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M
A false teaching about grace is that grace alone saves us. Titus 2:11, Ephesians 2:8. But grace, in and of itself, is not going to save anybody. Oh, it may make it available, it may make it here and available for us, but just because something's here doesn't mean we've accessed it.
The Bible teaches that a person must do certain things to be right with God. Not that we earn our salvation, but because God has said it, we must do it. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus taught it's not everybody that looks up into heaven and says “Lord, Lord” that's going there, listen, “but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Jesus condemned the Jews, and He said to them in Luke 6:46, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” The Bible teaches in John 14:15 if you love Jesus, you must keep His commandments. The Hebrews writer said in Hebrews 5:8-9 that Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him.” Yes, Ephesians 2:8 teaches that salvation is by grace, but don't forget the latter part, “through faith, that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” Salvation is made possible by God's grace, but it's accessed through my faith. And so it's not grace alone that saves a person.
But then there's another false teaching, once I obey the gospel, once I become a Christian, once I've been enveloped by God's grace, there's nothing I can ever do to lose that salvation, and I can never get outside the umbrella of God's grace. Well, is that what the scriptures teach? Do the scriptures teach once saved always saved, that a person cannot fall from grace? Now, here's what's so interesting about that. The scriptures not only don't teach that idea, the scriptures explicitly condemn that. Think about several examples. In Acts chapter 8, Simon the sorcerer has just obeyed the gospel. In his previous life, he was a magician. You might use that term to represent what Simon did. He was a trickster by the sleight of the hand, by movements too quick for the eye. And so he was a magician. He now obeys the gospel, and for the very first time, Simon sees a real, bona fide miracle. And so he says, he reverts back to his old life and he says I'll give you money if you give me that power. And Peter says this, “Your money perish,” listen now, “with you.” Your heart is not right. You have neither part nor portion in this matter. You need to repent and pray to God that the evil thought of your heart might be forgiven you.
Now, what was going to perish? Your money was going to perish with you. If there is ever a clear cut case of someone who was a child of God, baptized by an inspired man of God, an apostle, and he fell and was going to be lost, this is it. You can't get much clearer than that. Simon came under the umbrella of grace. He was saved by the grace of God, and he sinned and fell outside that grace.
There goes the theory, OSAS.
The Bible teaches that a person must do certain things to be right with God. Not that we earn our salvation, but because God has said it, we must do it. In Matthew 7:21, Jesus taught it's not everybody that looks up into heaven and says “Lord, Lord” that's going there, listen, “but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Jesus condemned the Jews, and He said to them in Luke 6:46, “Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?” The Bible teaches in John 14:15 if you love Jesus, you must keep His commandments. The Hebrews writer said in Hebrews 5:8-9 that Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him.” Yes, Ephesians 2:8 teaches that salvation is by grace, but don't forget the latter part, “through faith, that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.” Salvation is made possible by God's grace, but it's accessed through my faith. And so it's not grace alone that saves a person.
But then there's another false teaching, once I obey the gospel, once I become a Christian, once I've been enveloped by God's grace, there's nothing I can ever do to lose that salvation, and I can never get outside the umbrella of God's grace. Well, is that what the scriptures teach? Do the scriptures teach once saved always saved, that a person cannot fall from grace? Now, here's what's so interesting about that. The scriptures not only don't teach that idea, the scriptures explicitly condemn that. Think about several examples. In Acts chapter 8, Simon the sorcerer has just obeyed the gospel. In his previous life, he was a magician. You might use that term to represent what Simon did. He was a trickster by the sleight of the hand, by movements too quick for the eye. And so he was a magician. He now obeys the gospel, and for the very first time, Simon sees a real, bona fide miracle. And so he says, he reverts back to his old life and he says I'll give you money if you give me that power. And Peter says this, “Your money perish,” listen now, “with you.” Your heart is not right. You have neither part nor portion in this matter. You need to repent and pray to God that the evil thought of your heart might be forgiven you.
Now, what was going to perish? Your money was going to perish with you. If there is ever a clear cut case of someone who was a child of God, baptized by an inspired man of God, an apostle, and he fell and was going to be lost, this is it. You can't get much clearer than that. Simon came under the umbrella of grace. He was saved by the grace of God, and he sinned and fell outside that grace.
