The Letter to the Romans...

[Hoffco]

SeaBass, all your argument is with God, and your are arguing with God because of your sinful fault ,you will not accept the GOD of the Bible, a very prideful fault,error. BUT, I would tell you my reasoning, which I think is Biblical. God and I are both 100% responsible for my salvation. I am responsible to Repent trust and obey;
BUT, God is working behind the scene and pulling all the right stings to save me. And I would rather be a "puppet" on God's strings than Satans "puppet". The illustration leave a lot to be desired. LOL, but ,I like it.

 

[homwardbound]

GOd owing or not owing me something has nothing to do with it.

--If I have no role or part in my salvation
--God has made being "spiritually born" necessary to being save
--I cannot choose to be "spiritually baptized" or "spiritually baptize" myself or force God to "spiritually baptize"
--so if I am not "spiritually baptized", whose fault is that?

The calling is plain and simple to believe or not beleive, that simple, for Christ took on all sin of the world, past, present and future period through his shed blood this is a done fact.
all that is left is to beleive and become as God leads you, as one gives up self works, deeper and deeper the more one comes to see it is all God and none of us. except that we committed to believe God over man and self efforts

Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This is God's operation not man's?

Colossians 2:12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

 

[homwardbound]

The bible does not teach men are born lost. Jesus was not born lost.
?

Jesus was and is the only one born of the Virgin, do you believe this? No earth Father?
So if you do beleive Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, and no one else is, then does that not separate man flesh from Jesus flesh?
And tell me can any flesh outside of Christ's ever please God ever?

 

[homwardbound]

SeaBass, all your argument is with God, and your are arguing with God because of your sinful fault ,you will not accept the GOD of the Bible, a very prideful fault,error. BUT, I would tell you my reasoning, which I think is Biblical. God and I are both 100% responsible for my salvation. I am responsible to Repent trust and obey;
BUT, God is working behind the scene and pulling all the right stings to save me. And I would rather be a "puppet" on God's strings than Satans "puppet". The illustration leave a lot to be desired. LOL, but ,I like it.

Now Doug, that is the free choice for each to make as to who one wants to serve and God will teach us from there making that choice, God is gracious and begins the good work in each of us and we grow by relating all things good or bad that happen to us while here to God in trust and we see through the Fog on unto Home and are set free while still in adversity, Love to you and all as we all are growing here together, even if it appears separate at times, looking behind the cloud
From me, Howard

 

[Elin]

GOd owing or not owing me something has nothing to do with it.

--If I have no role or part in my salvation
--God has made being "spiritually born" necessary to being save
--I cannot choose to be "spiritually baptized" or "spiritually baptize" myself or force God to "spiritually baptize"
--so if I am not "spiritually baptized", whose fault is that?

It has everything to do with your faulting God for not being saved.

God can be faulted only if you does not give you what he owes you.

God does not owe you salvation, therefore, he cannot be faulted for not giving you what he does not owe you,
just as the law cannot be faulted for not giving you a driver's license at age 13.

It is your false human reasoning that is to be faulted.

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Jesus was and is the only one born of the Virgin, do you believe this? No earth Father?
So if you do beleive Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, and no one else is, then does that not separate man flesh from Jesus flesh?
And tell me can any flesh outside of Christ's ever please God ever?

Homeward, Mary is from the Adamic race therefore her flesh is from Adam, and so is Jesus' flesh from Adam! If not all on the cross is in vain! He came just like us so He could redeem us! Why do you think it needs to be separate?

 

[Hoffco]

Homeward, Mary is from the Adamic race therefore her flesh is from Adam, and so is Jesus' flesh from Adam! If not all on the cross is in vain! He came just like us so He could redeem us! Why do you think it needs to be separate?

Because Jesus is sinless, born without sin; We are born in sin and/so are sinners. Jesus had no "body of sin" another tern for no sinful nature. Our bodies are not sinful, they are cursed by sin so our bodies will die. I would think, Jesus body would have died someday, being in a cursed human body, but with no sin nature. Jesus' heart was not desperately wicked as ours is. "He knew no sin" 2Cor.5:21. "separate from sinners" 7:26.

 

[homwardbound]

Homeward, Mary is from the Adamic race therefore her flesh is from Adam, and so is Jesus' flesh from Adam! If not all on the cross is in vain! He came just like us so He could redeem us! Why do you think it needs to be separate?

