The Letter to the Romans...

[Elin]

I gave you Rom 10:3 that speaks of both works: works of merit and works of obedience and
Paul shows how works of merit do not save while obeying God's commandments does save.

Let's take them one at a time.

You still have not explained the difference between works of merit which do not save,
and obeying God's commandments which does save,

nor have you given examples of each.

Please present your response in terms of the NT meaning of "works," which is works of the Law,
and not the obedience of faith, which also does not save.

Deal with this clearly, and then we'll go to the next thing.

 

[Hoffco]

Let's take them one at a time.

You still have not explained the difference between works of merit which do not save,
and obeying God's commandments which does save,

nor have you given examples of each.

Please present your response in terms of the NT meaning of "works," which is works of the Law,
and not the obedience of faith, which also does not save.

Deal with this clearly, and then we'll go to the next thing.

Elin, Your conclusions are not from the Bible. You define things tooo tightly. one sided, You make good works for a Christian as evil deeds, which God hates; this is not godly judgment. You and homwardbound, keep putting our good deeds down as selfish deeds of the old flesh,as sin. I think you have a good motive, but what you do, comes out of your incomplete understanding of the Bible, one sided, taken one truth to the extreme. God loves our good deeds , they come from a new good heart, pleasing to God .Just read the gospel and try to take it all in and let it teach you. Lk. 19 Zacchaeus said, " half of my money I give to the poor" Jesus praised him, "salvation has come to this house" Jesus did not condemn Him , Jesus had just saved him as gave him a new, generous, repentful heart and Jesus praised him for his good deed. This saying in churches today, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" is very evil, condemning he good deeds of saved people. What God calls good, don't call evil. Save persons have "good deeds" , "your fruit is unto holiness, the end is eternal life" Rom.6:22. that God loves, they are fruit of our new heart, which God says, "without being good and humble and kind, like a child, you are lost. this is in the Bible , SO why do you keep up with your evil thinking of the Bible's exhortation to be good, full of loving deeds? love to all, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

You sound an unclear trumpet.

 

[Karraster]

tweedle dee and tweedle dum

 

[Elin]

God's righteouness is the same as His commandments. . .righteousness is something one does/works/obeys.

That's a fail.

Eph 2:8-10

- "For it is by grace (not by obedience) you have been saved, through faith (not through obedience),
--and this (salvation) not from yourselves (not because of your obedience), it is the gift of God--
not by works, so that no man can boast. For we are God's workmanship (we are the clay in which
the potter alone forms the image)." (Eph 2:8-10)

If my obedience is the reason God saves me, then I can boast that I did what my own brother did not do,
I obeyed, and he did not.
However, NT apostolic teaching is that it is all the gift of God so that I cannot boast,
for there is not one thing in all of it that I can boast about.
God gets all the glory, I get none based on my part, for I had no part.

The "not of works" of Eph 2:9 refer to works of merit not obedience.
There are no "works of merit" in the NT.
That is your own invention.

Eph 2:8 says one is saved by faith. Faith is a work.

Nope. . .your misuse of the word "work" sets the Scriptures against themselves.

In the NT, "works" refer to the works of the law (Ac 13:39; Ro 3:27-28, 20-21; Gal 2:16),
which do not save.
"Works" does not refer to the obedience/deeds of faith, and there are no deeds which result in faith.

The "work of faith" of 2Th 1:11 is the work produced by faith, not faith itself.
"We pray always for you, that our God would. . .fulfill. . .the work of (every act prompted by
your) faith with power; that the name of Jesus Chist may be glorified in you (by God's power through
your works/deeds of faith)." (2Th 1:11)

Faith itself is not a work, the obedience of faith, resulting from faith, is the work.

Faith is a free gift (Eph 1:29, 1Pe 1:1; Ac 18:37; Ro 12:2).

Repentance is a gift (2Tim 2:25; Acv 11:18, 5:31).

Righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17, 1:17, 3:21-24, 4:6, 9:30-31).

None of the above are works.

Now please, do not make it necessary to repeat this apostolic teaching to you again.

Paul NEVER taught justification by faith alone

That's a fail.

You do not even know the meaning of justification.

Your fails in understanding "works," "justification," "righteousness from God," etc.
result in your setting the Scriptures against themselves.

