Salvation Not Possible Without Works
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Heb 4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
This is promised rest, like the first generation Israelites who died in the wilderness, they were still saved, but they didn't enter the rest, so too a Christian is saved, will go to heaven, but will not receive all the promises. This isn't positional glorification, this is practical glorification, rewards.
Elin, you are misunderstanding 1 John 3:9-10, it's true in our born of God nature we do not sin, but as Christians we all know that we sin all the time, we sometimes show that we are children of the devil. This simply means that we ought to show our godly nature, rather than our sinful one. Unless someone says they are perfect, they don't understand this struggle which will always be true for every CHristian until we are completely glorified.
John also says, "if anyone says they do not sin they are a liar." Can we sin? Yes.
Same with Paul, Paul isn't saying that if you sin you show you aren't saved, ch. 7 shows the stuggle of the Christian wanting not to sin but still sinning. Yes we can have victory and overcome sin, but this doesn't mean we won't or can't sin. It's ridiculous to believe otherwise. Who's really making it unsimple? Do Christians sin? Yes. Does that mean they lose their salvation? No. So can Christians sin and still remain Christians? Yes.
It's like saying that if I commit any selfish act whatsoever or do anything to annoy my wife I suddenly am guilty of not loving her. I love my wife, and yet I still struggle against being selfish and not annoying or sinning against her. Same with my belief in Jesus for eternal life. SHould everything in my life be motivated by my belief in Jesus? Yes. Is it? No, not yet.
This is promised rest, like the first generation Israelites who died in the wilderness, they were still saved, but they didn't enter the rest, so too a Christian is saved, will go to heaven, but will not receive all the promises. This isn't positional glorification, this is practical glorification, rewards.
Elin, you are misunderstanding 1 John 3:9-10, it's true in our born of God nature we do not sin, but as Christians we all know that we sin all the time, we sometimes show that we are children of the devil. This simply means that we ought to show our godly nature, rather than our sinful one. Unless someone says they are perfect, they don't understand this struggle which will always be true for every CHristian until we are completely glorified.
John also says, "if anyone says they do not sin they are a liar." Can we sin? Yes.
Same with Paul, Paul isn't saying that if you sin you show you aren't saved, ch. 7 shows the stuggle of the Christian wanting not to sin but still sinning. Yes we can have victory and overcome sin, but this doesn't mean we won't or can't sin. It's ridiculous to believe otherwise. Who's really making it unsimple? Do Christians sin? Yes. Does that mean they lose their salvation? No. So can Christians sin and still remain Christians? Yes.
It's like saying that if I commit any selfish act whatsoever or do anything to annoy my wife I suddenly am guilty of not loving her. I love my wife, and yet I still struggle against being selfish and not annoying or sinning against her. Same with my belief in Jesus for eternal life. SHould everything in my life be motivated by my belief in Jesus? Yes. Is it? No, not yet.
C
In a way, it does. Casting away one's assurance they have through Christ and drawing back into habitual sin (living in a state contrary to God's will).
More properly, that means 'to not be hearkening to the Lord' and that itself is called 'unbelief' (not being persuaded and thus, not hearkening).
We either belief (trust and hearken) or we disbelief (not persuaded and thus, not hearkening).
More properly, that means 'to not be hearkening to the Lord' and that itself is called 'unbelief' (not being persuaded and thus, not hearkening).
We either belief (trust and hearken) or we disbelief (not persuaded and thus, not hearkening).
P
[SUP]30[/SUP]By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
What if they had not went around the walls the first day? Would they have fallen? Did the the work they did cause the walls to fall?
By Faith they fell down. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...By Faith we are baptized!
What if they had not went around the walls the first day? Would they have fallen? Did the the work they did cause the walls to fall?
By Faith they fell down. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved...By Faith we are baptized!
H
Jh. 3:16 as written is very confusing. "should be saved" that is doubtful . The verb show the possibility of salvation but not a certainty. The doubt is because many believers are not saved because God did not give then the new birth. verses 3,5 and 21 says that no one can repent of sin and do good deeds without the new birth. 3:36 says obedience is necessary for salvation. verses 18-20 says natural men hate God and will not come to Jesus, so the only one who will trust and obey Jesus are the ones born of God. The key to understanding verse 16 is 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." Therefore there is no salvation with out faith in Jesus and good works that come by the new birth of the Spirit. The message of Heb. chs. 3&4 is that the first gen. of Israel was lost. They did not believe and they did not obey. Love to all, Hoffco
You were asking "please give me the scriptures that no matter what 'we' (we are discussing believers, here, yes?) do, we cannot be lost."
What separates man from God?
Sin.
Did Jesus deal with the sin issue once and for all at the Cross or didn't He?
If He didn't, please show us the sins that were not forgiven at the Cross.
This whole thread implies that laziness is the unforgivable sin. Just show us the Scripture to back that up.