No earthy Father: yes in the lineage of Adam, but not by man, born a life-giving Spirit and no one else pleased God. Christ's perfection without sin did and is now risen for us in Spirit for God's Spirit to now live in and through us. Us giving God, and Son praise and them giving us praise in perfect fellowship along with all the Saints in Christ, busy in praise to each other and never self, self is out of the way, and we are called to praise God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost our connecter to Father and Son.
Christ's flesh is the only flesh that ever pleased God get it? Christ came to give us his life and this came to start at the death where he took away the sin of the world, and cleansed us all in Father's sight, why?

So Father could live in us, seeing us as perfect through Son our propitiation for not only our sins but for the whole worlds.
Praying you get this from Father to us we are by Son redeemed, reconciled, forgiven, made right, not ever of one's self, if of one's self ever there is room to boast, but by Faith there is no room for boasting Faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus for you.
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

No one else is a life-giving Spirit in all truth, that is what separates Christ from us. And so through him we are made one with him, by trusting Father he did do waht he said he came to do and that is:
John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.


Yet notice the first part, thief, who today is the thief? Could it be one's emotions of anger?

 

[SeaBass]

You didn't read Eph 2:3; Jn 3:18, 36, did you?

And Jesus was not a son of Adam.

You don't know or understand the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.

I gave proof that Eph 2:3 does not teach what you are twisting it to say. The text does not say they wre naturally born children of wrath but it is what they made themselves to become byhabitual praciticing sin.

Again:
it is also significant that the verb (were) is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language therefore stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility. Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.


Jn 3:18 it is the state of unbelief that God precondemned. God did not before the world began uncondtionally pre-condemn anyone. Therefore if you, of your own free will, do not believe then you PUT YOURSELF in that precondemned state. If you of your own free will choose to believe, then you move out of that precondemned state of unbelief into a saved state of believing.

God does not force men to not believe else God then is at fault and is responsible for the lost unbelievers.

Jn 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

It's your own free will choice if you choose to believe or not believe. Verse 36 gives you the consequence of which you choose.

If you choose to believe then you will have everlasting life.

On the other hand if you choose to not obey (not believe) then you shall not see life.

God predetermined the consequence for believing and for not believing but YOU CHOOSE FOR YOURSELF if you believe or not, and thereby choose for yourself the consequence.

 

[SeaBass]

And Jesus was not a son of Adam.

You don't know or understand the Scriptures well enough to represent them correctly.

Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Jesus was in ALL THINGS "made like unto his brethren". So if His brethren were born sinners, so was Jesus.

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, all your argument is with God, and your are arguing with God because of your sinful fault ,you will not accept the GOD of the Bible, a very prideful fault,error. BUT, I would tell you my reasoning, which I think is Biblical. God and I are both 100% responsible for my salvation. I am responsible to Repent trust and obey;
BUT, God is working behind the scene and pulling all the right stings to save me. And I would rather be a "puppet" on God's strings than Satans "puppet". The illustration leave a lot to be desired. LOL, but ,I like it.

You post " I am responsible to Repent trust and obey;"

This is what God has told men to do to. So if you repent, trust and obey then you are working GOD's RIGHTEOUSNESS. you are obeying God's commands. And there is no way possible for you to ever be righteous without doing God's righteousness in repenting, trusting and obeying.
NOT repenting, trusting and obeying is doing UNrighteousness and you would remain UNrighteous until you DO righteousness by repenting, trusting and obeying.


You post "God is working behind the scene and pulling all the right stings to save me"

No, God has already told you what to do, repent, trust and obey. So it is up to YOU to choose to do this righteousness of God or not, God is not going to force you to or not to...it's your choice. If the only way for one to be saved is by God "pulling stirngs" then God would be at fault for the lost if He did not pull the right strings for them

 

[SeaBass]

The calling is plain and simple to believe or not beleive, that simple, for Christ took on all sin of the world, past, present and future period through his shed blood this is a done fact.
all that is left is to beleive and become as God leads you, as one gives up self works, deeper and deeper the more one comes to see it is all God and none of us. except that we committed to believe God over man and self efforts

Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This is God's operation not man's?

Colossians 2:12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Yes, YOU choose for yourself to believe or not believe, that is not a choice God made for you before the world began. If before the world began God predetermined for you that "Homwardbound" will NOT believe then you will never be able to come to believe and be saved and that would be God's fault for preventing you coming to believe in Christ.