You neither know, nor understand, the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.

 

[Hoffco]

To me, the Bible is absolutely clear that only good persons go to Heaven; Bad persons go to Hell and later to the lake of fire. And to me, the Bible is absolutely clear as to how God made me a good person. left to me self, I would have become the worst person in the world; But that is not God's plan. God has an eternal plan for everybody He creates. And God will not fail to carry out His plan. God has told us sinners what we need to do to be saved; 1. Repent of sin. 2. Trust in Christ as our Savior. 3. Obey Jesus as our Lord. If we faithfully do this, we are guaranteed a home in Heaven when we die. If you want to be saved, this is what you must do. The Bible is the only book one needs to read to know how to be saved. Love to God and to all, Hoffco

 

[homwardbound]

In Rom 4:2 "works" refer to works of merit and not an obedient faith.

Abraham was one who sinned and did not merit his salvation, but he had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

Abrahams' obedience in obeying by leaving his house, land and kinsmen (or offering Isaac) earned him nothing.

Glad to see you do know the difference and I thank you

 

[homwardbound]

According to the Bible we are saved by Grace,by faith, By works, by baptism, by visiting the elderly. by feeding the poor. etc, etc. period..... Love to all, Hoffco

So God is a liar ans takes away what he gives?
Are you saying if the Gentile family, Cornelius's that after they received the Holy Ghost Spirit Baptism, by Faith alone as Peter started to speak by God's power not of his own, the Holy Spirit fell on them before any water Baptism, that if they did not get water Baptized, that God would have revoked waht he already did?

 

[homwardbound]

According to the Bible we are saved by Grace,by faith, By works, by baptism, by visiting the elderly. by feeding the poor. etc, etc. period..... Love to all, Hoffco

Are you sure you are not stumbling
Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Galatians 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

 

[homwardbound]

2Tim.4:7-8 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing." 1Tim. 4:16 "Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you". Elin, this should be the best demonstration a man should need. God bless, Love to all, Hoffco Doug

The good fight Paul fought is to come to rest in Father through Christ an stop his works and take on God's works
And is why he said he is dead over and over again. It was no longer him doing the works, Elin is correct and like we amd yuo we just do not always word things correctly, for the other to see what we are truly saying, when we might be saying the same things, and yet not clearly enough

So here is my ? to you Doug, are we saved initially by Faith in the finished work of Christ?

Are you saying this salvation that is a gift to us that believe, God will take away if we do not do as he asks or commands?

 

[homwardbound]

It gets sickening, seeing so much badmouthing God! As if God is soooo self centered, or cruel, as not to reward His workers. Heb. 6:10 "For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown to His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope to the end." I hate the blindness of Christians. God is a "rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Love Hoffco

And they come to rest as he is at rest. Tell me Doug are you at rest yet as you are striving hard to do?
Is there joy in what you do? or are you stressed out behind closed doors as many are?

 

[homwardbound]

There must be in our Christian work ethics a profit motive. By GRACE thru Faith, unto good works, is the only way a sinner can begin a Christian life. I receive God's free gift by faith with a promise, from God, that I will be saved by Grace alone, at that moment of salvation. I also know ,from God's word, that I must be sorry for my sins and repent of them and promise God, I will change my life style; without turning away from my sin, I have no proof that my faith is real. I know, God is no respecter of persons, I will get what I work for. God is a rewarder to those who desire Him and serve Him. If I serve sin, I will not get eternal life. The Bible is clear, If one "sows to the flesh, they reap corruption", But if one "sows to the Spirit one reaps eternal life". If one destroys this "work ethic" in the Gospel, he is the "least in the Kingdom", he will, might, be saved ,but as by fire. This is the heresy of pushing "not of works", "faith alone", to the extreme. Balance our message by saying, GRACE produces faith and works. Love to all. Hoffco

Yes Faith produces the works of God through us by Faith in the finished works of Son by Faith we are made whole, perfect by Son's death for us, Father gives us new life in the Spirit, and our old flesh is held alive of God by the Spirit, we aqre dead to sin, dead to flesh, listening and following the lead of the Spirit.
It seems to me Brother you are struggling with this truth of being dead to self and only alive to God in Spirit and truth alone, Brother can God be pleased by anyone's flesh other that Christ's?
So seeing this truth, we see that their is nothing good or bad anyone can do to please God by their own flesh, that is what Elin is trying to show you as well as me,
So let us all pray for God to do this: And trust God to do as God says:
[h=3]Romans 14:4[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

So I am not judging you, and praying you stop the judgments back, as we are God's. you included friend



Please communicate not condemn

 

[Elin]

tweedle dee and tweedle dum

And the blinded.