There goes the theory, OSAS.
E
And who said I claimed this?
No. Actually the bible says we can not do anything to EARN the right to be with God. It says there is non righteous, no not one.
Yes, it is through faith.
But faith and works are intertwined. You can not have true faiht and not have works, It is impossible. Only those who have a mere belief will have no works (dead faith)
As for matt 7. it is not talking to people who have mere belief, Because they had works. It is talking to people who NEVER KNEW CHRIST (ie were never saved)
Now how can one have works, yet never be saved (God never knew them??
come now. If I can never do enough work to GAIN salvation. How could I ever do not enough work to lose it? This is a contradiction in itself.
It says I can't earn it, But I must earn it (to keep it) Why not just admit up front you believe you have to earn it, because thats what your really saying.
yet the verses I posted as well as bookend, PROVES your theory incorrect.
But you did not even respond to those verses or passages.. why is this? Are you trying to be tricky.
Again, if you want to try to EARN grace, You will reject grace, grace and works can not lix. God makes this clear.
if it is of grace it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
No. Actually the bible says we can not do anything to EARN the right to be with God. It says there is non righteous, no not one.
Yes, it is through faith.
But faith and works are intertwined. You can not have true faiht and not have works, It is impossible. Only those who have a mere belief will have no works (dead faith)
As for matt 7. it is not talking to people who have mere belief, Because they had works. It is talking to people who NEVER KNEW CHRIST (ie were never saved)
Now how can one have works, yet never be saved (God never knew them??
come now. If I can never do enough work to GAIN salvation. How could I ever do not enough work to lose it? This is a contradiction in itself.
It says I can't earn it, But I must earn it (to keep it) Why not just admit up front you believe you have to earn it, because thats what your really saying.
yet the verses I posted as well as bookend, PROVES your theory incorrect.
But you did not even respond to those verses or passages.. why is this? Are you trying to be tricky.
Again, if you want to try to EARN grace, You will reject grace, grace and works can not lix. God makes this clear.
if it is of grace it is not of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
M
The only time that God uses faith alone, He says the exact opposite of what millions are saying, what Martin Luther and the Methodist Book of Discipline teach, and what multiplied millions of people believe con*cerning that “all a person has to do to be saved is have faith alone.”
God mentions “faith only” one time, and there He says that a person is not justified by faith alone! The concept of being “justified” means “just as if I had never sinned.” But a person is not forgiven, is not a child of God, and is not redeemed at the point of faith alone! So while such a con*cept may be popular, and while many may agree that it is a comforting doctrine, the Bible does not teach that faith alone will save a person.
If we are going to show today that at the point of belief, a person is not saved, what would we have to do? We would need to present some clear-cut cases in Scripture of people who believed in Jesus, yet who were still lost. If we can do that, then we can show clearly that faith alone is not the point at which a person is saved.
God mentions “faith only” one time, and there He says that a person is not justified by faith alone! The concept of being “justified” means “just as if I had never sinned.” But a person is not forgiven, is not a child of God, and is not redeemed at the point of faith alone! So while such a con*cept may be popular, and while many may agree that it is a comforting doctrine, the Bible does not teach that faith alone will save a person.
If we are going to show today that at the point of belief, a person is not saved, what would we have to do? We would need to present some clear-cut cases in Scripture of people who believed in Jesus, yet who were still lost. If we can do that, then we can show clearly that faith alone is not the point at which a person is saved.
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E
No your wrong.
eph 2: 8-9. For by grave you HAVE BEEN saved by faith not works.
Faith minus works = faith alone.
Romans 4. Abraham was saved by faith, not works
Faith minus works = faith alone
John 3: 16, Whoever believes in the name of jesus has eternal life. (no works.)
I can go on and on and on, but you get the picture.
Why do you want to earn a gift?
do you not know you MOCK the savior when you try to earn something he wants to FREELY GIVE YOU by Grace? Why do you have FAITH in self. and not FAITH in God?
eph 2: 8-9. For by grave you HAVE BEEN saved by faith not works.
Faith minus works = faith alone.