Oh - the answer to your question, flawed as it is, is found in Hebrews 10:10-14:
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
-JGIG
What separates man from God?
Sin.
Did Jesus deal with the sin issue once and for all at the Cross or didn't He?
If He didn't, please show us the sins that were not forgiven at the Cross.
This whole thread implies that laziness is the unforgivable sin. Just show us the Scripture to back that up.
Oh - the answer to your question, flawed as it is, is found in Hebrews 10:10-14:
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
-JGIG
Then you believe that the Work of Christ did not deal with all sin.
Which sins? What kinds of sins? Murder, rape, theft? What about spiritual pride, slander, and divisions?
How many times must one commit which sins to 'not make it' into heaven?
Where are those lines, Biblically?
Since those lines are not there (and we both know they're not), who decides what the 'Biblical standard' is?
Notice how your focus is very much more on sin and who's committing it or not committing it rather than on Christ and building fellow believers up in Him so that HE can do HIS WORK in them to free them from the sinning they may be struggling with?
That is a HUGE distinction to make - your focus is not on HIM. It's on YOU. And the fruit is of the flesh, not of the Spirit.
-JGIG
Which sins? What kinds of sins? Murder, rape, theft? What about spiritual pride, slander, and divisions?
How many times must one commit which sins to 'not make it' into heaven?
Where are those lines, Biblically?
Since those lines are not there (and we both know they're not), who decides what the 'Biblical standard' is?
Notice how your focus is very much more on sin and who's committing it or not committing it rather than on Christ and building fellow believers up in Him so that HE can do HIS WORK in them to free them from the sinning they may be struggling with?
That is a HUGE distinction to make - your focus is not on HIM. It's on YOU. And the fruit is of the flesh, not of the Spirit.
-JGIG
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E
So can one believe and still sin?
I think Paul lets us know in rom 7 this is the case. Otherwise we would be sinless.
You do realise you may not commit the polular sins such as sexual imorality, theft or murder. But if we stood in front of God and he showed us our life, we would see so much sin we do habitually and without thought we would be horrified, and come unglued??
I think Paul lets us know in rom 7 this is the case. Otherwise we would be sinless.
You do realise you may not commit the polular sins such as sexual imorality, theft or murder. But if we stood in front of God and he showed us our life, we would see so much sin we do habitually and without thought we would be horrified, and come unglued??
C
You know my answer to that, EG. Of course one is not sinless because they believe. But, has anyone ever heard of a raping Christian? A thieving Christian? One cannot live a double-life. One is either walking with the Lord or away from the Lord or has never started the walk.
We cannot limit habitual sinning to just the horrific sins, otherwise, we would have Christians justifying their lifestyles of being Liars, Deceivers, Malingerers, Whisperers, Backbiters, Boasters, Covenant Breakers, Haters, etc.... (Rom 1:29-33)
We cannot limit habitual sinning to just the horrific sins, otherwise, we would have Christians justifying their lifestyles of being Liars, Deceivers, Malingerers, Whisperers, Backbiters, Boasters, Covenant Breakers, Haters, etc.... (Rom 1:29-33)
E
Bro. You went to the well known sins again.
I did not ask about them, I am talking of the sin of omission. The sin of pride, The sin of laziness, the sins that we may not even be aware we are committing, or do not know how much we do them, these and other sins.
Which was my point. Again, If you stood in front of Christ today in all his glory, And realized all your weak habitual sin you do on a daily basis, would you not come unglued?? As the many people who did have this happen to them did?
when we start thinking we are ok because we do not STRUGGLE with the popular sins, We are in deep deep trouble. and will be like the pharisees, will we not?
I did not ask about them, I am talking of the sin of omission. The sin of pride, The sin of laziness, the sins that we may not even be aware we are committing, or do not know how much we do them, these and other sins.
Which was my point. Again, If you stood in front of Christ today in all his glory, And realized all your weak habitual sin you do on a daily basis, would you not come unglued?? As the many people who did have this happen to them did?
when we start thinking we are ok because we do not STRUGGLE with the popular sins, We are in deep deep trouble. and will be like the pharisees, will we not?
Your answer is....................
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
E
I must ask why people want to crucify Christ again, And put him to open shame, stating he did not finish his work on the cross.
The key point is the word IF
If can be translated 3 ways
If (and they will) ie when it happens
If (maybe they will maybe they will not) ie, if this happens to you
If (but they can not) ie if it could happen
Hebrews was written to those going back to law. Going back to law (like Just me here wants us all to do) teaches that when one is in sin, they fall away. And a sacrifice must be given to make amends, or pay for them falling into sis.
This is what paul is warning here, If your going back to law. To a religion that teaches lose of salvation. Then you put Christ to open shame.
As JGIG so elequently answered this question already, it seems some people did not listen.
Hebrews 10:10-14:
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.