 

[homwardbound]

Elin, Your conclusions are not from the Bible. You define things tooo tightly. one sided, You make good works for a Christian as evil deeds, which God hates; this is not godly judgment. You and homwardbound, keep putting our good deeds down as selfish deeds of the old flesh,as sin. I think you have a good motive, but what you do, comes out of your incomplete understanding of the Bible, one sided, taken one truth to the extreme. God loves our good deeds , they come from a new good heart, pleasing to God .Just read the gospel and try to take it all in and let it teach you. Lk. 19 Zacchaeus said, " half of my money I give to the poor" Jesus praised him, "salvation has come to this house" Jesus did not condemn Him , Jesus had just saved him as gave him a new, generous, repentful heart and Jesus praised him for his good deed. This saying in churches today, "all our righteousness is as filthy rags" is very evil, condemning he good deeds of saved people. What God calls good, don't call evil. Save persons have "good deeds" , "your fruit is unto holiness, the end is eternal life" Rom.6:22. that God loves, they are fruit of our new heart, which God says, "without being good and humble and kind, like a child, you are lost. this is in the Bible , SO why do you keep up with your evil thinking of the Bible's exhortation to be good, full of loving deeds? love to all, Hoffco

Doug, sorry and at the same time not, but I see you at a very big warfare going on inside you, and you do too, You are on the way to the energy of your own flesh, this I presently see you desperately striving to be perfect before Father, and I am elated that you are on your way, I hate sin too, with a passion, and God shows us the way out by Faith in God alone to rest as God is rested Brother, Love you deeper that you realize for now

Asking God to remove the veil and if not, I trust God in knowing what God knows the reason why he does not as of yet, It took many a year for the veil I had on to be removed fully, it actually took my _________________________ to be cut off, and I was never a pedophile or a rapist for I wanted much, deep to not ever lust after a woman, put puberty id more powerful than any flesh and is why Christ had to come and do what he did for us, and I do know there are those that take it for granted, but I am trusting God to sort that out between God and them and doing the same for you right here right now,

 

[SeaBass]

That's a fail.

The "not of works" of Eph 2:9 refer to works of merit not obedience.
There are no "works of merit" in the NT.
That is your own invention.


Nope. . .your misuse of the word "work" sets the Scriptures against themselves.

In the NT, "works" refer to the works of the law (Ac 13:39; Ro 3:27-28, 20-21; Gal 2:16),
which do not save.
"Works" does not refer to the obedience/deeds of faith, and there are no deeds which result in faith.

The "work of faith" of 2Th 1:11 is the work produced by faith, not faith itself.
"We pray always for you, that our God would. . .fulfill. . .the work of (every act prompted by
your) faith with power; that the name of Jesus Chist may be glorified in you (by God's power through
your works/deeds of faith)." (2Th 1:11)

Faith itself is not a work, the obedience of faith, resulting from faith, is the work.

Faith is a free gift (Eph 1:29, 1Pe 1:1; Ac 18:37; Ro 12:2).

Repentance is a gift (2Tim 2:25; Acv 11:18, 5:31).

Righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17, 1:17, 3:21-24, 4:6, 9:30-31).

None of the above are works.

Now please, do not make it necessary to repeat this apostolic teaching to you again.


That's a fail.

You do not even know the meaning of justification.

Your fails in understanding "works," "justification," "righteousness from God," etc.
result in your setting the Scriptures against themselves.

You neither know, nor understand, the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.

1 Jn 3:17 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous"

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"

The bible says righeousness is something one does. It is a work one does in order to be righteous/accepted with God. So your argument is not with me, but with the bible. As in Rom 10:3, righteousness is something one submits to/obeys.