The problem is that Calivnists want God to have 100% control over your salvation, therefore you have 100% NO role in your own salvation to choose to whether you believe or not. So if God is 100% control of salvation and you have 0% control, that makes God 100% responsible for those that are saved and 100% responsible and at fault for those that are lost.

Jn 3:16 God has promised you, Homwardbound, that if you "believeth" you should not perish > be saved. Yet if God predetermines against your own free will that you will not believe then God is 100% responsible for your unbelief.

Then on judgment day God says to "Homwardbound" I told you that if you believe you would be saved and if you do not believe you will be lost. I even COMMANDED you to believe. But since you did not believe you will be lost.

Homwardbound: "But God, you did not allow me to believe, you FORCED me into unbelief. You made it IMPOSSIBLE for me to obey YOUR COMMAND to believe"

God (Elin): "But I did not owe you salvation".

Homwardbound "No, but you made a PROMISE to me (whosoever) in Jn 3:16 that if I believe I should be saved. Are you going back on your promise? Or was this promise of Jn 3:16 just a lie to me to begin with for you NEVER really wanted me (whosoever) to obey the command to believe and be saved?"



Elin: "...uhhhhh..."

 

[SeaBass]

Jesus was and is the only one born of the Virgin, do you believe this? No earth Father?
So if you do beleive Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, and no one else is, then does that not separate man flesh from Jesus flesh?
And tell me can any flesh outside of Christ's ever please God ever?

Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Jesus was in ALL THINGS "made like unto his brethren". So if His brethren were born sinners, so was Jesus.

 

[SeaBass]

It has everything to do with your faulting God for not being saved.

God can be faulted only if you does not give you what he owes you.

God does not owe you salvation, therefore, he cannot be faulted for not giving you what he does not owe you,
just as the law cannot be faulted for not giving you a driver's license at age 13.

It is your false human reasoning that is to be faulted.

God has made promises to all men (whosoever):

Heb 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"

2 Thess 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"



God did not have to save mankind but because of His grace, God made salvation possible for men through Christ. Salvation through Christ came with these two promises?


Does God have to keep these promises He has made to man?


Again, God did not owe salvation to man but because of His grace He made salvation available. So "God does not owe savlation" does not apply since God has made salvation possible for man and that salvation came with promises to all men. So can God now back out of these promises and simply say "I do not own you savlation, no matter what I promised"?

 

[Hoffco]

SeaBass, your self centered "free will" corrupts every doctrine in the Bible to logical tom foolery. You have "logically" condemned God for judging our first parents, saying that God did not change their "very good" nature to a fallen sinful nature, dead to God. You are believing the Devil's lie,"you will not die". So, that, you say no one is born with a sinful nature. death, really didn't come because of Adams sin. You logically,by "free will" call God a lier, "you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you"(lie). AND, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated",(lie). You say the bible lied, because if GOD is sovereignty, like the Bible says, He, GOD, takes away our "free will", because His chose rules over our chose. You are rewriting god's?? word because whoever wrote it, did not do a good job. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

God has a covenant promise with His eternal Son, to save all those whom He has loved (beforehand, foreknown), predestined, called, justified, glorified. I call it, God's eternal covenant of grace. The covenant elect ones are "the children" the Father gave to the eternal Son, His "sheep", the "remnant of grace". All to the glory of God! love to all, Hoffco

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, your self centered "free will" corrupts every doctrine in the Bible to logical tom foolery. You have "logically" condemned God for judging our first parents, saying that God did not change their "very good" nature to a fallen sinful nature, dead to God. You are believing the Devil's lie,"you will not die". So, that, you say no one is born with a sinful nature. death, really didn't come because of Adams sin. You logically,by "free will" call God a lier, "you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you"(lie). AND, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated",(lie). You say the bible lied, because if GOD is sovereignty, like the Bible says, He, GOD, takes away our "free will", because His chose rules over our chose. You are rewriting god's?? word because whoever wrote it, did not do a good job. Love to all, Hoffco

Men can use their God given free will to be self-centered. Men can also use their God given free will to humbly submit unto the will of God.

Man does not have a sinful nature, he is still in the image of God, 1 Cor 11:7.