Romans 4. Abraham was saved by faith, not works
Faith minus works = faith alone
John 3: 16, Whoever believes in the name of jesus has eternal life. (no works.)
I can go on and on and on, but you get the picture.
Why do you want to earn a gift?
do you not know you MOCK the savior when you try to earn something he wants to FREELY GIVE YOU by Grace? Why do you have FAITH in self. and not FAITH in God?
Charles Stanley
I contend that if one professes Christ as Lord and savior and lives in willful sin all their life, and dies in that condition, then their repentance and faith was not genuine. This type of christian has a false hope, a spurious faith, they are only interested with whats on the Master's table and not the Master Himself. Their faith is more or less like a life insurance policy, once you sign up your good to go. The bible teaches works are a product of faith, and this is how faith and works are unseparable. True faith leads to good works, but our salvation is through faith alone.
I contend that if one professes Christ as Lord and savior and lives in willful sin all their life, and dies in that condition, then their repentance and faith was not genuine. This type of christian has a false hope, a spurious faith, they are only interested with whats on the Master's table and not the Master Himself. Their faith is more or less like a life insurance policy, once you sign up your good to go. The bible teaches works are a product of faith, and this is how faith and works are unseparable. True faith leads to good works, but our salvation is through faith alone.
M
God mentions “faith only” one time, and there He says that a person is not justified by faith alone! The concept of being “justified” means “just as if I had never sinned.” But a person is not forgiven, is not a child of God, and is not redeemed at the point of faith alone! So while such a concept may be popular, and while many may agree that it is a comforting doctrine, the Bible does not teach that faith alone will save a person.
Skimming the bible causes people not to see the whole message, just like John 3:16, why do people use this to say that all you have to do is believe when just 5 or 6 verses below John 3:16 you have the rest of the story, which is baptism, why do they do that? They do that because they don't study and read the bible correctly and they end up getting the wrong answer. If you read it correctly, this is what you would of seen, [SUP]16 [/SUP]“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. [SUP]17 [/SUP]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[SUP][g][/SUP]”
[h=3]John the Baptist Exalts Jesus[/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]At this time John the Baptist was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there was plenty of water there; and people kept coming to him for baptism. [SUP]24 [/SUP](This was before John was thrown into prison.) [SUP]25 [/SUP]A debate broke out between John’s disciples and a certain Jew[SUP][h][/SUP] over ceremonial cleansing. [SUP]26 [/SUP]So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.[SUP][g][/SUP]”
[h=3]John the Baptist Exalts Jesus[/h][SUP]22 [/SUP]Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]At this time John the Baptist was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there was plenty of water there; and people kept coming to him for baptism. [SUP]24 [/SUP](This was before John was thrown into prison.) [SUP]25 [/SUP]A debate broke out between John’s disciples and a certain Jew[SUP][h][/SUP] over ceremonial cleansing. [SUP]26 [/SUP]So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.
I repeat, if one can CONFESS, it is a bi-product of the work of the Holy Spirit in the Heart, where in his heart he chose to surrender and receive JESUS as LORD, being saved instantly. THEREFORE it is not the Verbal Confession that saved, that was a DONE DEAL in an instant, HOWEVER if the Conversion was Genuine, every true Believer will want to CONFESS Jesus as his personal LORD and Master.
Here we go again, another Christian that now thinks He no longer commits sin.
Do you know why you jump to that erroneous conclusion? You fail to understand that the Greek has four primary verb tenses, while English only has three primary verb tenses (past tense, present tense, and future tense.) Greek also has the Perfect Tense. That tense describes a lifestyle of continually doing that verb. John is EXTREMELY fond of the that tense in his writings, especially in 1 John. If you do not understand that verb tense, you will jump to the wrong conclusion and think he is describing the perfection of one's walk, while he was describing the direction of one's walk, and not implying perfection. Yes perfection is the goal of the direction we are to walk, but in really we will not be perfect until the LORD calls us out and gives us that perfect, glorified body.
1 John 1:7-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] If we say, “We have no sin,” we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If we say, “We don’t have any sin,” we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
If we keep on striving to walk in the light, is what the Greek Perfect tense is implying.