Again, EPh 2:9 "not of works" refers to works of merit. If you could work to earn your salvation that is something to boast about. Yet obeident works do NOT earn savlation..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10 So even after one obeys God's commands, which is do his duty, he is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Why? Because one's obedience is not perfect leaving a gap between God and man and grace is needed to cover that gap.

NOT working righteousnes, not doing righteousness means one is DERELICT in his DUTY to obey God's commands/righteousness and will not receive grace.


One last time: Rom 10:3 shows two different works:

1) going about to establish their own righteousness

The Jews were lost for they would not obey Christ's NT gospel, Rom 10:16. Instead they thought they could merit savlation by doing thier OWN righteosness. Jews would sometimes replace God's law with thier own traditions and think they could be sved by keeping thier own traditions.

2) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God

The Jews were lost for they "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" This means the Jews were lost for they would not "obey the gospel" by believing, confessing, calling upon the name of the Lord, Rom 10:9,10,13,16..."But they have not all obeyed the gospel"

Your holding to that false man-made teachings will not allow you to understand the simplicty of Rom 10:3 and that is truly a shame. Hopefully others will see it.

1 Thess 1:3 says "WORK OF FAITH". Faith describes the work being done. You reject this verse and try to change it, so I cannot help you anymore here.

Mk 2:5 Jesus SAW THEIR FAITH. What Jesus saw is the men doing WORK in removing the roof and lowering a sick man down to Him and this work is clearly called FAITH. If you still object to work being called faith, then what does faith look like that Jesus saw? What color is faith? What shape is faith? What size is faith? What texture does faith have which Jesus saw?



Repentance is work and one cannot biblcally repent without works..."But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Acts 26:20 no works = no repentance.


Jesus speaking to the Pharisees said "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Mt 21:41

Nineveh repented. Looking at Jonh 3 the king of Nineveh lead to city to rpent in ackcloth and ashes and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not"


Get that? Repentance was a WORK that God saw just like faith was a work Jesus saw in Mk 2:5.

You have not/cannot show a single verse where Paul said faith only justifies. I will show you this again, you will most likely reject it again.

Look at the ORDER OF EVENTS in Rom 6:17,18:

First, they were servants of sin.
Secondly, they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
Thirdly, then they were freed from sin/justified.

The order of events has OBEDIENCE BEFORE justification. That is why Paul says in verse 16 "obedience UNTO righteousness". You are simply trying to wrest scripture and change the order of events.

 

[homwardbound]

To me, the Bible is absolutely clear that only good persons go to Heaven; Bad persons go to Hell and later to the lake of fire. And to me, the Bible is absolutely clear as to how God made me a good person. left to me self, I would have become the worst person in the world; But that is not God's plan. God has an eternal plan for everybody He creates. And God will not fail to carry out His plan. God has told us sinners what we need to do to be saved; 1. Repent of sin. 2. Trust in Christ as our Savior. 3. Obey Jesus as our Lord. If we faithfully do this, we are guaranteed a home in Heaven when we die. If you want to be saved, this is what you must do. The Bible is the only book one needs to read to know how to be saved. Love to God and to all, Hoffco

So tell me this is there a difference before the cross and after? And please what is the difference?

 

[homwardbound]

And the blinded.

Elin Sister, reminding you and me, of the flesh is the flesh and that it is at war and wants a part of getting saved and staying saved as I am sure you might have gone through yourself, I remember my struggles in it and that because I am in this unredeemed flesh, where all sin has been condemned to (Rom. 8:3) by Christ at the cross it is always at war to be alive by deceit, to keep under law to try to not sin, which actually keeps one in sin
Love you and all, no matter if what was just said is understood or not

 

[homwardbound]

That's a fail.



1 Jn 3:17 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous"

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"

The bible says righeousness is something one does. It is a work one does in order to be righteous/accepted with God. So your argument is not with me, but with the bible. As in Rom 10:3, righteousness is something one submits to/obeys.



Again, EPh 2:9 "not of works" refers to works of merit. If you could work to earn your salvation that is something to boast about. Yet obeident works do NOT earn savlation..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." Lk 17:10 So even after one obeys God's commands, which is do his duty, he is still an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Why? Because one's obedience is not perfect leaving a gap between God and man and grace is needed to cover that gap.