"The Bible reveals that man still retains the image of God after the Fall. Genesis 9:6 states: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.” According to this passage, fallen man still bears the image of God. The record of Adam and Eve’s fall had been recorded earlier in the book of Genesis; that man had become a rank sinner is stated clearly in the immediate context of the passage (“…every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood”—8:21). Although God’s assessment is correct in regard to mankind, murder is forbidden because man is made in the image of God—that is, he still bears that image. If one argues that this passage speaks only about the past and says nothing about the future, he does violence to the meaning of the passage. Moses, writing about 2,500 years after the Fall, said that the reason murder is wrong is because the victim is someone created in the image of God. If man no longer bears the image of God after the Fall, these words would have been meaningless to the Israelites (and are worthless for man today).


In the New Testament, one can read where James wrote: “But the tongue can no man tame; it is a restless evil, it is full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we the Lord and Father; and therewith curse we men, who are made after the likeness of God” (3:8-9, emp. added). The English verb “are made” ([SIZE=-1]ASV[/SIZE]) derives from the Greek gegonotas, which is the perfect participle of the verb ginomai. The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe an action brought to completion in the past, but whose effects are felt in the present. For example, when the Bible says, “It is written,” this is usually in the perfect tense. Scripture was written in the past, but is applicable to the present. The thrust of the Greek expression translated “who are made after the likeness of God,” is that humans in the past have been made according to the likeness of God and they are still bearers of that likeness. For this reason, it is inconsistent to worship God and curse men with the same tongue."


Was the "Image of God" Destroyed by Sin?

http://www.apologeticspress.com/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=564
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]by [/TD]
[TD]Eric Lyons, M.Min.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[SeaBass]

God has a covenant promise with His eternal Son, to save all those whom He has loved (beforehand, foreknown), predestined, called, justified, glorified. I call it, God's eternal covenant of grace. The covenant elect ones are "the children" the Father gave to the eternal Son, His "sheep", the "remnant of grace". All to the glory of God! love to all, Hoffco

God did not predestinate certain individuals unconditionally.

God foreknew, predestined a class, a group called Christians.

So anyone that obeys the gospel then becomes part of that foreknown group.

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, YOU choose for yourself to believe or not believe, that is not a choice God made for you before the world began. If before the world began God predetermined for you that "Homwardbound" will NOT believe then you will never be able to come to believe and be saved and that would be God's fault for preventing you coming to believe in Christ.

The problem is that Calivnists want God to have 100% control over your salvation, therefore you have 100% NO role in your own salvation to choose to whether you believe or not. So if God is 100% control of salvation and you have 0% control, that makes God 100% responsible for those that are saved and 100% responsible and at fault for those that are lost.

Jn 3:16 God has promised you, Homwardbound, that if you "believeth" you should not perish > be saved. Yet if God predetermines against your own free will that you will not believe then God is 100% responsible for your unbelief.

Then on judgment day God says to "Homwardbound" I told you that if you believe you would be saved and if you do not believe you will be lost. I even COMMANDED you to believe. But since you did not believe you will be lost.

Homwardbound: "But God, you did not allow me to believe, you FORCED me into unbelief. You made it IMPOSSIBLE for me to obey YOUR COMMAND to believe"

God (Elin): "But I did not owe you salvation".

Homwardbound "No, but you made a PROMISE to me (whosoever) in Jn 3:16 that if I believe I should be saved. Are you going back on your promise? Or was this promise of Jn 3:16 just a lie to me to begin with for you NEVER really wanted me (whosoever) to obey the command to believe and be saved?"



Elin: "...uhhhhh..."

So seabass are you called? is not everyone called, all that is left is to either beleive God or not is that true, for all will have the conscious choice to make and know the circumstances leaving man without an excuse to their destination, when man freely chooses it, to beleive or not.
And it is not God who chooses whether one believes God or not, it is God that sees who will or will not believe and pours out his love regardless and offers redemption in love to all, which leaves man with no justifiable excuse as this is for you right here right now to decide truth over error.

Love you deeper than you know

 

[homwardbound]

Heb 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Jesus was in ALL THINGS "made like unto his brethren". So if His brethren were born sinners, so was Jesus.

Okay then, thank you and am elated over free choice, thank you Father for Son as perfect for me to be seen the same through Son Christ the only perfect one ever, our second Adam not our first that we are first born with from the womb