By the same token, the perfect tense, is saying "we are continually decieving ourselves", if we say we have no sin.
NOW look at the next verse, that perfect tense of "confess" implies a lifestyle of continually confessing each new sin. While HE is continually faithful, and continually forgiving each sin confessed.
NOW I ASK YOU, if you theory of becoming sinless in this body were correct, WHY WOULD HE BE TELLING US THAT A GENUINE CHRISTIAN'S LIFESTYLE WILL BE CHARACTERIZED BY CONTINUALLY CONFESSING EACH NEW SIN AS IT ARISES?
THEREFORE, in these verses:
1 John 2:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected. This is how we know we are in Him:
The verb keep and keeps are both in the PERFECT TENSE implying a lifestyle of Striving to KEEP. He is NOT talking about perfection, but rather Direction.
As Dr. John MacArthur once put it:
A CHRISTIAN IS NOT SINLESS,
HOWEVER,
AS HE OR SHE MATURES SPIRITUALLY, THEY WILL SIN LESS, AND LESS, AND LESS.
THEY WILL NOT BECOME TOTALLY SINLESS UNTIL WE RECEIVE THAT GLORIFIED, SINLESS, NEW BODY.
Apparently you claim to be sinless now, so let's put that to TEST of Scripture:
Romans 3:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Notice He did not say fell short.
Romans 3:10 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] as it is written: There is no one righteous, not even one.
Romans 3:12 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] All have turned away; all alike have become useless. There is no one who does what is good, not even one.
1 John 3:17 (NIV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
If you are sinless, then you must be the most generous giver on the planet.
James 4:16-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
OH, OH, there are sins of OMISSION as well as COMISSION.
How much of everything that is in your life is of FAITH?
Romans 14:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith:
for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Better yet, GIVE ME THE CHAPTER AND VERSE that says it is a sin to give a Church a Name or Title.
Here are the 11 places the name of the Church is given as "Church of God" (or its variant):
Acts 20:28, 1 Corinthians 1:2, 10:32, 11:22, 15:9, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Galatians 1:13, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 2 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 Timothy 3:5, 3:15
It amazes me that so many believe that genuine faith requires nothing. Genuine active faith has the fruit of good works, or it's not faith at all. "You shall know them by their fruit"
John the baptist taught fruits meet (necessary) for repentance. Actually, true repentance is exactly that..... it shows evidence.
The modern church shows little evidence of a changed life. That's one of the reasons so many people are going to church & don't know they're not saved.... they see they're like everybody else & believe they are.
Philippians 4:13 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 3:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
John the baptist taught fruits meet (necessary) for repentance. Actually, true repentance is exactly that..... it shows evidence.
The modern church shows little evidence of a changed life. That's one of the reasons so many people are going to church & don't know they're not saved.... they see they're like everybody else & believe they are.
Philippians 4:13 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Philippians 3:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, [SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
M
I didn't say it is a sin but, here is your CHAPTER AND VERSE:
Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Notice "my church", not baptist, catholic, lutheran...but MY CHURCH, Jesus church, the Church of Christ.
Matthew 16:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Notice "my church", not baptist, catholic, lutheran...but MY CHURCH, Jesus church, the Church of Christ.
E
so we ignore all the passages i just posted?
James is telling you and me to test our faith, to make sure it is a real faith and not a "dead" or non existent faith,
there is no such thing as a faith which does not produce works, but paul did not lie, when he said we are saved by faith not works (faith alone)
Do you think a person who has a dead faith was ever saved? I agree with james, They never did, it was dead, they decieved themselves. they were NEVER saved.
why won't you agree with Paul?
Ephesians 2:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 3:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 4:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Galatians 2:16 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 4:3 (ASV)
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
WORKS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Good Works are the Bi-product of genuine saving faith, NOT the means to get saved. Salvation comes first, THEN we walk in good works.
John 6:47 (HCSB)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace!
Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not from works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 3:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 (ASV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 4:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Galatians 2:16 (ASV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Romans 4:3 (ASV)
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
WORKS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Good Works are the Bi-product of genuine saving faith, NOT the means to get saved. Salvation comes first, THEN we walk in good works.
John 6:47 (HCSB)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life.