NOT working righteousnes, not doing righteousness means one is DERELICT in his DUTY to obey God's commands/righteousness and will not receive grace.


One last time: Rom 10:3 shows two different works:

1) going about to establish their own righteousness

The Jews were lost for they would not obey Christ's NT gospel, Rom 10:16. Instead they thought they could merit savlation by doing thier OWN righteosness. Jews would sometimes replace God's law with thier own traditions and think they could be sved by keeping thier own traditions.

2) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God

The Jews were lost for they "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" This means the Jews were lost for they would not "obey the gospel" by believing, confessing, calling upon the name of the Lord, Rom 10:9,10,13,16..."But they have not all obeyed the gospel"

Your holding to that false man-made teachings will not allow you to understand the simplicty of Rom 10:3 and that is truly a shame. Hopefully others will see it.

1 Thess 1:3 says "WORK OF FAITH". Faith describes the work being done. You reject this verse and try to change it, so I cannot help you anymore here.

Mk 2:5 Jesus SAW THEIR FAITH. What Jesus saw is the men doing WORK in removing the roof and lowering a sick man down to Him and this work is clearly called FAITH. If you still object to work being called faith, then what does faith look like that Jesus saw? What color is faith? What shape is faith? What size is faith? What texture does faith have which Jesus saw?



Repentance is work and one cannot biblcally repent without works..."But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." Acts 26:20 no works = no repentance.


Jesus speaking to the Pharisees said "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here." Mt 21:41

Nineveh repented. Looking at Jonh 3 the king of Nineveh lead to city to rpent in ackcloth and ashes and verse 10 says "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not"


Get that? Repentance was a WORK that God saw just like faith was a work Jesus saw in Mk 2:5.

You have not/cannot show a single verse where Paul said faith only justifies. I will show you this again, you will most likely reject it again.

Look at the ORDER OF EVENTS in Rom 6:17,18:

First, they were servants of sin.
Secondly, they obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
Thirdly, then they were freed from sin/justified.

The order of events has OBEDIENCE BEFORE justification. That is why Paul says in verse 16 "obedience UNTO righteousness". You are simply trying to wrest scripture and change the order of events.

Order of events Brother order of events:

First born of the flesh, then born of the Spirit
Galatians 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Unless born again can't see or fathom the love of God by Faith alone and thus become a doer by Faith alone those that are born again are doers not hearers any longer have died to themselves, and do this daily by default, knowing the deception of flesh that masquerades as good, when only God the Father is good period and the only way is through son to become a participator not an imitator

 

[Elin]

That's a fail.

1 Jn 3:17 "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous"

Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"

The bible says righeousness is something one does. It is a work one does in order to be righteous/accepted with God. So your argument is not with me, but with the bible. As in Rom 10:3, righteousness is something one submits to/obeys.

Righteousness is a gift (Ro 5:17).

You set the Scriptures against themselves.

You do not know, nor understand the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.

 

[Hoffco]

Homwardbound , you keeping bring up this subject ,so I feel free to mention it; This is my understanding on your sexuality: You were brutally mutilated ,by force, in a rape ? or fight, ? and, it resulted in your lose of all your sex organs, Is this true? And, as a result, you were able to enter into "perfect rest" in Christ, which you were never able achieve by God's normal way of the spiritual Crucifixion of the sin nature. by the work of the Spirit in sanctification, both, regeneration and progressive growth in Christ. I think this is your testimony. Sorry, for the experience which God put you through. But,"all things work together for our good" of course. But, for me, God has not had to do the same, because my faith in Christ's "finished work" has brought to perfect peace with God concerning my forgiveness with my Father in Heaven; In this part, you and Elin and I agree, your (pl.) confusion comes from not understanding sanctification. Paul, could be at perfect peace in Christ perfect righteousness by faith, and be striving for "perfection" in his personal life , which he seeks but knows, he can never attain, this is the warfare that all Christians are in, but you two, can not understand. Elin, and you, both, "set" the scriptures "aganist itself". You stop at Rom. 5:17-18 and can not see the imparted righteousness of Rom.5: 19 -8:39. You two, see Gal.2:16, but can not understand Gal.6:7-10. the holy warfare against sin, which must be won for salvation, eternal life. You present a half salvation. Love to all, Hoffco