sam 15:22......By showing an obedient faith, like that of Abraham and David, is what saves not trying to faithlessly keep God's OT law perfectly.

True, and I am sure most all here will agree that it is obedient faith which the Lord delights in. One can only imagine what would had happened if Abraham was not obedient in His faith when he was commanded to sacrifice his son. We Christians are indeed blessed by his hearkening, as much as we are extremely blessed by the obedience of the Son.

 

[JGIG]

Titus 3:5 tells us that we are to undergo a washing of regeneration. Ephesians 5:26 tells us that we are to be washed and cleansed via the new birth. In 2 Corinthians 5:17 we are told, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

How do we get clean, remove our sins?

You don't.

God does.

That's the whole point.

We receive the free gifts of forgiveness, God's Righteousness in Christ, and New Life because of the Resurrection.

Baptism isn't part of the process, it's a public proclamation of one's faith in Christ.

If Baptism is all about you and what you're doing to 'remove your sins', you've missed the Gospel entirely.

I know I said I was done, but sheesh - 'How WE do to get clean, remove our sins?' You are POWERLESS to 'get clean, remove your sins'.

We enter in to what God already did 2000 years ago in Christ by faith. You can do NOTHING to remove one sin. If you could, then Christ would not have needed to do the Work of the Cross (see Gal. 2).

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

But what if a person was baptized, but thought that he had been saved before he was baptized.If that is the case, things are backward, and that person is not right with God. That person has not yet done God’s will, but he can. A lot of people think they are saved, and then later are baptized to be added to a denominational group. But that is not what the Scriptures teach. In 1 Peter 3:21 we are told that baptism “does also now save us, not the washing away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

You're taking 1 Peter 3:21 out of context (big surprise):

19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.​

You do understand that Peter is using water baptism here as a metaphor, right? It's not the water itself that saves anyone, but the resurrection of Christ!

Now for the obvious disconnect of salvation-by-baptism: What of those that Christ made proclamation to? Did they receive Him? When/where was their baptism?

. . . and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.​

The pledge of a clear conscience toward God = a good dunk? No. Baptism is the public proclamation of the pledge - repentance - the change of mind when one ceases to rely on their own works and chooses to rely on and rest in the Work of Christ.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

JGIG, so much for me agreeing, huh? lol There are some things that just need to be said.

Agreed.

It's just so amazing that they work so hard to turn the Good News into the Good News But.

Those are NOT works that God ordained in advance for them to do!

They are preaching a different gospel, which is no Gospel at all.

-JGIG

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yep..

Again, the VERB BAPTIZO (why did the english interpretors not TRANSLATE the word instead of transliterate it? No other ancient text was interpreted to english this way..hint hint) INTO CHRIST.. (NOT WATER)

Why are you guys trying to add to the word of God?

baptizo DOES NOT MEAN WATER!

Baptizo means immerse or dunk, it does not define what one is immersed or dunked in, Peter said water baptism is what saves us (1 Pet 3:20-21), Eph 4:5 says there is one saving baptism, therefore all that are "baptizo" (dunked, immersed) in water are saved (1 Pet 3:20-21)

1 Peter 3:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. [SUP]21 [/SUP]The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[JGIG]

The context of Romans 11:1-6. Paul is saying God has NOT cast away fleshly Israel, but fleshly Israel can obey the gospel and become Christians, as Paul did, and become a spiritual Jew who the true child of God, cf Rom 2:28,29. In verse 4 Paul uses an event in the past that showed who God's people was at that time under the OT..."I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal" Those that OBEYED God by not bowing to Baal was God's people THEN. Yet in verse 5 Paul says "at this present time" God's chosen are those "remnant according to the election of grace" refers to that remnant of Jews that obeyed the gospel in Acts 2:38ff. So back THEN God's people were the ones that obeyed by not bowing to Baal. NOW, at this present time, God's people are those according to the election of grace, ie, those that obey the gospel of Christ.

So "works" in verse 6 refers to works of merit, not obedience to God. Paul's point in Romans is God did not base His choices/promises upon works of merit or fleshly descent. In Rom 2:45 Paul talks about the need to repent, Rom 10:9,10 the need to obey be believing and confessing Christ and Rom 6 the need to be baptized.

You totally ignore faith.

You totally ignore the Work of Christ.

It's all about you.

And it's morbidly entertaining to watch the hoops you have to jump through to complicate an uncomplicated Gospel.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Contending for the faith is a work. You are not trying to earn your salvation by this work are you?

Nope. Trying to help grow you to maturity so that you will be able to tell the Lost about Jesus instead of tell Christians how they're not really saved.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

1 Pet 3:21 baptism saves. Baptism saves because God says it does for water baptism is where the blood of Christ washes away sins.

Rev 1:5 "...Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"


Where did Christ shed His blood?

In HIs death, Jn 19:34.


So man must access into the death of Christ where He shed HIs blood.

By no coincidence water baptism is what puts one into the death of Christ..Rom 6:3_5 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

God therefore has chosen water baptism as the means by which one is saved, the point where Christ's blood washes away sins.

And we come back to the thief on the cross.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

You posted "those who gladly received his word were baptised" Conversely those that did not gladly receive Peter's gospel message rejected being baptized. So the implication is one has not recevied the gospel word until they have been baptized, or in other words, rejecting baptism is the same as rejecting the gospel message.

Do you know any baptized people who aren't saved?

[rhetorical question]

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Your post is complete utter lunacy. You are willfully ignorant of matters regarding the Holy Spirit. You witness against yourself revealing that you resist the truth.

The clearest teaching of water baptism is found in Acts 8:36-39. The eunuch believed and was permitted water baptism. He was saved before he went into the water and was no more saved when he came out than when he went in.

Baptismal regeneration is heretical doctrine. Water cannot save only Gods grace can save. Those saved by grace testify to the wonder of grace. Those who do not so testify are simply have no part in Christ. John 3:19-20 speaks of those who turn from the light because their deeds are evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen.

I like the way one teacher I heard said it:

"You don't bury someone to kill them, you bury someone who's already dead."​

He was speaking of water baptism, there, in that baptism symbolizes our death with Christ and being raised with Him to New Life (Eph. 1, Gal. 2).

-JGIG

 

[faroukfarouk]

You posted "those who gladly received his word were baptised" Conversely those that did not gladly receive Peter's gospel message rejected being baptized. So the implication is one has not recevied the gospel word until they have been baptized, or in other words, rejecting baptism is the same as rejecting the gospel message.

..but it's not the symbol which follows the exercise of faith, that causes the faith to be exercised and the person to be regenerated.

 

[Hoffco]

We have heresy on both sides of this argument. But God only knows who is saved; Both heretics on each side could be saved, I don't know, That is only for God to know. BUT, I control who teaches what in my church; And neither side will teach in my church, nor be a member if they don't agree with my teaching. They would have to leave and find a church that agrees with their heresy. So, if you don't agree with me; Don't try to join my church. You are both are wasting my time. I had an apostolic believer in my church once, as soon as he prayed to "Father Jesus" I invited him to leave and not come back. He also believed in baptismal regeneration. Love to all, Hoffco